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Nyquist called up, Tatar sent down


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#101 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:53 PM

Aww, I'm gonna miss that line of cleary-datsyuk-abby...
 
:hysterical:


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#102 brett

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:29 PM

im beginning to dislike babs. dont know what he has against tatar, he plays s fast gritty game with good skill and scoring. yet he only plays him 8 minutes a game and now hes sent down. if im tatar and im not on the roster next year im out of here. hopefully its just to test nyquist



#103 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:42 PM

its just a numbers game here, when all the fwds are healthy all 3 will be back in GR to hopefully give the farm team a real chance at

winning the Calder. On the other hand the Nyqvist Andersson and Tatar line dominated in the A and put as a 3rd line in the show im

sure would be more than most other teams could cope with.

 

it is frustrating for Tats and the fans but im looking at this from the front office point of view. next year we will see a younger faster and

more talented roster than we have now, that im sure of.


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#104 sputman

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:42 PM

Well, we know he likes big bodies, and since we're missing a few at forward I'm guessing that's why he's keeping Andersson up. The only other forward to send down other than Tatar is Brunner, and that ain't happening.

 

Tatar was brought up for a long time and played well. Why not give Nyquist the same chance?


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#105 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

Have you watched the past two games? I suggest you do and watch only Tatar and Abby the entire game. Tatar has been too weak on the puck the past two games, and he needs to improve his positioning away from the puck. I don't think Babcock is wrong here in saying that Tatar needs to work on his defensive game before he can be used against other top-6 players like Toews, Kane, Thornton, etc.

Tatar is a good offensive talent that will improve defensively with time. I would have preferred Andersson be sent down and Tatar kept since Helm should return soon. IMO Andersson needs to work on his giveaways and he needs to be more physical. I think he is more talented than Emmerton, but he needs to bring more energy before he overtakes Emmerton on the depth chart.

 

I'll give you Tatar's last two games, but have you seen Abby try and accept a pass from Pav? Can't do it. Even if it does comfortably find it's way on his stick, he doesn't know what to do with it after.

 

And any lack of defensive game in Tatar's game would be compensated with Datsyuk's brilliance.



Drum roll....... WE GOT BEAT IN THE FIRST ROUND BECAUSE,........... WE COULDN'T SCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of those guys are in fact the problem. we don't score enough to win. Period. End of Story.

 

We also had great scoring form our D the last 20 years. BTW here are the teams that scored fewer than 200 goals last year: Flames, Avs, BJ's, Panthers, isles, Kings, and Wild. Kings of course are the exception to every rule.

I agree with you completely here. It's funny though, because when I brought this up at the end of last year, I got the "Cleary has scored nearly 20 goals....Hudler has 20+....Filppula has 20+"

 

Aside from Brunner, who has cooled off considerably, this team has NO goal scorers. Just a bunch of guys who want to pass the puck to each other (see: Filppula, Datsyuk, who has 8 shots in his last 6 games)



Is Nyquist really that much better than Tatar defensively?

No, he isn't.

 

Which pretty much 100% contradicts Babcock's reasoning of not putting Tatar on the top 6.  



#106 MibJab

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:17 PM

No. Your top 2 lines should score 180+ goals. If they only get 120, you are going to be LUCKY to score 200 goals in a season. Less than 3 goals per game. that equals sub .500 record.

 

A high powered offense can survive and succeed with a mediocre defense. A high powered defense can open up space for a mediocre offense. Having a solid mix of neither superior or inferior zone strengths creates the parity we have now in today's NHL. No matter what Red Wings lineup myself, or any professional and non-professional could calculate on paper (only including pieces the team has under contract) could we come up with an offensive powerhouse lineup. So what it seems Ken Holland a co. have done is built, or maintained a balanced, two way team that can, in a matter of 1 or 2 goals, win or lose against any opponent they face. With the way the rules are set, in order to build up points, all you have to do as a team is maintain a balanced game until overtime or shootout and still move up in the conference anyways. The Red Wings have the luxury of changing face as many times as necessary until they build a team that wins more than it loses. Swapping Tatar for Nyquist ( same style player ) represents that free ability to tweak and change the lineup to in a sense "see what they have," while keeping the more permanent fixtures in place. Even though the general unprofessional opinion of the forum is that there are other issues in the lineup that need to be addressed first is nothing more than that; an unprofessional opinion. Rebuilding is not for those seeking instant gratification and neither Tatar (he has played well) or Nyquist provide the season changing instant gratification the fans demand. Good players don't need to be line shuffled constantly to produce. No matter where you put Datsyuk (between Abdelkader and Cleary) still produces (25 points in 25 games) Tatar showed that he can and will play well and produce points on the 3rd line. Now for him to maintain a spot in the lineup he'll have to continue that play wherever he's used (either AHL or back in the NHL.) Now Nyquist gets that chance. That's how the Red Wings systemize (over ripe) young guys. 

