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Ericsson for Courturier?


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#21 FlashyG

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:29 PM

ya VERY LOW :sigh:  He dominated the world juniors and gave some stellar performances .... hes playing great in the ahl in his first season , played great in his first nhl game and he just turned 21 .... hes way ahead of what jimmy howard was when he was this age your fooling yourself if you say otherwise

 

an elite goalie is a goalie who is the most valuable player to there team , he takes his team to the next level and can win series by themselves (lundqvist,renne) howard is good and hes more important to our success with lidstrom gone  but datsyuk/zetterberg is more valuable to us and howard hasnt won any series for us by himself and mrazek has that ability

Lets dial back the hysteria around Mrazek a bit here, he's a good prospect but at this point he's nowhere near the level of Jimmy Howard and we'd be lucky if he ever is.

 

Playing great at the World Juniors isn't any sort of guarantee that you'll be able to do the same in the NHL especially as a goalie. The World Junior top goalie list is littered with guys who had absolutely no success in the NHL.

 

What we've seen of Mrazek at the NHL level has only told us one thing definitively, and that is he is not NHL ready yet.

He was ok in his first outing but faced very little in the way of difficult shots, then he was subpar in his second game before being returned to the minors. He hasn't played a single playoff game at any professional level, he didn't steal any series in the OHL, he stole 1 game in the World Juniors but didn't lead his team to any sort of medal and he hasn't won anything at the AHL level yet either so I'm not sure how you can classify him as someone who has the ability to steal a series.

 

I'm against trading him too, mostly because we lack depth in net throughout the organization but lets see how he develops for a few years before we anoint him the savior of the franchise.



#22 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

Nobody knows that Mrazek has the ability. He has the potential to.

 

Jimmy Howad also dominated the 2002 World Juniors and lead the US to a gold medal. Then he goes back to college hockey and leads his team to a final four championship game and lost the game 1-0. He set league records in college. Jimmy was also the first griffin goalie to be named to the all rookie team, and set several griffin records. Then his first NHL season he gets nominated for a Calder trophy and puts up top 5 SV% and GAA numbers better than Lundqvist, Bryzgalov, Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Rinne, Price, Luongo, Thomas.

 

His career numbers of .917 and 2.42 are not that far off of your elite criteria of .920 and 2.35 for Rinne. Or quick .915 and 2.32. How about Ryan Miller who everyone thought was elite a few years ago with .915 and 2.59.

 

Fact is Howard has proven to be an elite goalie. And he has been elite at every level.

 

No goalie is going to put up great numbers with this current Wing's team. They are awful at turning the puck over, and allow way too many high % chances. The only goalie that would do well would be Hasek, and the odds of Mrazek being Hasek are 1 in a million.

 

i just thank god your not the wings gm



#23 Carman

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

i just thank god your not the wings gm

I like Mrazek, I'm not saying to trade him for a rental.

 

His value is high, I agree with you.

 

But Where was I wrong on Howard? Can you please elaborate?



#24 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:58 PM

Lets dial back the hysteria around Mrazek a bit here, he's a good prospect but at this point he's nowhere near the level of Jimmy Howard and we'd be lucky if he ever is.

 

Playing great at the World Juniors isn't any sort of guarantee that you'll be able to do the same in the NHL especially as a goalie. The World Junior top goalie list is littered with guys who had absolutely no success in the NHL.

 

What we've seen of Mrazek at the NHL level has only told us one thing definitively, and that is he is not NHL ready yet.

He was ok in his first outing but faced very little in the way of difficult shots, then he was subpar in his second game before being returned to the minors. He hasn't played a single playoff game at any professional level, he didn't steal any series in the OHL, he stole 1 game in the World Juniors but didn't lead his team to any sort of medal and he hasn't won anything at the AHL level yet either so I'm not sure how you can classify him as someone who has the ability to steal a series.

 

I'm against trading him too, mostly because we lack depth in net throughout the organization but lets see how he develops for a few years before we anoint him the savior of the franchise.

 

he just turned 21 no sh*t hes not nhl ready goalies dont fully develop until there 23-25 ... he was the top goalie at the world juniors and hes already making an impact in the ahl at a very young age ... griffins were going nowhere until he showed up and last i checked they were 1st place in there division

 

as far as im concerned hes a franchise goalie and the future #1 ... ill gladly say i was a stupid idiot and wrong if he turns out to be garbage but i fully doubt ill be wrong on him ... hes untouchable

 

jake patterson is the trade bait to use when the time comes for a good piece



I like Mrazek, I'm not saying to trade him for a rental.

