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Richdg

Ericsson for Courturier?

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he just turned 21 no sh*t hes not nhl ready goalies dont fully develop until there 23-25 ... he was the top goalie at the world juniors and hes already making an impact in the ahl at a very young age ... griffins were going nowhere until he showed up and last i checked they were 1st place in there division

as far as im concerned hes a franchise goalie and the future #1 ... ill gladly say i was a stupid idiot and wrong if he turns out to be garbage but i fully doubt ill be wrong on him ... hes untouchable

jake patterson is the trade bait to use when the time comes for a good piece

howard is a good goalie and im glad we have him , hes put in solid work for us but i dont think hes an elite goalie heck i even watched tsn reports a while back and they rated goalies in the west and east and i dont even think howard cracked the top 5 goalies in the west

We'lll see if howard can really steal a series on his own this post season ... he never did it with lidstrom here so were really gonna need him now

When Howard was 21 he also turned around the fortunes of the Griffins with #'s extremely similar to Mrazeks.

Mrazek is a great prospect but he's not in the stratosphere of a franchise goalie, Unless you mean an AHL franchise goalie, which might be true, but lets see how he performs in the playoffs first.

He might become an NHL starter, there is also a slight chance he could become the Franchise goalie you keep calling him, but there is probably a bigger chance that he never sticks in the NHL at all then there is that he will become one of the NHL's elite netminders. That's not a knock on him either, its just the reality of goaltending at the NHL level.

Putting the expectation of him being a Franchise goalie as a 21 year old who's accomplished nothing as a professional is just setting the guy up to fail. Lets wait and see what we have before we start throwing those kind of projections around.

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he just turned 21 no sh*t hes not nhl ready goalies dont fully develop until there 23-25 ... he was the top goalie at the world juniors and hes already making an impact in the ahl at a very young age ... griffins were going nowhere until he showed up and last i checked they were 1st place in there division

as far as im concerned hes a franchise goalie and the future #1 ... ill gladly say i was a stupid idiot and wrong if he turns out to be garbage but i fully doubt ill be wrong on him ... hes untouchable

jake patterson is the trade bait to use when the time comes for a good piece

howard is a good goalie and im glad we have him , hes put in solid work for us but i dont think hes an elite goalie heck i even watched tsn reports a while back and they rated goalies in the west and east and i dont even think howard cracked the top 5 goalies in the west

We'lll see if howard can really steal a series on his own this post season ... he never did it with lidstrom here so were really gonna need him now

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/feature/?ID=10466

here just found this

howard is ranked higher than price rinne ward quick ... can you honestly say youd rather have howard than all those guys??

there are only 3 goalies in the league that have faced as many shots as howie or more, that have put up better numbers than him. lundqvist, dubnyk, and niemi have better sv%. Rinne, lundqvist, and niemi have better gaa.

Miller, Pavelec, Bryzgalov, nabakov and varlamov all have faced more shots then any of them and have put up lower numbers. So technically, there are only 3-4 goalies who currently have proved they are better then jimmy while receiving the same kind of attention in net. Although i don't if i would include Rinne as much becasue he has played 4 more games then any of those goalies, so he doesn't face the same amount of shots per game

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Yes.

Look at their career numbers.

Howard .917 with 2.42 gaa his best season was .924 and 2.26 GAA 2.25 million

Price .916 with 2.53 gaa his best season was .923 and 2.35 GAA 6.5 million

Rinne .920 with 2.35 gaa his best season was .930 and 2.12 GAA 7 million

Ward .910 with 2.74 GAA his best season was .923 and 2.56 GAA 6.3 million

Quick .915 with 2.32 GAA his best season was .929 and 1.95 GAA 5.4 million

I don't see the major difference, but you know where I do see? Look at salaries. Howard at 4-5 million is better.

And Rinne's and Quick's best season were behind defensively oriented clubs, not a type of team Howard is playing behind now.

