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number9

Tomas Tatar Is Jiri Hudler 2.0

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I'm not saying I necessarily think those guys are going to lead us to a cup, but there was a time when people said Datsyuk and Zetterberg were never going to lead the Wings to a cup either.

But you gotta be real also, Andersson, Abby, Helm and Emmerton are bottom 6 guys. Helm and Abby especially are good at it, but you don't really say Draper and Maltby lead us to cups do you? But they are important pieces, and I think Helm will be a key part of the team for a long time. Assuming he can get past his injury troubles of late.

Tatar and Nyquist are maybe not the 2nd coming of D and Z, but they both have potential as top 6 scorers. Maybe not the guys you build your team around but still good players.

And you are counting out Järnkrok way too early. He has a big role on his team in the SEL and is doing alright. He is very skilled and is probably the closest thing we have to a possible 'replacement' for D or Z in our own system.

He is 9th in scoring this year, and that is on a bit of a struggling team and without last year's top scorer Silfverberg on his line. If you compare his stats to those of Zetterberg's before he came over they're very close. Whether that will translate to the same kind of NHL success is anyone's guess.

We need to pick up Slifverberg. I dont care if he sucks. We need more bergs.

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Look out HOF, here comes tatar! right........ Just for reference, tatar's best season in GR was 58 points. Emmerton......52. Nothing to see here, please move along......

Don't make stuff up.

Emmerton best season in GR was 38 points and he was older than Tatar is now who is on pace to score more than 70 this year.

Move along

Really?

Looks like we are ranked 3rd in terms of Prospect depth in the NHL but I am surprised they didnt ask for your scouting report since it seems so accurate

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1372

He made it up

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Look out HOF, here comes tatar! right........ Just for reference, tatar's best season in GR was 58 points. Emmerton......52. Nothing to see here, please move along......

Tatar has similar points per game to Emmerton's best year in GR, .55/game for Tatar & .59/game for Emmerton, as a 19 year old getting his first exposure to North American hockey. That best year for Emmerton was when he was 23. Tatar, who is 22 as of December 1st, is currently sitting at .88 points per game in GR this season. So yeah, nothing to see here when it comes to comparing Tatar to an at best career 12th/13th forward.

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I haven't seen much out of Tatar yet, but it's kind of ridiculous the way the fan base keeps waiting for every low draft pick coming through the system to be the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg. That just doesn't happen. There also was no salary cap at the time those 2 were drafted, so it's not like Holland was expecting to hit on guys like that to be cornerstones of the franchise. Guys like Grigorenko and Robert Lang more or less failed, yet that WAS the primary plan.

Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

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Tatar has similar points per game to Emmerton's best year in GR, .55/game for Tatar & .59/game for Emmerton, as a 19 year old getting his first exposure to North American hockey. That best year for Emmerton was when he was 23. Tatar, who is 22 as of December 1st, is currently sitting at .88 points per game in GR this season. So yeah, nothing to see here when it comes to comparing Tatar to an at best career 12th/13th forward.

Richdg lied, Emmerton never scored 52 points

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I haven't seen much out of Tatar yet, but it's kind of ridiculous the way the fan base keeps waiting for every low draft pick coming through the system to be the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg. That just doesn't happen. There also was no salary cap at the time those 2 were drafted, so it's not like Holland was expecting to hit on guys like that to be cornerstones of the franchise. Guys like Grigorenko and Robert Lang more or less failed, yet that WAS the primary plan. Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

I think any time you draft a player, especially in hockey where there are so many hidden gems, you hoping they could be the corner stone of your franchise. Of course you dont always hit, but best case scenario is that every draft pick will be a star.

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I think any time you draft a player, especially in hockey where there are so many hidden gems, you hoping they could be the corner stone of your franchise. Of course you dont always hit, but best case scenario is that every draft pick will be a star.