 

His value is high, I agree with you.

 

But Where was I wrong on Howard? Can you please elaborate?

 

 

howard is a good goalie and im glad we have him , hes put in solid work for us but i dont think hes an elite goalie heck i even watched tsn reports a while back and they rated goalies in the west and east and i dont even think howard cracked the top 5 goalies in the west

 

We'lll see if howard can really steal a series on his own this post season ... he never did it with lidstrom here so were really gonna need him now



http://www.tsn.ca/fa...ature/?ID=10466

 

 

here just found this

 

howard is ranked higher than  price rinne ward quick ... can you honestly say youd rather have howard than all those guys??



#25 Carman

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:07 PM

howard is ranked higher than  price rinne ward quick ... can you honestly say youd rather have howard than all those guys??

 

Yes.

 

Look at their career numbers.

 

Howard .917 with 2.42 gaa his best season was .924 and 2.26 GAA 2.25 million

Price .916 with 2.53 gaa his best season was .923 and 2.35 GAA 6.5 million

Rinne .920 with 2.35 gaa his best season was .930 and 2.12 GAA 7 million

Ward .910 with 2.74 GAA his best season was .923 and 2.56 GAA  6.3 million

Quick .915 with 2.32 GAA his best season was .929 and 1.95 GAA 5.4 million

 

I don't see the major difference, but you know where I do see? Look at salaries. Howard at 4-5 million is better.

 

And Rinne's and Quick's best season were behind defensively oriented clubs, not a type of team Howard is playing behind now.

I really think Howard gets underrated here, we finally get a very good goalie, and yet he's not good enough. If we were paying him Quick money, and then puts up .895 SV% like Quick is this year do you think we'd be happy?



#26 FlashyG

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:08 PM

he just turned 21 no sh*t hes not nhl ready goalies dont fully develop until there 23-25 ... he was the top goalie at the world juniors and hes already making an impact in the ahl at a very young age ... griffins were going nowhere until he showed up and last i checked they were 1st place in there division

 

as far as im concerned hes a franchise goalie and the future #1 ... ill gladly say i was a stupid idiot and wrong if he turns out to be garbage but i fully doubt ill be wrong on him ... hes untouchable

 

jake patterson is the trade bait to use when the time comes for a good piece



 

 

howard is a good goalie and im glad we have him , hes put in solid work for us but i dont think hes an elite goalie heck i even watched tsn reports a while back and they rated goalies in the west and east and i dont even think howard cracked the top 5 goalies in the west

 

We'lll see if howard can really steal a series on his own this post season ... he never did it with lidstrom here so were really gonna need him now

 

When Howard was 21 he also turned around the fortunes of the Griffins with #'s extremely similar to Mrazeks.

 

Mrazek is a great prospect but he's not in the stratosphere of a franchise goalie, Unless you mean an AHL franchise goalie, which might be true, but lets see how he performs in the playoffs first. 

 

He might become an NHL starter, there is also a slight chance he could become the Franchise goalie you keep calling him, but there is probably a bigger chance that he never sticks in the NHL at all then there is that he will become one of the NHL's elite netminders. That's not a knock on him either, its just the reality of goaltending at the NHL level.

 

Putting the expectation of him being a Franchise goalie as a 21 year old who's accomplished nothing as a professional is just setting the guy up to fail. Lets wait and see what we have before we start throwing those kind of projections around.



#27 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

he just turned 21 no sh*t hes not nhl ready goalies dont fully develop until there 23-25 ... he was the top goalie at the world juniors and hes already making an impact in the ahl at a very young age ... griffins were going nowhere until he showed up and last i checked they were 1st place in there division

 

as far as im concerned hes a franchise goalie and the future #1 ... ill gladly say i was a stupid idiot and wrong if he turns out to be garbage but i fully doubt ill be wrong on him ... hes untouchable

 

jake patterson is the trade bait to use when the time comes for a good piece



 

 

howard is a good goalie and im glad we have him , hes put in solid work for us but i dont think hes an elite goalie heck i even watched tsn reports a while back and they rated goalies in the west and east and i dont even think howard cracked the top 5 goalies in the west

 

We'lll see if howard can really steal a series on his own this post season ... he never did it with lidstrom here so were really gonna need him now



http://www.tsn.ca/fa...ature/?ID=10466

 

 

here just found this

 

howard is ranked higher than  price rinne ward quick ... can you honestly say youd rather have howard than all those guys??

 

there are only 3 goalies in the league that have faced as many shots as howie or more, that have put up better numbers than him. lundqvist, dubnyk, and niemi have better sv%. Rinne, lundqvist, and niemi have better gaa. 

