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#1 blueadams

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:06 PM

our place in it.

 

So, I think we've now seen enough games to know something about this team.  It's time for a step back and look at the big picture thread.

I'd like to talk about this: WHAT does it take to win a Stanley Cup in today's league?

...1) It takes a great goaltender.  Honestly, I wouldn't say that Jimmy couldn't be one, or that he isn't already.  And this Mrazek kid is awfully exciting in the pipeline.

...2) It takes two ELITE scoring lines.  Honestly, between Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Tatar and Nyquist - if ever arranged properly - I wouldn't say that we're that far away from having that.  Add to that guys in the system like Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, etc.

...3) It takes an ELITE first-pairing of two way defensemen.  Guys who can play 30-35 minutes a game.  PP.  PK.  Everything.  In my own humble opinion, we have ZERO of those (Kronner's play in the defensive end...puke).

...4) 3rd and 4th lines, 2nd and 3rd pairing defensemen - you need guys who are big, strong, fast, aggressive, defensively responsible...and CHEAP.  What do we have in that regard?  Man.  Helm's not a big man, but he's a great bottom six center.  Abby, if he played a little differently, could be what you need somewhere.  Tootoo, not big, but great to have in your bottom six.  Sheahan's a prospect who fits the mold I'm interested to see.  Miller, Eaves, Emmerton, Mursak, etc. - bring some things you like in the bottom six, but no size, and no real talent to off-set it.  Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and Cleary I hate having down there - unaggressive, bad defensively, overpaid.  DEFENSIVELY, Kronwall's not big, but he does things to off-set that.  So does White.  Ericsson's a little overpaid, and not that aggressive, but he's not bad to have.  Smith I'm quite skeptical about, but willing to wait and see on.  Quincey is just plain awful and grossly overpaid.  Kindl is not an NHL-level player.  Lashoff I'm interested to see more of.  No real prospects have emerged in our system on D to this point.

Goalie: Jimmy/Mrazek

Top six: Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Nyquist/Tatar/Jarnkrok/Pulkkinen/Jurcco.

Top pair D: *we need two new players.

Bottom six: Helm, Abby, Sheahan, Tootoo, *we need two players.

2nd/3rd pair D: Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith


...Need to rid ourselves of: Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Eaves, Quincey, Kindl.



BOTTOM LINE:  I hate seeing our team like this.  A borderline playoff team that has little to no chance of winning it all.  Pav's got two years of prime left, max.  Once he's gone, we're in serious trouble.  We need a major roster overhaul ASAP.  We're built horribly inefficiently as a team right now.  Holland's gotta get his head out of his rear before it's too late and correct some of these mistakes he's been making.  

Otherwise, what's really the point of watching (other than pure enjoyment of the game)


Edited by blueadams, 08 February 2013 - 12:07 PM.


#2 MasterPavel

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

Smith was starting to come into his own before he got hurt. A major overhaul is not really possible with just free agency anymore. Unfortunately it will take a trade, and a couple top 10 picks also to get back into contention.

#3 The Axe

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

Im in agreement for the most part. Dont want to give up on Kindl just yet. His pricetag is in check.

I hate that Holland spent 15 mil per on 7-8 sucky guys insteD of 18 mil per on 2 guys. Thats our biggest problem. We have 27 roster players, and only a handful of them are legit. Bertuzzi, Gustavsson, Quincey, Tootoo, Samuelsson, Huskins, Colo, etc. The Return on Investment for these players has been awful so far. Holland did us in when he failed to land Parise and Suter. His checkbook should have been open. But now it looks like we are playing moneypuck. Im not that excited about the Red Wings turning into the Oakland A's of hockey.

#4 MasterPavel

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:28 PM

I am in agreement for the most part Axe, but Holland shouldn't have put all his eggs into 1 off-season. His decisions since 2009 are why we are here.

#5 Euro_Twins

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:29 PM

our place in it.

 

So, I think we've now seen enough games to know something about this team.  It's time for a step back and look at the big picture thread.

I'd like to talk about this: WHAT does it take to win a Stanley Cup in today's league?

...1) It takes a great goaltender.  Honestly, I wouldn't say that Jimmy couldn't be one, or that he isn't already.  And this Mrazek kid is awfully exciting in the pipeline.