I really think Howard gets underrated here, we finally get a very good goalie, and yet he's not good enough. If we were paying him Quick money, and then puts up .895 SV% like Quick is this year do you think we'd be happy?

ward won a cup mvp

quick won a cup mvp

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

your thinking with your heart not your head

When Howard was 21 he also turned around the fortunes of the Griffins with #'s extremely similar to Mrazeks.

Mrazek is a great prospect but he's not in the stratosphere of a franchise goalie, Unless you mean an AHL franchise goalie, which might be true, but lets see how he performs in the playoffs first.

He might become an NHL starter, there is also a slight chance he could become the Franchise goalie you keep calling him, but there is probably a bigger chance that he never sticks in the NHL at all then there is that he will become one of the NHL's elite netminders. That's not a knock on him either, its just the reality of goaltending at the NHL level.

Putting the expectation of him being a Franchise goalie as a 21 year old who's accomplished nothing as a professional is just setting the guy up to fail. Lets wait and see what we have before we start throwing those kind of projections around.

your already expecting him to fail with your disbelief in he can be an nhl franchise goalie .... and yes i think he can be i surely dont think he can be an ahl franchise goalie hes got way more potential then just that

there are only 3 goalies in the league that have faced as many shots as howie or more, that have put up better numbers than him. lundqvist, dubnyk, and niemi have better sv%. Rinne, lundqvist, and niemi have better gaa.

Miller, Pavelec, Bryzgalov, nabakov and varlamov all have faced more shots then any of them and have put up lower numbers. So technically, there are only 3-4 goalies who currently have proved they are better then jimmy while receiving the same kind of attention in net. Although i don't if i would include Rinne as much becasue he has played 4 more games then any of those goalies, so he doesn't face the same amount of shots per game

dont forget this is also a shortened season with no training camp and pre season hockey so i wouldnt put too much stock into this years stats , your telling me king henrik is over although hes been far from his usual self?

columbus a playoff team? a shortened season = alot of surprises

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ward won a cup mvp

quick won a cup mvp

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

your thinking with your heart not your head

I find that ironic when I posted numbers. A goalie can only do so much, did you hold it against Hasek for 8 years before he won?

Fact is goalies in this league don't stay elite for long, Miller was amazing for a couple years, Luongo was briliant for a long time, Thomas put up ridiculous numbers, every Phoenix goalie puts up numbers. etc. Elite goalies are a rare commodity, and I'd venture to say their may not be an "elite" goalie ala Hasek, Roy, Brodeur playing right now.

It really depends on your definition, if all it takes is a good cup run to be elite then Fleury should be in their, along with Neimi, Thomas, Giguere. But if a goalie can't be elite without winning in the playoffs then you are leaving out a ton of great goalies.

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ward won a cup mvp

quick won a cup mvp

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

your thinking with your heart not your head

your already expecting him to fail with your disbelief in he can be an nhl franchise goalie .... and yes i think he can be i surely dont think he can be an ahl franchise goalie hes got way more potential then just that

dont forget this is also a shortened season with no training camp and pre season hockey so i wouldnt put too much stock into this years stats , your telling me king henrik is over although hes been far from his usual self?

columbus a playoff team? a shortened season = alot of surprises

Excuse my confusion, but Carey Price who has played a total of 5 NHL seasons coming into this season, and has played much worse in the playoffs than howie, is still young and will be a future star, but jimmy howard who has played 3 seasons is a failure, because he hasn't won a cup?

ya, I'm using my head and not my heart here, and my head is telling me you're crazy...

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ward won a cup mvp

quick won a cup mvp

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

your thinking with your heart not your head

your already expecting him to fail with your disbelief in he can be an nhl franchise goalie .... and yes i think he can be i surely dont think he can be an ahl franchise goalie hes got way more potential then just that

dont forget this is also a shortened season with no training camp and pre season hockey so i wouldnt put too much stock into this years stats , your telling me king henrik is over although hes been far from his usual self?

columbus a playoff team? a shortened season = alot of surprises

The irony from your posts is astounding, you claim Carman is thinking with his heart not his head when he provides you evidence, all while you claim up and down that a guy with only 2 games of NHL experience is a franchise goalie.