 

Miller, Pavelec, Bryzgalov, nabakov and varlamov all have faced more shots then any of them and have put up lower numbers. So technically, there are only 3-4 goalies who currently have proved they are better then jimmy while receiving the same kind of attention in net. Although i don't if i would include Rinne as much becasue he has played 4 more games then any of those goalies, so he doesn't face the same amount of shots per game



#28 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

Yes.

 

Look at their career numbers.

 

Howard .917 with 2.42 gaa his best season was .924 and 2.26 GAA 2.25 million

Price .916 with 2.53 gaa his best season was .923 and 2.35 GAA 6.5 million

Rinne .920 with 2.35 gaa his best season was .930 and 2.12 GAA 7 million

Ward .910 with 2.74 GAA his best season was .923 and 2.56 GAA  6.3 million

Quick .915 with 2.32 GAA his best season was .929 and 1.95 GAA 5.4 million

 

I don't see the major difference, but you know where I do see? Look at salaries. Howard at 4-5 million is better.

 

And Rinne's and Quick's best season were behind defensively oriented clubs, not a type of team Howard is playing behind now.

I really think Howard gets underrated here, we finally get a very good goalie, and yet he's not good enough. If we were paying him Quick money, and then puts up .895 SV% like Quick is this year do you think we'd be happy?

ward won a cup mvp

 

quick won a cup mvp

 

 

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

 

 

your thinking with your heart not your head



When Howard was 21 he also turned around the fortunes of the Griffins with #'s extremely similar to Mrazeks.

 

Mrazek is a great prospect but he's not in the stratosphere of a franchise goalie, Unless you mean an AHL franchise goalie, which might be true, but lets see how he performs in the playoffs first. 

 

He might become an NHL starter, there is also a slight chance he could become the Franchise goalie you keep calling him, but there is probably a bigger chance that he never sticks in the NHL at all then there is that he will become one of the NHL's elite netminders. That's not a knock on him either, its just the reality of goaltending at the NHL level.

 

Putting the expectation of him being a Franchise goalie as a 21 year old who's accomplished nothing as a professional is just setting the guy up to fail. Lets wait and see what we have before we start throwing those kind of projections around.

 

 

your already expecting him to fail with your disbelief in he can be an nhl franchise goalie .... and yes i think he can be i surely dont think he can be an ahl franchise goalie hes got way more potential then just that



there are only 3 goalies in the league that have faced as many shots as howie or more, that have put up better numbers than him. lundqvist, dubnyk, and niemi have better sv%. Rinne, lundqvist, and niemi have better gaa. 

 

Miller, Pavelec, Bryzgalov, nabakov and varlamov all have faced more shots then any of them and have put up lower numbers. So technically, there are only 3-4 goalies who currently have proved they are better then jimmy while receiving the same kind of attention in net. Although i don't if i would include Rinne as much becasue he has played 4 more games then any of those goalies, so he doesn't face the same amount of shots per game

 

dont forget this is also a shortened season with no training camp and pre season hockey so i wouldnt put too much stock into this years stats , your telling me king henrik is over although hes been far from his usual self?

 

columbus a playoff team? a shortened season = alot of surprises



#29 Carman

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:19 PM

ward won a cup mvp

 

quick won a cup mvp

 

 

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

 

 

your thinking with your heart not your head

 

I find that ironic when I posted numbers. A goalie can only do so much, did you hold it against Hasek for 8 years before he won?

 

Fact is goalies in this league don't stay elite for long, Miller was amazing for a couple years, Luongo was briliant for a long time, Thomas put up ridiculous numbers, every Phoenix goalie puts up numbers. etc. Elite goalies are a rare commodity, and I'd venture to say their may not be an "elite" goalie ala Hasek, Roy, Brodeur playing right now.

 

It really depends on your definition, if all it takes is a good cup run to be elite then Fleury should be in their, along with Neimi, Thomas, Giguere. But if a goalie can't be elite without winning in the playoffs then you are leaving out a ton of great goalies.



#30 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:26 PM

ward won a cup mvp

 

quick won a cup mvp

 

 

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

 

 

your thinking with your heart not your head



 

 

your already expecting him to fail with your disbelief in he can be an nhl franchise goalie .... and yes i think he can be i surely dont think he can be an ahl franchise goalie hes got way more potential then just that



 

dont forget this is also a shortened season with no training camp and pre season hockey so i wouldnt put too much stock into this years stats , your telling me king henrik is over although hes been far from his usual self?