While you obviously hope for that to happen, I completely disagree with you in the following respect: If the Red Wings knew Pavel Datsyuk was going to be Pavel Datsyuk, there's no way in heck they let him fall to #171. The two players drafted by Detroit AHEAD of Datsyuk were Carl Steen (#142, played in the Swedish league and never came over to North America) and Adam DeLeeuw (#151, Canadian Junior player who never played in the NHL). It's one thing to avoid overdrafting a guy, but if they had any clue Datsyuk would become half of what he turned out to be, why were they drafting other North Americans and Europeans ahead of him?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=31765

You are correct that hockey seems to have a lot of "hidden gems", but the reasons for that in the 90's were different than they are now. Heading into the Nagano Olympic games (first with professional players), it was still very much assumed that Canada and Russia were the talent powerhouses of the world. Globalization and the internet have diminished the chances that Hakan Andersson wanders into some European rink and sees some prodigy that nobody else has even heard of. Also, the profile of many other leagues not named the NHL or KHL has increased greatly following Olympic play and the 2004-05 lockout. In addition to Yzerman and all the free agents, the Wings were built by the head start we seemed to have in spotting (and smuggling) Russians in the late 80's and early 90's, and Swedes before those players were fully appreciated (Swedes being a solid foundation of the '08 team). I'm not sure there's an "untapped" market that the Wings can exploit now, but we will see.

Plus, you have to keep in mind the type of players that Datsuk and Zetterberg are. They are undeniable talents, but they are also both very unselfish, 2-way players. Neither of them possess a 100 mph slapshot, or blazing speed. They aren't flashy players that blow away the competition like Pavel Bure on CSKA Moscow. It takes a lot of foresight, but even more luck, to find a complete player whose overall intelligence and feel for the game that give them the edge at lower levels will also make them elite players as grown men in the NHL. Guys with one particular elite skill, such as world-class speed like Andreas Athanasiou, don't make it past the 3rd or 4th round, even if they tons of other holes in their game.

Also, I don't think NHL GM's do draft players thinking that every one is going to be a star. Drew Miller draft position (with ANA, not DET) was comparable to Datsyuk's, but I don't think anybody looked at the guy and thought: "here's a potential Hart candidate". I think the hope at that late round was that he became a useful bottom-6 forward, which is basically how he turned out.

Edited by StormJH1
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Yes nothing in the farm system. Sheahan, Nyquist, TarTar all have improved every year. Give them a chance before you completely discount any possible contribution they'll have.

Edited by matt198913

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While you obviously hope for that to happen, I completely disagree with you in the following respect: If the Red Wings knew Pavel Datsyuk was going to be Pavel Datsyuk, there's no way in heck they let him fall to #171. The two players drafted by Detroit AHEAD of Datsyuk were Carl Steen (#142, played in the Swedish league and never came over to North America) and Adam DeLeeuw (#151, Canadian Junior player who never played in the NHL). It's one thing to avoid overdrafting a guy, but if they had any clue Datsyuk would become half of what he turned out to be, why were they drafting other North Americans and Europeans ahead of him?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=31765

You are correct that hockey seems to have a lot of "hidden gems", but the reasons for that in the 90's were different than they are now. Heading into the Nagano Olympic games (first with professional players), it was still very much assumed that Canada and Russia were the talent powerhouses of the world. Globalization and the internet have diminished the chances that Hakan Andersson wanders into some European rink and sees some prodigy that nobody else has even heard of. Also, the profile of many other leagues not named the NHL or KHL has increased greatly following Olympic play and the 2004-05 lockout. In addition to Yzerman and all the free agents, the Wings were built by the head start we seemed to have in spotting (and smuggling) Russians in the late 80's and early 90's, and Swedes before those players were fully appreciated (Swedes being a solid foundation of the '08 team). I'm not sure there's an "untapped" market that the Wings can exploit now, but we will see.

Plus, you have to keep in mind the type of players that Datsuk and Zetterberg are. They are undeniable talents, but they are also both very unselfish, 2-way players. Neither of them possess a 100 mph slapshot, or blazing speed. They aren't flashy players that blow away the competition like Pavel Bure on CSKA Moscow. It takes a lot of foresight, but even more luck, to find a complete player whose overall intelligence and feel for the game that give them the edge at lower levels will also make them elite players as grown men in the NHL. Guys with one particular elite skill, such as world-class speed like Andreas Athanasiou, don't make it past the 3rd or 4th round, even if they tons of other holes in their game.