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Pretty much everyone is tradeable. A center with size, the ability to step into the NHL at 19 and with such a high ceiling is well worth a top end G prospect. Ultimately Howard is the goalie for the next 5 years at least which makes Mrazek expendable. Is Courturier worth it? I'm not educated enough to say. But Mrazek is definitely tradeable.

Just say NO

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Just say NO

for a 20 year old 6'3 center? We already have a goalie, what we are missing is size.

Mrazek is very promising, but it's a win/win for both teams. We have Howard hopefully for the forseeable future, but we don't have a big top 6 center prospect.

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I find that ironic when I posted numbers. A goalie can only do so much, did you hold it against Hasek for 8 years before he won?

Fact is goalies in this league don't stay elite for long, Miller was amazing for a couple years, Luongo was briliant for a long time, Thomas put up ridiculous numbers, every Phoenix goalie puts up numbers. etc. Elite goalies are a rare commodity, and I'd venture to say their may not be an "elite" goalie ala Hasek, Roy, Brodeur playing right now.

It really depends on your definition, if all it takes is a good cup run to be elite then Fleury should be in their, along with Neimi, Thomas, Giguere. But if a goalie can't be elite without winning in the playoffs then you are leaving out a ton of great goalies.

LOL are you f*cken serious right now???????? how many vezina's and mvps did hasek win???? howard?? PLEASE dont even compare hasek to howard PLEASE

and obviously winning the cup alone doesnt make you elite but winning series on your own and taking your team to the top by yourself and winning the mvp like ward and quick does

wait till howard wins just one series by himself and then you call him elite .... dont even bring up hasek again thats just an insult

Excuse my confusion, but Carey Price who has played a total of 5 NHL seasons coming into this season, and has played much worse in the playoffs than howie, is still young and will be a future star, but jimmy howard who has played 3 seasons is a failure, because he hasn't won a cup?

ya, I'm using my head and not my heart here, and my head is telling me you're crazy...

your the crazy one ... when did i ever say howard is a failure?????? i said hes played good for us and hes a good goalie i just wouldnt say hes ELITE ... and your right about price he hasnt proven himself yet but he does have all the tools and is still young , you go ask 30 gms if theyd rather want price or howard i bet you an overwhelming amount of teams would rather have price

The irony from your posts is astounding, you claim Carman is thinking with his heart not his head when he provides you evidence, all while you claim up and down that a guy with only 2 games of NHL experience is a franchise goalie.

so people were stupid when they said luongo was a franchise goalie on draft day? marc andre fleury(even though hes been bad has been the number 1 and won a cup) there are plenty of goalies who never played an nhl game yet and were being touted as franchise goalies

Just because mrazek played 2 nhl games doesnt mean he doesnt have what it takes to be a franchise guy

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LOL are you f*cken serious right now???????? how many vezina's and mvps did hasek win???? howard?? PLEASE dont even compare hasek to howard PLEASE

and obviously winning the cup alone doesnt make you elite but winning series on your own and taking your team to the top by yourself and winning the mvp like ward and quick does

wait till howard wins just one series by himself and then you call him elite .... dont even bring up hasek again thats just an insult

your the crazy one ... when did i ever say howard is a failure?????? i said hes played good for us and hes a good goalie i just wouldnt say hes ELITE ... and your right about price he hasnt proven himself yet but he does have all the tools and is still young , you go ask 30 gms if theyd rather want price or howard i bet you an overwhelming amount of teams would rather have price

you bank on Mrazek being the saviour of the wings because he has played good in one year at the AHL level, but Jimmy who has proved to be able to put up numbers every year along side the best of the best is just a good/average goalie... but carey price is a much better goalie because he is 3 years younger?

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for a 20 year old 6'3 center? We already have a goalie, what we are missing is size.