...2) It takes two ELITE scoring lines.  Honestly, between Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Tatar and Nyquist - if ever arranged properly - I wouldn't say that we're that far away from having that.  Add to that guys in the system like Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, etc.

...3) It takes an ELITE first-pairing of two way defensemen.  Guys who can play 30-35 minutes a game.  PP.  PK.  Everything.  In my own humble opinion, we have ZERO of those (Kronner's play in the defensive end...puke).

...4) 3rd and 4th lines, 2nd and 3rd pairing defensemen - you need guys who are big, strong, fast, aggressive, defensively responsible...and CHEAP.  What do we have in that regard?  Man.  Helm's not a big man, but he's a great bottom six center.  Abby, if he played a little differently, could be what you need somewhere.  Tootoo, not big, but great to have in your bottom six.  Sheahan's a prospect who fits the mold I'm interested to see.  Miller, Eaves, Emmerton, Mursak, etc. - bring some things you like in the bottom six, but no size, and no real talent to off-set it.  Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and Cleary I hate having down there - unaggressive, bad defensively, overpaid.  DEFENSIVELY, Kronwall's not big, but he does things to off-set that.  So does White.  Ericsson's a little overpaid, and not that aggressive, but he's not bad to have.  Smith I'm quite skeptical about, but willing to wait and see on.  Quincey is just plain awful and grossly overpaid.  Kindl is not an NHL-level player.  Lashoff I'm interested to see more of.  No real prospects have emerged in our system on D to this point.

Goalie: Jimmy/Mrazek

Top six: Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Nyquist/Tatar/Jarnkrok/Pulkkinen/Jurcco.

Top pair D: *we need two new players.

Bottom six: Helm, Abby, Sheahan, Tootoo, *we need two players.

2nd/3rd pair D: Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith


...Need to rid ourselves of: Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Eaves, Quincey, Kindl.



BOTTOM LINE:  I hate seeing our team like this.  A borderline playoff team that has little to no chance of winning it all.  Pav's got two years of prime left, max.  Once he's gone, we're in serious trouble.  We need a major roster overhaul ASAP.  We're built horribly inefficiently as a team right now.  Holland's gotta get his head out of his rear before it's too late and correct some of these mistakes he's been making.  

Otherwise, what's really the point of watching (other than pure enjoyment of the game)

 

sorry I stopped reading when you we need an elite dman who can play 30-35 minutes per game...? Jack johnson from columbus averages 28:30/game, that is the highest in the league, followed by Karlsson at 27:59. Kronwall is 23rd at 24:53/game. What you are saying is there are no "elite" dmen in the nhl cause no one averages 30+ minutes a game?



#6 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:52 PM

The Wings currently have the top defenseman in the QMJHL and the top dman in the OHL (and the only dman that was able to keep up with Dougie Hamilton in points per game this year before he left for the NHL).  They also have one of the top defensive prospects in the SEL.


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#7 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:07 PM

And what's the deal with people crapping on Kronwall's ability to be a top pairing defenseman?

 

http://www.nhl.com/i...iewName=summary


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#8 Nev

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:10 PM

I agree with the OPs general premise.  TL:DR version = good top six, average bottom six which lacks identity (but lets wait till Helm and Sammy get back first), OK goaltending, lack of quality on blue line.

 

We need a major roster overhaul ASAP

 

And thats the hard part - how?  Free Agency is weak, year after year now.  Any half decent player gets a lifetime contract and bucketloads of cash thrown at them - and even that isn't enough as Holland found out with Parise and Suter.  Asking prices for trades are often ridiculous.  Holland has patiently spent years re-stocking our pipeline of prospects, 1 or 2 trades (each costing 2 or 3 prospects) are not going to suddenly propel us into a powerhouse again.


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#9 puckbags

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:24 PM

Im in agreement for the most part. Dont want to give up on Kindl just yet. His pricetag is in check.

I hate that Holland spent 15 mil per on 7-8 sucky guys insteD of 18 mil per on 2 guys. Thats our biggest problem. We have 27 roster players, and only a handful of them are legit. Bertuzzi, Gustavsson, Quincey, Tootoo, Samuelsson, Huskins, Colo, etc. The Return on Investment for these players has been awful so far. Holland did us in when he failed to land Parise and Suter. His checkbook should have been open. But now it looks like we are playing moneypuck. Im not that excited about the Red Wings turning into the Oakland A's of hockey.