Also, I don't think NHL GM's do draft players thinking that every one is going to be a star. Drew Miller draft position (with ANA, not DET) was comparable to Datsyuk's, but I don't think anybody looked at the guy and thought: "here's a potential Hart candidate". I think the hope at that late round was that he became a useful bottom-6 forward, which is basically how he turned out.

To put a spin on what you mentioned about "untapped markets", I've always thought that the draft strategy for the Wings in the 90's up to around 2004-05 was very similar to the whole Billy Beane/Moneyball process in baseball. It all came down to identifying market inefficiencies & taking advantage of them for as long as you can.

For Beane, it started with findng players with high OBP passed over by other teams because they were overscouting for RBIs, HRs, etc. For the Wings, it was putting more focus on an untapped European market while other teams spent the majority of their time focusing on the overscouted North American market.

In both cases though, success leads to imitation & eventually the rest of the league catches up to you. The obvious difference on why the Wings system remained more successful than the A's, to me at least, is that the Wings could afford to pay for & attract high level free agents up to the implementation of the salary cap. That also afforded them the luxury of drafting smaller but skilled players they could let mature in the minors/overseas longer & better set them up for success once they made the big club. They had the luxury of taking chances on relative unknowns like a Datsyuk & look like geniuses when the found a diamond in the rough. If you look at the Wings draft picks since Kenny's first draft, you'll notice a trend towards European picks between 1999 & 2005 to the tune of about a 65/35% split between European & North American prospects. Since the 04-05 lockout though, while it hasn't completely flipped it's reversed to around 55/45 NA vs Europe. (Don't quote me on those exact numbers, it's been a while since I've run them)

With the rest of the league scouting Europe now as much as the Wings have historically & with the salary cap in place, we're seeing an shift in drafting strategy by the Wings. In my opinion it's because they recognize the old way of drafting for skill & letting them ripen in the minors won't be as successful as drafting for size/physical maturity & accelerating younger/cheaper players into the line-up in the cap era. So I guess this is my way of saying that we're probably going to see less & less of the "where did the Wings find this guy?" small, skilled, European prospects like a Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hudler, Tatar, etc. going forward.

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Look out HOF, here comes tatar! right........ Just for reference, tatar's best season in GR was 58 points. Emmerton......52. Nothing to see here, please move along......

Emmerton best season in GR was 38 points and he was older than Tatar is now who is on pace to score more than 70 this year.

I think Tatar is a better prospect than Granlund. Sure Granlund scored at a slighlty higher clip in the AHL this year (1.0 - 0.88 PPG) and Granlud is a yr and 2 mths younger but Tatar accomplished that .88 PPG while playing great defensively ( Tatar is +13 Granlund was -4). If there was a Selke Award for best defensive forward in the AHL, both Nyquist and Tatar would be top candidates. While playing against OKC Barons, the Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan line totally shut down young NHL stars Eberle, Hall, Paajarvi-Svensson and Schultz while being dangerous offensively. They totally dominated them. Schultz did manage a PP goal (Eberle assisted) late in the game but the score was already 5-1 and Nyquist and Tatar weren't on the ice. Tatar is also very strong (in amazing shape) for his size and is tough and even has had a few fighting majors in his career so he doesn't shy away from the rough stuff.

Edited by Johnz96

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Richdg lied, Emmerton never scored 52 points

I think he got him mixed up with Abby. In his defense, Abby isn't much better than Emmy. But I'd certainly expect Tots to do better than either. Maybe not with the Wings, considering our glut of forwards, but somewhere.

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Well since I count myself as a big Tatar fan. Like many of you I've followed him closely ever since his first training camp in NA where he knocked the management's socks off. Hell, I even got an autographed puck from the night of his first goal to prove my geekiness. :lol:

So yeah, not that I've unnecessarily flashed my credentials I have to ask-- what the heck is that author thinking about with the title of that article? It's apparent by the end that he eventually comes to grips with the fact that Hudler and Tatar aren't really all that similar.