 

For any team's top 2 lines to score over 180 goals in a season means that each player has to average 30+ goals. I'm not sure if any cup winning teams have had 6 30+ goal scorers (inform me if there has been), but that's quite a tough load in today's NHL. And the salary demands of those forwards would all be $6+ million dollars. Balance is key.   



#107 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:56 PM

Well I don't mind the bigger bodies because we'll need them when we go to the East.



#108 esteef

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:00 PM

Now defense is the most important thing for our top 2 lines?  I thought scoring came first?  Abby is so good defensively he DOES NOT play on the PK, so I don't know where Babs is pulling this "he's better defensively" crap from.  And do we really have these defensive line matching worries against teams like Columbus?  Seriously?  Chicago I can see but the Blue Jackets?  Come now.

 

Putting Nyquist immediately on one of the top 2 lines, while a good idea,  is a total slap in the face to Tatar who proved he should've been moved up over Cleary and Abby many games ago.  Ian White plays like crap and is benched for 6 six games, Cleary plays like crap for weeks and gets moved up from the 2nd to the 1st line? 

 

Our prospects are going to start going the way of free agents in that Detroit is losing its luster for a potential destination.  The "overripening" strategy is making less sense these days with the scrubs we continue to sign and ice over proven talent.

 

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#109 Marty Barry

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:30 PM

Mind bobbling.  Just mind bobbling.  See you soon Tats.



#110 number9

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:48 PM

Don't know what's so confusing about this. Tatar is our only forward that doesn't have to go through waivers. If we sent anyone else down to make room for Goose, they'd be exposed to a waiver claim from another team. So that's business, Tatar had to be the one to go down. He earned his playoff spot and his roster spot for next year though. Have fun in your last year in the A tomas!



#111 JasonNewEra

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:15 PM

The only logical explanation I can come up with, is that they are showing these guys off as trade bait. Perhaps making room for Helm as well, but Cleary/Abdelkader/Eaves/Miller haven't been pulling they're contract weight. I would bench them or put them on waivers before sending Tatar down.

 

Shocking really, I hope this is the aberration year we have to deal with and things get back to normal. Cause next year, we'll be in the East facing stiffer competition and this team isn't going to cut it.


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#112 Johnz96

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:15 PM

Don't know what's so confusing about this. Tatar is our only forward that doesn't have to go through waivers. If we sent anyone else down to make room for Goose, they'd be exposed to a waiver claim from another team. So that's business, Tatar had to be the one to go down. He earned his playoff spot and his roster spot for next year though. Have fun in your last year in the A tomas!

We have too many 'filler' players anyway, we would be better by subtraction



#113 evilzyme

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:37 PM

The only logical explanation I can come up with, is that they are showing these guys off as trade bait. Perhaps making room for Helm as well, but Cleary/Abdelkader/Eaves/Miller haven't been pulling they're contract weight. I would bench them or put them on waivers before sending Tatar down.

 

Shocking really, I hope this is the aberration year we have to deal with and things get back to normal. Cause next year, we'll be in the East facing stiffer competition and this team isn't going to cut it.

 

I'll try to dissect this. Abby, Eaves, and Miller haven't been pulling their contract weight?

 

Abby (4th line center) 1.8m this season, while filling in on the top 6 while we're injured as hell. Works on the forecheck, tries to disrupt to corners, and is one of the only people that can win a puck battle and get it back to the D on the powerplay. Previous seasons of 19pts/22pts for a 4th line center. Certainly isn't pulling his weight....

 

Eaves (4th line winger) 1.2m this season, coming off of an injury that held him sidelined for a year. Comes back, and fits in good. Works the forecheck, can work as an energetic winger and one of our BEST penalty killers. Previous seasons of 26pts/14pts. Certainly isn't pulling his weight....