 

Where are these guys that you speak of? Suter ? We put a huge offer out for him..he was never coming here..he wanted to play in Minny..end of conversation on that one.  Check out that link with the top defensive scorers on it.  There isn't one guy in the top 30 that is head and shoulders above the rest.  Alot of really good guys there but spending 10 mil a year on any of those guys is crazy. 



Im in agreement for the most part. Dont want to give up on Kindl just yet. His pricetag is in check.

I hate that Holland spent 15 mil per on 7-8 sucky guys insteD of 18 mil per on 2 guys. Thats our biggest problem. We have 27 roster players, and only a handful of them are legit. Bertuzzi, Gustavsson, Quincey, Tootoo, Samuelsson, Huskins, Colo, etc. The Return on Investment for these players has been awful so far. Holland did us in when he failed to land Parise and Suter. His checkbook should have been open. But now it looks like we are playing moneypuck. Im not that excited about the Red Wings turning into the Oakland A's of hockey.

 

What? Obviously the return on investement on Colo, Sammy and Gustavsson is still up for debate because they have been injured.  Tootoo has done everything they would've wanted out of him so far..he's been physical, dropped the gloves and changed the flow of games when we needed it.  Bert is what he is, 3rd line guy..10-15 goals a year..good contract..good team guy.  Quincey would be tolerable if we didnt give up a 1st for him..that one hurts.  Huskins was an emergency guy playing for peanuts and doing everything they asked of him. Get over the Parise and Suter thing..you don't get it..they were never playing here..we offered them huge money and they wanted to play in Minny.


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#10 Playmaker

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:25 PM

If there was an exact formula to winning the Stanley Cup, everyone would do it.  But there isn't.  Basically you have to be good enough to get in the playoffs and get hot at the right time and be lucky enough to stay reasonably healthy.  If they get on a streak and play like they did last night during the playoffs, they could conceivably win the Cup...if they play like they did opening night, they could easy miss out on the playoffs.  It happens every year. 



#11 puckbags

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:38 PM

our place in it.

 

So, I think we've now seen enough games to know something about this team.  It's time for a step back and look at the big picture thread.

I'd like to talk about this: WHAT does it take to win a Stanley Cup in today's league?

...1) It takes a great goaltender.  Honestly, I wouldn't say that Jimmy couldn't be one, or that he isn't already.  And this Mrazek kid is awfully exciting in the pipeline.

...2) It takes two ELITE scoring lines.  Honestly, between Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Tatar and Nyquist - if ever arranged properly - I wouldn't say that we're that far away from having that.  Add to that guys in the system like Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, etc.

...3) It takes an ELITE first-pairing of two way defensemen.  Guys who can play 30-35 minutes a game.  PP.  PK.  Everything.  In my own humble opinion, we have ZERO of those (Kronner's play in the defensive end...puke).

...4) 3rd and 4th lines, 2nd and 3rd pairing defensemen - you need guys who are big, strong, fast, aggressive, defensively responsible...and CHEAP.  What do we have in that regard?  Man.  Helm's not a big man, but he's a great bottom six center.  Abby, if he played a little differently, could be what you need somewhere.  Tootoo, not big, but great to have in your bottom six.  Sheahan's a prospect who fits the mold I'm interested to see.  Miller, Eaves, Emmerton, Mursak, etc. - bring some things you like in the bottom six, but no size, and no real talent to off-set it.  Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and Cleary I hate having down there - unaggressive, bad defensively, overpaid.  DEFENSIVELY, Kronwall's not big, but he does things to off-set that.  So does White.  Ericsson's a little overpaid, and not that aggressive, but he's not bad to have.  Smith I'm quite skeptical about, but willing to wait and see on.  Quincey is just plain awful and grossly overpaid.  Kindl is not an NHL-level player.  Lashoff I'm interested to see more of.  No real prospects have emerged in our system on D to this point.

Goalie: Jimmy/Mrazek

Top six: Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Nyquist/Tatar/Jarnkrok/Pulkkinen/Jurcco.

Top pair D: *we need two new players.

Bottom six: Helm, Abby, Sheahan, Tootoo, *we need two players.

2nd/3rd pair D: Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith


...Need to rid ourselves of: Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Eaves, Quincey, Kindl.