Tatar is:

-- Extremely hard working each shift (watch a GR game-- he doesn't take shifts or games off)
-- Is happy to go to the dirty areas of the ice (something that Babcock spent seasons getting Hudler to do)

-- An excellent skater (he's not Helm but he's certainly well above average)

-- Defensively responsible and takes pride in being a two way player (a knock Hudler's always had against him, although he's gotten better over time in that respect)

-- Very talented but doesn't possess quite as much raw talent as Hudler does (like it or not Hudler has an elite shot and very good vision despite)

-- An effective bottom six player who's willing to earn his top six ice time on a veteran team

-- Is a consistent player (something Hudler really struggled with)

This is coming from a Hudler fan as well.

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It's gonna be a sad day when Tatar, Lashoff and possibly Mrazek get sent back down to GR for the line-up tampons to come back. <--- Aside from Helm of course.

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It almost seems like Tatar got better playing in Grand Rapids, and is now more NHL ready then before? No, that would mean Holland knows what he is doing.

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It's gonna be a sad day when Tatar, Lashoff and possibly Mrazek get sent back down to GR for the line-up tampons to come back. <--- Aside from Helm of course.

Smith's been fine and we haven't yet really seen what Samuelsson and Gustavsson can offer. I'd be surprised though if this team was ever completely healed so they might be able to keep Tatar, Mrazek and Lashoff up for a long time.

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Tatar has similar points per game to Emmerton's best year in GR, .55/game for Tatar & .59/game for Emmerton, as a 19 year old getting his first exposure to North American hockey. That best year for Emmerton was when he was 23. Tatar, who is 22 as of December 1st, is currently sitting at .88 points per game in GR this season. So yeah, nothing to see here when it comes to comparing Tatar to an at best career 12th/13th forward.

Just wanted to point this out: Ogre is comparing Tatar's rookie year in the AHL with Emmerton's 4th professional year (which was his most productive year in GR). Oh and Tatar was the youngest player in the entire AHL that year.

Tatar's AHL stats this year: 19g/20a/39pts in 44games => 0.89 points per game (pro rated to 71pts in an 80 game AHL season).

Just to further reenforce Ogre here: Tatar is tied for 8th in the entire AHL in points and 8th in goals scored despite having missed games due to his NHL call-up.

I can't believe people still respond to Richdg-- he was exposed as a Wild fan that came to troll here back in the summer.

It's gonna be a sad day when Tatar, Lashoff and possibly Mrazek get sent back down to GR for the line-up tampons to come back. <--- Aside from Helm of course.

We should give Holland the benefit of the doubt here.. so far he's shown a willingness to keep Lashoff up (although it appears Huskins is getting some time off after that big hit) despite having 6 NHL d-men on the roster and is scratching an NHL forward to keep Tatar on the roster (Eaves sat last night for Tatar).

Hockeymom1960 likes this

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I have nothing but good things to say about Tatar. He is really quick and made the third line look great. I hope he doesn't get sent down.

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Just wanted to point this out: Ogre is comparing Tatar's rookie year in the AHL with Emmerton's 4th professional year (which was his most productive year in GR). Oh and Tatar was the youngest player in the entire AHL that year.

Tatar's AHL stats this year: 19g/20a/39pts in 44games => 0.89 points per game (pro rated to 71pts in an 80 game AHL season).

Just to further reenforce Ogre here: Tatar is tied for 8th in the entire AHL in points and 8th in goals scored despite having missed games due to his NHL call-up.

I can't believe people still respond to Richdg-- he was exposed as a Wild fan that came to troll here back in the summer.

We should give Holland the benefit of the doubt here.. so far he's shown a willingness to keep Lashoff up (although it appears Huskins is getting some time off after that big hit) despite having 6 NHL d-men on the roster and is scratching an NHL forward to keep Tatar on the roster (Eaves sat last night for Tatar).

You clearly have me confussed with someone else. I am not nor have ever been a Wild fan, nor has anyone ever accussed me of being one.