Mrazek is very promising, but it's a win/win for both teams. We have Howard hopefully for the forseeable future, but we don't have a big top 6 center prospect.

sheahan has the potential to one day play on the top 6 ... not saying hes better but it wouldnt cost us your ridiculous trade proposal who lets not all forget with this mrazek talk includes ouellet whos a potential top defensemen whos a good all around defensemen

you bank on Mrazek being the saviour of the wings because he has played good in one year at the AHL level, but Jimmy who has proved to be able to put up numbers every year along side the best of the best is just a good/average goalie... but carey price is a much better goalie because he is 3 years younger?

once again i said howard is a good goalie and hes been good for us .... dont put average when i didnt say average , hes a good goalie just not on the upper echelon why would you wanna get rid of someone who has the potential to be a great goalie makes no sense

why isnt one suggesting throwing in jake patterson instead of mrazek? whats with you guys ... calgary wanted malcolm subban in return for iginla but boston refused ... you know why ? cause you dont give up on those types of goalies

prices has the tools to be elite thats all im saying and if you ask alot of gms most would take price over howard

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sheahan has the potential to one day play on the top 6 ... not saying hes better but it wouldnt cost us your ridiculous trade proposal who lets not all forget with this mrazek talk includes ouellet whos a potential top defensemen whos a good all around defensemen

And Courturier is a 20 year old with potential to be a top line center.

The difference is we have Sproul, Backman, Jensen, Deykeyser, Smith, Lashoff, Kindl etc.

What's our big center depth look like? Sheahan, Andersson ???? And they don't project to be top 6 players, Sheahan has an outside shot though.

I don't know, I think you guys are undervaluing Courturier, if he was in our system you would most likely be signing a different tune. IMO

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And Courturier is a 20 year old with potential to be a top line center.

The difference is we have Sproul, Backman, Jensen, Deykeyser, Smith, Lashoff, Kindl etc.

What's our big center depth look like? Sheahan, Andersson ???? And they don't project to be top 6 players, Sheahan has an outside shot though.

I don't know, I think you guys are undervaluing Courturier, if he was in our system you would most likely be signing a different tune. IMO

im not undervaluing couturier i know hes a good player and would fit in with alot of teams but i wouldnt in anyway give up what your suggesting to aquire him

id rather trade patterson and nyquist at this point .... the flyers will only trade him for an established nhler anyways so all this talk is for nothing

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When Howard was 21 he also turned around the fortunes of the Griffins with #'s extremely similar to Mrazeks.

Mrazek is a great prospect but he's not in the stratosphere of a franchise goalie, Unless you mean an AHL franchise goalie, which might be true, but lets see how he performs in the playoffs first.

He might become an NHL starter, there is also a slight chance he could become the Franchise goalie you keep calling him, but there is probably a bigger chance that he never sticks in the NHL at all then there is that he will become one of the NHL's elite netminders. That's not a knock on him either, its just the reality of goaltending at the NHL level.

Putting the expectation of him being a Franchise goalie as a 21 year old who's accomplished nothing as a professional is just setting the guy up to fail. Lets wait and see what we have before we start throwing those kind of projections around.

And where is Jimmy right now?

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And where is Jimmy right now?

well after his dreams of becoming an elite nhl goalie got squashed by the LGW gm's he started doing drugs and drinking, before too long he was broke, a washed up has been, never to play an nhl game again, only to remember his past failures of not stealing an entire stanley cup run in his rookie year...

oh and of course he had to watch the future Martin Brodeur, or as we know him by his real name Petr Mrazek steal every game for the wings, and go on to win, the selke, lady byng, norris, calser, art ross, vezina, conn smythe and the LGW you have my approval trophies

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And where is Jimmy right now?

He's of of the top ten goalies in the league, that's where.

That said, I agree that Mrazek and Ouellet would be an overpayment. Couturier's future potential is by no means assured either, and his level of play this season greatly leaves something to be desired.