BOTTOM LINE:  I hate seeing our team like this.  A borderline playoff team that has little to no chance of winning it all.  Pav's got two years of prime left, max.  Once he's gone, we're in serious trouble.  We need a major roster overhaul ASAP.  We're built horribly inefficiently as a team right now.  Holland's gotta get his head out of his rear before it's too late and correct some of these mistakes he's been making.  

Otherwise, what's really the point of watching (other than pure enjoyment of the game)

 

What do you think the going rate for these guys is? Have a look..come back and tell me.. Sammy is a 15-20 goal guy when healthy for 3 per..Bert is a 10-15 goal guy for 2 per..Hate to break it to you but that is the going rate for guys like that. 


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#12 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:52 PM

 

our place in it.
 
So, I think we've now seen enough games to know something about this team.  It's time for a step back and look at the big picture thread.

I'd like to talk about this: WHAT does it take to win a Stanley Cup in today's league?

...1) It takes a great goaltender.  Honestly, I wouldn't say that Jimmy couldn't be one, or that he isn't already.  And this Mrazek kid is awfully exciting in the pipeline.

...2) It takes two ELITE scoring lines.  Honestly, between Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Tatar and Nyquist - if ever arranged properly - I wouldn't say that we're that far away from having that.  Add to that guys in the system like Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, etc.

...3) It takes an ELITE first-pairing of two way defensemen.  Guys who can play 30-35 minutes a game.  PP.  PK.  Everything.  In my own humble opinion, we have ZERO of those (Kronner's play in the defensive end...puke).

...4) 3rd and 4th lines, 2nd and 3rd pairing defensemen - you need guys who are big, strong, fast, aggressive, defensively responsible...and CHEAP.  What do we have in that regard?  Man.  Helm's not a big man, but he's a great bottom six center.  Abby, if he played a little differently, could be what you need somewhere.  Tootoo, not big, but great to have in your bottom six.  Sheahan's a prospect who fits the mold I'm interested to see.  Miller, Eaves, Emmerton, Mursak, etc. - bring some things you like in the bottom six, but no size, and no real talent to off-set it.  Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and Cleary I hate having down there - unaggressive, bad defensively, overpaid.  DEFENSIVELY, Kronwall's not big, but he does things to off-set that.  So does White.  Ericsson's a little overpaid, and not that aggressive, but he's not bad to have.  Smith I'm quite skeptical about, but willing to wait and see on.  Quincey is just plain awful and grossly overpaid.  Kindl is not an NHL-level player.  Lashoff I'm interested to see more of.  No real prospects have emerged in our system on D to this point.

Goalie: Jimmy/Mrazek

Top six: Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Brunner, Nyquist/Tatar/Jarnkrok/Pulkkinen/Jurcco.

Top pair D: *we need two new players.

Bottom six: Helm, Abby, Sheahan, Tootoo, *we need two players.

2nd/3rd pair D: Kronwall, White, Ericsson, Smith


...Need to rid ourselves of: Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Eaves, Quincey, Kindl.



BOTTOM LINE:  I hate seeing our team like this.  A borderline playoff team that has little to no chance of winning it all.  Pav's got two years of prime left, max.  Once he's gone, we're in serious trouble.  We need a major roster overhaul ASAP.  We're built horribly inefficiently as a team right now.  Holland's gotta get his head out of his rear before it's too late and correct some of these mistakes he's been making.  

Otherwise, what's really the point of watching (other than pure enjoyment of the game)


Agree on most points of this well constructed post, but have some rebuttle nonetheless.

#1 - Jimmy and Petr can be a nasty tandem if our D was improved.

#2 - If Iginla, Perry or Getzlaf can somehow be signed in the offseason, then we're gtg. If not, then we'll have to wait 1 more season for some guys contracts to expire and then you have 3 scoring lines with Tatar-Jarnkrok-Jurco as the 3rd.

#3 - Wait until you see Oullet and Sproul to compliment Kronwall, Smith and Ericsson. I don't expect to see White and Kindl past their current contract and another Quincey re-signing would result in public fires in Detroit. Wait to see the development of McKee as well. He's a big nasty dude.

#4 - Sign a big forward in the UFA pool, get rid of the baggage, bring up Sheahan and Andersson to flank Helm, and hang on to Tootoo and rotate forwards and give guys games off here and there.