 

columbus a playoff team? a shortened season = alot of surprises

 

Excuse my confusion, but Carey Price who has played a total of 5 NHL seasons coming into this season, and has played much worse in the playoffs than howie, is still young and will be a future star, but jimmy howard who has played 3 seasons is a failure, because he hasn't won a cup?

 

ya, I'm using my head and not my heart here, and my head is telling me you're crazy...



#31 FlashyG

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

ward won a cup mvp

 

quick won a cup mvp

 

 

both those goalies are the reasons they won the cup and stole series for them ... howards won nothing

rinne is the only reason nashville even competes and price is just starting off but hes a future star

 

 

your thinking with your heart not your head



 

 

your already expecting him to fail with your disbelief in he can be an nhl franchise goalie .... and yes i think he can be i surely dont think he can be an ahl franchise goalie hes got way more potential then just that



 

dont forget this is also a shortened season with no training camp and pre season hockey so i wouldnt put too much stock into this years stats , your telling me king henrik is over although hes been far from his usual self?

 

columbus a playoff team? a shortened season = alot of surprises

 

The irony from your posts is astounding, you claim Carman is thinking with his heart not his head when he provides you evidence, all while you claim up and down that a guy with only 2 games of NHL experience is a franchise goalie.



#32 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

Pretty much everyone is tradeable. A center with size, the ability to step into the NHL at 19 and with such a high ceiling is well worth a top end G prospect. Ultimately Howard is the goalie for the next 5 years at least which makes Mrazek expendable. Is Courturier worth it? I'm not educated enough to say. But Mrazek is definitely tradeable.

 

Just say NO



#33 Carman

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

Just say NO

for a 20 year old 6'3 center? We already have a goalie, what we are missing is size.

 

Mrazek is very promising, but it's a win/win for both teams. We have Howard hopefully for the forseeable future, but we don't have a big top 6 center prospect.



#34 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:41 PM

I find that ironic when I posted numbers. A goalie can only do so much, did you hold it against Hasek for 8 years before he won?

 

Fact is goalies in this league don't stay elite for long, Miller was amazing for a couple years, Luongo was briliant for a long time, Thomas put up ridiculous numbers, every Phoenix goalie puts up numbers. etc. Elite goalies are a rare commodity, and I'd venture to say their may not be an "elite" goalie ala Hasek, Roy, Brodeur playing right now.

 

It really depends on your definition, if all it takes is a good cup run to be elite then Fleury should be in their, along with Neimi, Thomas, Giguere. But if a goalie can't be elite without winning in the playoffs then you are leaving out a ton of great goalies.

 

LOL are you f*cken serious right now????????  how many vezina's and mvps did hasek win???? howard?? PLEASE dont even compare hasek to howard PLEASE

 

and obviously winning the cup alone doesnt make you elite but winning series on your own and taking your team to the top by yourself and winning the mvp like ward and quick does

 

 

wait till howard wins just one series by himself and then you call him elite .... dont even bring up hasek again thats just an insult



Excuse my confusion, but Carey Price who has played a total of 5 NHL seasons coming into this season, and has played much worse in the playoffs than howie, is still young and will be a future star, but jimmy howard who has played 3 seasons is a failure, because he hasn't won a cup?

 

ya, I'm using my head and not my heart here, and my head is telling me you're crazy...

your the crazy one ... when did i ever say howard is a failure?????? i said hes played good for us and hes a good goalie i just wouldnt say hes ELITE ... and your right about price he hasnt proven himself yet but he does have all the tools and is still young , you go ask 30 gms if theyd rather want price or howard i  bet you an overwhelming amount of teams would rather have price



The irony from your posts is astounding, you claim Carman is thinking with his heart not his head when he provides you evidence, all while you claim up and down that a guy with only 2 games of NHL experience is a franchise goalie.

 

 

so people were stupid when they said luongo was a franchise goalie on draft day? marc andre fleury(even though hes been bad has been the number 1 and won a cup) there are plenty of goalies who never played an nhl game yet and were being touted as franchise goalies

 

Just because mrazek played 2 nhl games doesnt mean he doesnt have what it takes to be a franchise guy



#35 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:41 PM

LOL are you f*cken serious right now????????  how many vezina's and mvps did hasek win???? howard?? PLEASE dont even compare hasek to howard PLEASE

 

and obviously winning the cup alone doesnt make you elite but winning series on your own and taking your team to the top by yourself and winning the mvp like ward and quick does

 

 

wait till howard wins just one series by himself and then you call him elite .... dont even bring up hasek again thats just an insult



your the crazy one ... when did i ever say howard is a failure?????? i said hes played good for us and hes a good goalie i just wouldnt say hes ELITE ... and your right about price he hasnt proven himself yet but he does have all the tools and is still young , you go ask 30 gms if theyd rather want price or howard i  bet you an overwhelming amount of teams would rather have price

 

you bank on Mrazek being the saviour of the wings because he has played good in one year at the AHL level, but Jimmy who has proved to be able to put up numbers every year along side the best of the best is just a good/average goalie... but carey price is a much better goalie because he is 3 years younger?