The point I was making and stand by, AHL points mean nothing in regards to predicting NHL performence. This is true in every sport, it just isn't the same.

I do have a question for those that believe these guys are so good. if they are, how come none of them, not one beat out guys like Miller, eaves, cleary, Emmerton, Mursak, etc....? They were all in shape-already played 30 games or so. yet not one was able to beat any of those guys out? Not one of the guys I mentioned is signed to a big money long term contract. Most are FA's restricted or free after the year. yet, none lost their jobs. If tatar, nyquist, andersson etc are so good, then shouldn't have at least one of them won a job from that group of very limited players?

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Richdg lied, Emmerton never scored 52 points

Opps, I confused myself...... LOL Iwas looking at Emmerton, Mursaak, and Abdelkader and mixed up the points. Emmerton scored 38 in his best season. Abdelkader scored 52. My bad.

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You clearly have me confussed with someone else. I am not nor have ever been a Wild fan, nor has anyone ever accussed me of being one.

The point I was making and stand by, AHL points mean nothing in regards to predicting NHL performence. This is true in every sport, it just isn't the same.

I do have a question for those that believe these guys are so good. if they are, how come none of them, not one beat out guys like Miller, eaves, cleary, Emmerton, Mursak, etc....? They were all in shape-already played 30 games or so. yet not one was able to beat any of those guys out? Not one of the guys I mentioned is signed to a big money long term contract. Most are FA's restricted or free after the year. yet, none lost their jobs. If tatar, nyquist, andersson etc are so good, then shouldn't have at least one of them won a job from that group of very limited players?

A) Can someone help me out here? Wasn't there a troll here with almost he same name that annoyed us to no end back before the July 2012 signing bonanza?

B) How exactly is your argument any different for these guys than it is for other NHL prospects? You can make the same argument for any prospect who fails to crack the NHL in his draft year. Datsyuk didn't play in the NHL as an 18 year old, so surely he wasn't anything special, right? Or are you just an ass? (Pro tip: the correct answer is the latter)

paulb1320 likes this

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A) Can someone help me out here? Wasn't there a troll here with almost he same name that annoyed us to no end back before the July 2012 signing bonanza?

B) How exactly is your argument any different for these guys than it is for other NHL prospects? You can make the same argument for any prospect who fails to crack the NHL in his draft year. Datsyuk didn't play in the NHL as an 18 year old, so surely he wasn't anything special, right? Or are you just an ass? (Pro tip: the correct answer is the latter)

Debating is fine, by why is there the necessisity to insult other people you don't agree with? He believes our prospects won't pan out, you believe they do, you won't change each others minds

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You clearly have me confussed with someone else. I am not nor have ever been a Wild fan, nor has anyone ever accussed me of being one.

The point I was making and stand by, AHL points mean nothing in regards to predicting NHL performence. This is true in every sport, it just isn't the same.

I do have a question for those that believe these guys are so good. if they are, how come none of them, not one beat out guys like Miller, eaves, cleary, Emmerton, Mursak, etc....? They were all in shape-already played 30 games or so. yet not one was able to beat any of those guys out? Not one of the guys I mentioned is signed to a big money long term contract. Most are FA's restricted or free after the year. yet, none lost their jobs. If tatar, nyquist, andersson etc are so good, then shouldn't have at least one of them won a job from that group of very limited players?

If we'd had a real training camp this year, they very well might have. Their roles aren't exactly the same either. Also, being better doesn't necessarily mean they will be more effective in their rookie seasons. In their first years, Franzen and Flip were really no more effective than Miller/Eaves/Cleary, and look at them now. Why give up guys (who wouldn't bring much of anything in trade), lessen our organizational depth, to bring up kids who aren't likely to make much, if any, difference?

I don't think anyone really expects Nyquist or Tatar to be stars, much less stars in their rookie seasons. But you don't have to be a star to be more than Emmy or Eaves.

And for the record, Hudler was, and is, a very good player. If Tatar turns out so well we should all be pretty happy. That would be a nice result from the 60th pick.

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