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The Flyers freakin' love Couturier. They may trade him for the right deal, and for Cap-related issues, but not unless the return is better than Jonathan Ericsson.


This isn't a thread about Jimmy Howard, but I really don't believe in "elite" goaltenders anymore. There are guys like Kiprusoff, Giguere, and Cam Ward who have won Cups and were considered "elite-level" netminders at points in their career....and then look completely ordinary at other times. Team defense and system certainly has a lot to do with that.

I think there's minimum level of competency and consistency you need to prove as a goaltender that places you in the first or second "tier" of goaltenders, and any one of those guys could be good enough to do the job in the right circumstance. Problem is, I think there's literally 15 of those guys. Lundquist, Rinne, Luongo, Niemi, Price, Ryan Miller....all those guys are capable of playing at at top level, and I think Jimmy Howard is somewhere in that group. At the same time, I could easily see a guy like Rinne or Price not being nearly has well regarded in 3 years, if their performances tail off a bit.

I feel like in the "dead puck" era, the combination of a defensively-oriented game and no salary cap (which allowed teams like Detroit, Colorado, etc. to restock) helped breed these "super goalies" like Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Hasek, etc. All of them were greats, but I'm not sure you could have dropped them into this era and expected 10-15 year careers of sustained superstardom. With those adjusted expectations in mind, we're damn lucky to have Jimmy Howard, and luckier still that he doesn't cost what Luongo costs (yet, anyway).

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LOL are you f*cken serious right now???????? how many vezina's and mvps did hasek win???? howard?? PLEASE dont even compare hasek to howard PLEASE

and obviously winning the cup alone doesnt make you elite but winning series on your own and taking your team to the top by yourself and winning the mvp like ward and quick does

wait till howard wins just one series by himself and then you call him elite .... dont even bring up hasek again thats just an insult

your the crazy one ... when did i ever say howard is a failure?????? i said hes played good for us and hes a good goalie i just wouldnt say hes ELITE ... and your right about price he hasnt proven himself yet but he does have all the tools and is still young , you go ask 30 gms if theyd rather want price or howard i bet you an overwhelming amount of teams would rather have price

so people were stupid when they said luongo was a franchise goalie on draft day? marc andre fleury(even though hes been bad has been the number 1 and won a cup) there are plenty of goalies who never played an nhl game yet and were being touted as franchise goalies

Just because mrazek played 2 nhl games doesnt mean he doesnt have what it takes to be a franchise guy

Those guys were looked at as "potential" Franchise goalies because they were 1st and 4th overall picks. Also both their status' as franchise goalies are debatable, especially in Fluery's case.

Its awfully hard to make a case that the expectations for a guy drafted in the 5th round should be as high as they are for a guy drafted in the first spot in the entire draft.

Its not impossible for Mrazek to overcome that and I hope he does, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

Again, I don't think we should trade him, I just don't think he's going to be taking the #1 job from Howard unless he makes significant improvement over the next few years, or Howard takes some significant steps backwards.

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Those guys were looked at as "potential" Franchise goalies because they were 1st and 4th overall picks. Also both their status' as franchise goalies are debatable, especially in Fluery's case.

Its awfully hard to make a case that the expectations for a guy drafted in the 5th round should be as high as they are for a guy drafted in the first spot in the entire draft.

Its not impossible for Mrazek to overcome that and I hope he does, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

Again, I don't think we should trade him, I just don't think he's going to be taking the #1 job from Howard unless he makes significant improvement over the next few years, or Howard takes some significant steps backwards.

Those guys were looked at as "potential" Franchise goalies because they were 1st and 4th overall picks. Also both their status' as franchise goalies are debatable, especially in Fluery's case.

Its awfully hard to make a case that the expectations for a guy drafted in the 5th round should be as high as they are for a guy drafted in the first spot in the entire draft.