#36 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

for a 20 year old 6'3 center? We already have a goalie, what we are missing is size.

 

Mrazek is very promising, but it's a win/win for both teams. We have Howard hopefully for the forseeable future, but we don't have a big top 6 center prospect.

 

 

sheahan has the potential to one day play on the top 6 ... not saying hes better but it wouldnt cost us your ridiculous trade proposal who lets not all forget with this mrazek talk includes ouellet whos a potential top defensemen whos a good all around defensemen



you bank on Mrazek being the saviour of the wings because he has played good in one year at the AHL level, but Jimmy who has proved to be able to put up numbers every year along side the best of the best is just a good/average goalie... but carey price is a much better goalie because he is 3 years younger?

 

 

once again i said howard is a good goalie and hes been good for us .... dont put average when i didnt say average , hes a good goalie just not on the upper echelon  why would you wanna get rid of someone who has the potential to be a great goalie makes no sense

 

why isnt one suggesting throwing in jake patterson instead of mrazek? whats with you guys ... calgary wanted malcolm subban in return for iginla but boston refused ... you know why ? cause you dont give up on those types of goalies

 

prices has the tools to be elite thats all im saying and if you ask alot of gms most would take price over howard



#37 Carman

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:49 PM

sheahan has the potential to one day play on the top 6 ... not saying hes better but it wouldnt cost us your ridiculous trade proposal who lets not all forget with this mrazek talk includes ouellet whos a potential top defensemen whos a good all around defensemen

 

And Courturier is a 20 year old with potential to be a top line center.

 

The difference is we have Sproul, Backman, Jensen, Deykeyser, Smith, Lashoff, Kindl etc.

 

What's our big center depth look like? Sheahan, Andersson ???? And they don't project to be top 6 players, Sheahan has an outside shot though.

 

I don't know, I think you guys are undervaluing Courturier, if he was in our system you would most likely be signing a different tune. IMO

   

#38 nyqvististhefuture

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

And Courturier is a 20 year old with potential to be a top line center.

 

The difference is we have Sproul, Backman, Jensen, Deykeyser, Smith, Lashoff, Kindl etc.

 

What's our big center depth look like? Sheahan, Andersson ???? And they don't project to be top 6 players, Sheahan has an outside shot though.

 

I don't know, I think you guys are undervaluing Courturier, if he was in our system you would most likely be signing a different tune. IMO

   

 

 

im not undervaluing couturier i know hes a good player and would fit in with alot of teams but i wouldnt in anyway give up what your suggesting to aquire him

 

id rather trade patterson and nyquist at this point  .... the flyers will only trade him for an established nhler anyways so all this talk is for nothing



#39 Hockeymom1960

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:11 PM

When Howard was 21 he also turned around the fortunes of the Griffins with #'s extremely similar to Mrazeks.

 

Mrazek is a great prospect but he's not in the stratosphere of a franchise goalie, Unless you mean an AHL franchise goalie, which might be true, but lets see how he performs in the playoffs first. 

 

He might become an NHL starter, there is also a slight chance he could become the Franchise goalie you keep calling him, but there is probably a bigger chance that he never sticks in the NHL at all then there is that he will become one of the NHL's elite netminders. That's not a knock on him either, its just the reality of goaltending at the NHL level.

 

Putting the expectation of him being a Franchise goalie as a 21 year old who's accomplished nothing as a professional is just setting the guy up to fail. Lets wait and see what we have before we start throwing those kind of projections around.

 

And where is Jimmy right now?



#40 Euro_Twins

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:22 PM

And where is Jimmy right now?

 

well after his dreams of becoming an elite nhl goalie got squashed by the LGW gm's he started doing drugs and drinking, before too long he was broke, a washed up has been, never to play an nhl game again, only to remember his past failures of not stealing an entire stanley cup run in his rookie year...



oh and of course he had to watch the future Martin Brodeur, or as we know him by his real name Petr Mrazek steal every game for the wings, and go on to win, the selke, lady byng, norris, calser, art ross, vezina, conn smythe and the LGW you have my approval trophies







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