 

Miller (4th line winger) 837,500 this season. Outstanding penalty killer, role player, and occasionally pots em. Previous seasons of 19pts/18pts/25pts with an upward trajectory. Certainly isn't pulling his weight

 

So you're telling me you would roll out under 4m within 3 outstanding role players and just let them crawl away to waivers... thank GOD you're not GM of ANY team. 

 

Next point with the East. Stiffer competition? What the HELL? Where have you been? The West has been dominate of the East. We have closer playoff races, the point totals are closer, the skill level is elevated. The West is the rougher conference, and we'll be moving to the East that will cut travel down significantly. So magically, going to an weaker conference and getting less travel is going to equate to stiffer competition? Just doesn't add up.


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#114 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

Without reading through this entire thread (yet). I'm sure everyone on this forum is thrilled. LOL.



#115 number9

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 07:59 PM

We have too many 'filler' players anyway, we would be better by subtraction

Disagreed. This is a business. Losing assets, big or small, for nothing is not smart. I agree we need to dump our filler guys, but doing that through the waiver wire is bad business. Tots will get some heavy ice time in the minors (which is good) and play there until room is made for him through trade. It's the classic dumb hockey move, but smart business move. At the end of the day business trumps hockey. Playing Tatar now and losing other guys through waivers helps us in the short term but hurts us for the next 10 years when we get nothing in return for them.



#116 GMRwings1983

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:08 PM

Disagreed. This is a business. Losing assets, big or small, for nothing is not smart. I agree we need to dump our filler guys, but doing that through the waiver wire is bad business. Tots will get some heavy ice time in the minors (which is good) and play there until room is made for him through trade. It's the classic dumb hockey move, but smart business move. At the end of the day business trumps hockey. Playing Tatar now and losing other guys through waivers helps us in the short term but hurts us for the next 10 years when we get nothing in return for them.

 

What do you think we could get in return now for Miller, Abdelkader or Cleary?  I have a hard time seeing GM's giving up anything for those plugs.

 

I don't think we should waive all those players (because of injuries), but from a talent standpoint, it will hardly be a loss.  Would a guy like Callahan really do worse than Miller has on the 4th line this season?  How many fewer points could he produce? 


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#117 evilzyme

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:11 PM

What do you think we could get in return now for Miller, Abdelkader or Cleary?  I have a hard time seeing GM's giving up anything for those plugs.

 

I don't think we should waive all those players (because of injuries), but from a talent standpoint, it will hardly be a loss.  Would a guy like Callahan really do worse than Miller has on the 4th line this season?  How many fewer points could he produce? 

 

Easily pick(s) for each/together/etc, and that's something you can always use especially in Ken Holland's ways. He strictly believes on developing in-house and through the draft.


Edited by evilzyme, 12 March 2013 - 08:12 PM.

Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#118 number9

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

What do you think we could get in return now for Miller, Abdelkader or Cleary?  I have a hard time seeing GM's giving up anything for those plugs.

 

I don't think we should waive all those players (because of injuries), but from a talent standpoint, it will hardly be a loss.  Would a guy like Callahan really do worse than Miller has on the 4th line this season?  How many fewer points could he produce? 

Legitimate point. But those are all valuable bottom 6 guys. Each on their own are easily worth late round picks. I don't wanna call you a "spoiled wings fan" because I know from your posting history your not, but I do think too many Wings fans don't give enough credit to those guys. Are they expendable? yes. Are they valueless? no. Plenty of playoff contenders looking for reliable/serviceable guys would be interested in them



#119 number9

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:26 PM

Mike Brown was worth a 4th round pick.... to think that we would get nothing for a guy like Abby or Cleary or even Miller is ludicrousness 



#120 GMRwings1983

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:31 PM

Mike Brown was worth a 4th round pick.... to think that we would get nothing for a guy like Abby or Cleary or even Miller is ludicrousness 

 

Mike Brown is a great fighter, though.  Edmonton must have felt they needed some toughness.  So he had some value to them.  Pretty solid hitter too.    

 

I can see some team coughing something up for Cleary based on past playoff performances, but they wouldn't be doing their homework if they did.  Abby is young, which is the only thing I can envision a team seeing in him.  

 

I know I'm no GM, but I wouldn't trade any picks for those players if I'm running another team.  I'd call up my own guys from the minors instead.     


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