Its not impossible for Mrazek to overcome that and I hope he does, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

Again, I don't think we should trade him, I just don't think he's going to be taking the #1 job from Howard unless he makes significant improvement over the next few years, or Howard takes some significant steps backwards.

lundqvist Selected by New York Rangers round 7 #205 overall 2000 NHL Entry Draft

hasek Selected by Chicago Blackhawks round 10 #199 overall 1983 NHL Entry Draft

rinne Selected by Nashville Predators round 8 #258 overall 2004 NHL Entry Draft

kiprusoff Selected by San Jose Sharks round 5 #116 overall 1995 NHL Entry Draft

yes its possible we could have drafted a franchise goalie in the 5th round ... it happens

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lundqvist Selected by New York Rangers round 7 #205 overall 2000 NHL Entry Draft

hasek Selected by Chicago Blackhawks round 10 #199 overall 1983 NHL Entry Draft

rinne Selected by Nashville Predators round 8 #258 overall 2004 NHL Entry Draft

kiprusoff Selected by San Jose Sharks round 5 #116 overall 1995 NHL Entry Draft

yes its possible we could have drafted a franchise goalie in the 5th round ... it happens

I know its possible, I even said so in the post you quoted.. I said the odd's aren't in his favor. Would you like me to quote you all the goalies drafted after the 1st round who didn't make it to the NHL? It will be a far longer list than the one you just posted.

Also, none of those goalies were thought of as Franchise goalies when they were drafted they developed into one. Thats all I'm saying, lets see if Mrazek can develop like some of them did before we start throwing around terms like elite and franchise goalie. He's got a lot of work to do to be in the company of those guys or even Howard.

Edited by FlashyG

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Sheahan who i like is not going to be a top 6 forward. he is Abdelkader version 2.0. Which is fine btw. as for mraz..... i was driving home tonight listening to the Griffins pregame. Where Kazor was talking about Mraz having lost his last 5 games and really struggling. McCollom was starting agian tonight and playing well. Point of this is, before we talk about any player currently in the minors being a future NHL star, maybe they should produce for a few years in the minors first? History is filled with guys with talent that don't make it. It takes far more than that to even become a regular NHL player. To say nothing about becomign a star.

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I know its possible, I even said so in the post you quoted.. I said the odd's aren't in his favor. Would you like me to quote you all the goalies drafted after the 1st round who didn't make it to the NHL? It will be a far longer list than the one you just posted.

Also, none of those goalies were thought of as Franchise goalies when they were drafted they developed into one. Thats all I'm saying, lets see if Mrazek can develop like some of them did before we start throwing around terms like elite and franchise goalie. He's got a lot of work to do to be in the company of those guys or even Howard.

and mrazek is developing into one as we speak ;) ... lets just agree to disagree if in 3 years hes a bum call me out ill gladly say i was a f*cken idiot but i dont see that happening ... gonna end it here cause this can go on forever lol

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Sheahan who i like is not going to be a top 6 forward. he is Abdelkader version 2.0. Which is fine btw. as for mraz..... i was driving home tonight listening to the Griffins pregame. Where Kazor was talking about Mraz having lost his last 5 games and really struggling. McCollom was starting agian tonight and playing well. Point of this is, before we talk about any player currently in the minors being a future NHL star, maybe they should produce for a few years in the minors first? History is filled with guys with talent that don't make it. It takes far more than that to even become a regular NHL player. To say nothing about becomign a star.

Sheahan is in his first season. It's more than a bit early to be passing final judgments like that.

Yes, it's certainly true that most prospects don't make the NHL. However, that's no good reason to trade the ones who have potential.

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Sheahan is in his first season. It's more than a bit early to be passing final judgments like that.

Yes, it's certainly true that most prospects don't make the NHL. However, that's no good reason to trade the ones who have potential.

Yes there is. To get proven players. You wouldn't include Mraz in a move for Ryan? Or Malkin? or hell you get the point. To have 10 Dmen and 4 G's and holes at forward is not a team that is going to win SC's. add to that you never know which prospect is going to turn out. Most don't.

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