 

And what's the deal with people crapping on Kronwall's ability to be a top pairing defenseman?
 
http://www.nhl.com/i...iewName=summary



I started the thread that Kronwall is a #1 Dman, but in other people's defence, his -3 and 20 mins in lazy butthole penalties is not making my case very strong. He has 8 points, all assists in 10 games, but he's trying too hard to be Lids and not doing it very well. He's gripping his stick too hard and making a lot of mistakes. I still think it's there for him, but he needs a better supporting cast which will be a healthy Smith, Ericsson, and Sproul and Oullet when they come up through the pipeline. Until then it may be a tough ride unless nice signings are made.

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#13 GMRwings1983

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:29 PM

As I've said before several times, I'm confused as to what our current identity is and what it will be in the future.

 

For a long time, this team has been built on puck possession and skill.  It started from having great defensemen who could make terrific breakout passes, and top two forward lines with tremendous skill.  I don't think we're that good anymore, especially on the blueline to play this style effectively.

 

At the same time, there's another way to succeed.  Hot goaltending mixed with solid defense, and a tight checking game that wears teams down.  Needless to say, we don't have that either.  

 

I think this team will be average all season because we're not good enough go glide past teams anymore, and don't work hard enough to outwork anyone either.  

 

I have no clue what the future pool of prospects will amount to, in regards to what kind of hockey the Wings will play in the future.  Do we have enough skill to be a great puck possession team down the line?  Are we tough enough and solid enough defensively to win games that way in the future?   


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#14 Jesusberg

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:49 PM

I'm pretty confused myself about where exactly the team is going to be in a number of years, but I do have good vibes about quite a few prospects. Datsyuk leaving is going to create a big hole, but I think in three years time we're going to see guys like Jarnkrok, Nyquist and Tatar stepping up. I'm actually pretty excited about the guys who may jump into our bottom six, as well. If Datsyuk leaves, I think we'll end up looking something like:

Nyquist-Zetterberg-Brunner
Franzen-Filppula-Jarnkrok/FA?
Tatar-Helm-Ferraro
Abdelkader-Sheahan-Tootoo
Andersson, Aubry

The defense is definitely a little more difficult to peg down, but I see something along the lines of...

Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-White/FA?
Almqvist-Lashoff
FA

Without signing some big name free agent, the defense is still pretty scary to look at. I think they'll qualify Kindl this off-season, because it's not really their style to let RFA's go. I think in about maybe three years, we'll see guys like Ouellet, Sproul and Backman, but for the next few years the D is going to look a little rough unless they scoop someone off the market.



#15 Barrie

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:04 PM

Smith was starting to come into his own before he got hurt. A major overhaul is not really possible with just free agency anymore. Unfortunately it will take a trade, and a couple top 10 picks also to get back into contention.

 

Correct, I'm repeating myself, again, but building through the draft is the way to go. And how do you build through the draft? By bottoming out. I'm not saying the Wings should bottom out now, but we should just play the season out and see what we have with our young players.

 

Building with trades and UFA's will get you no where. The market is way overpriced, and will give you no more hope than, "just make the playoffs, anything will happen".


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#16 F.Michael

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

The Wings currently have the top defenseman in the QMJHL and the top dman in the OHL (and the only dman that was able to keep up with Dougie Hamilton in points per game this year before he left for the NHL).  They also have one of the top defensive prospects in the SEL.

Who are these guys?

 

I'd like to look them up.



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#17 Jesusberg

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

Who are these guys?

 

I'd like to look them up.

 

Not that I was the one asked, but they're Xavier Ouellet and Ryan Sproul. I'm a HUGE fan of Sproul.



#18 F.Michael

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:06 PM

Not that I was the one asked, but they're Xavier Ouellet and Ryan Sproul. I'm a HUGE fan of Sproul.

Thanks!



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#19 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:28 PM

Thanks!

And the one in the SEL would be Backman I believe.  His latest prospect watch I saw said "shades of Edler" seen from him.


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#20 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:38 AM

Not that I was the one asked, but they're Xavier Ouellet and Ryan Sproul. I'm a HUGE fan of Sproul.

 

^This.

 

Ouellet and Sproul are both legit blueliners who've played like lottery picks over the last two seasons.  I'm really excited for the team in GR next year.



And the one in the SEL would be Backman I believe.  His latest prospect watch I saw said "shades of Edler" seen from him.

 

^another correct answer :)  Backman's built like a horse, too, so once he fills out he'll be that much more valuable.


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