• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Din758

ESPN: The 7 deadly sins of roster construction

Rate this topic

42 posts in this topic

We like our team

The usage of this quote was clever at first. Several thousand uses later, it is getting very tiresome, even more so because it comes up in almost every single thread about the team.

Edited by Crymson
Carman, FireCaptain and ogreslayer like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd add #3 and #4.

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

5. Paying on potential - Who?

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL. And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term". And none of them are crippling us.

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson. Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report". His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else. But the rest? Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.

Edited by Nev

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

5. Paying on potential - Who

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL. And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term".

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can be pinned on Holland too - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson. Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report". His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else. But the rest? Having said that, its not like they're crippling us.

Cleary's NTC lasted only for the first three seasons of his contract.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The usage of this quote was clever at first. Several thousand uses later, it is getting very tiresome, even more so because it comes up in almost every single thread about the team.

This I agree with

If you dislike this iteration of the Wings so much, then go cheer for another team.

This not so much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

5. Paying on potential - Who?

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL. And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term". And none of them are crippling us.

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson. Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report". His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else. But the rest? Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.

#5 could possibly be for Filppula, who only reached his potential for 1 season and then retuned to old Flip this year. When he signed, a lot of people wondered why he was getting 3 mil including myself. The other player may be Ericsson. Same story as Flip. He's playing really good now, but when he signed, he was a 1.5 mil per Dman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#5 could possibly be for Filppula, who only reached his potential for 1 season and then retuned to old Flip this year. When he signed, a lot of people wondered why he was getting 3 mil including myself. The other player may be Ericsson. Same story as Flip. He's playing really good now, but when he signed, he was a 1.5 mil per Dman.

Kronwall got five years at $3m too, and proved to be totally worth it. As for Filppula, 2nd-line centers don't come cheap, and he performs adequately. He hasn't panned out as well as Kronwall, but he's OK for the price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The usage of this quote was clever at first. Several thousand uses later, it is getting very tiresome, even more so because it comes up in almost every single thread about the team.

Ok then ignore it.

Serratoni and 55fan like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

5. Paying on potential - Who?

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL. And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term". And none of them are crippling us.

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson. Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report". His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else. But the rest? Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.

I'm going to address #5 only, because I mostly agree with you on everything else. I do think Holland has a problem with paying for potential, but perhaps not in the sense that Custance was talking about. Custance spoke about paying young guys more than they've show they're worth. Holland did this in the case of Ericsson, who has since played well enough to earn his raise, so no problems there. But he does have a tendency to pay guys for past potential. Sammy, Colaiacovo, Quincey and to a lesser extent White, Gustavsson, and Tootoo are all getting paid for what they'd done in the past, in hopes that they'd be able to recreate that success.

Sammy is getting paid more than he ever has in his career and is two years removed from his career high seasons with Van...and he's 36.

Colaiacovo is getting paid more than he ever has and he's two years removed from his career best 32 pts. and hasn't played more than 67 games in four years.

Quincey is getting paid more than he ever has and he's three years removed from his career best 38 pts.

White is making slightly less ($100,000) than his career best and (when signed) was four years removed from his career best 26 pts. It should be noted that last year he outperformed all his previous seasons so one could argue he exceeded expectations, but that was not a given when he signed.

Gustavsson is making more than he's ever made, and is coming off a season that is roughly average for him in his short career.

Finally, Tootoo is making more than he's ever made, though he is coming off a career year, it was statistically an anomaly considering he'd never put that kind of production up at any point during his career.

Obviously some of these aren't as bad as others, but in every sense these guys got raises based on past play or random success. Nothing proven with any of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#5 could possibly be for Filppula, who only reached his potential for 1 season and then retuned to old Flip this year. When he signed, a lot of people wondered why he was getting 3 mil including myself. The other player may be Ericsson. Same story as Flip. He's playing really good now, but when he signed, he was a 1.5 mil per Dman.

Flip had only played two seasons, so it does apply a little. However, $3M for a defensively responsible 3rd-line center who could put up ~40 points and step into a top-6 role was a fair price, even back when he signed. Last year he was one of the best bargains in the league.

I'm going to address #5 only, because I mostly agree with you on everything else. I do think Holland has a problem with paying for potential, ... Sammy, Colaiacovo, Quincey and to a lesser extent White, Gustavsson, and Tootoo are all getting paid for what they'd done in the past, in hopes that they'd be able to recreate that success. .

I think you're being a bit too liberal with that definition. By your definition, every player in the league is being paid for potential since you never know for sure how someone will perform.

While most of the players you listed are making more than they have in the past, that should be expected in most cases given how the cap has gone up and that most are still in their prime years. None of them a paid all that much, or anything particularly out of line with what could reasonably be expected given their history.

Your stats for White are off. He scored 38 in 09-10, and 26 in 10-11. 26, 21, and 26 his other 3 seasons. He's paid like a 4/5 tweener. He didn't have to match or exceed any career numbers to be worth what we paid.

Quincey was paid like 3/4. Again, we didn't need him to put up career numbers to be worth it. The numbers he had in LA would have made him a bit of a bargain. The numbers he put up in his two healthy years in Colorado would have been fine. There was little reason to assume he wouldn't be able to do so.

Cola was paid like a 4/5. 60 games and 20 points would have been fine. Again, no particular reason to think he couldn't have done that.

Gus is paid like a backup goalie expected to be able to put at least some pressure on Howie. Given how he'd played in Toronto, that's a perfectly reasonable expectation.

Tootoo I don't think is being paid for points. With the energy and grit he brings, 15-20 points would be fine for a full season, and that's below his career PPG numbers.

Giving Sammy 2 years was maybe questionable, with the injury trouble he had last year. But he was still scoring at a 20g/40p+ pace last year. He's been good for .5 ppg+ pretty much every year post-lockout. He didn't need to score 30g or 50p to earn $3M. 15-20g, 35-40p would have earned his deal and would have been a reasonable expectation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3. Waiting too long to trade a player - Who?

4. Skipping the bridge contract - Who?

5. Paying on potential - Who?

6. Long-term contracts beyond a players' prime - OK, fair enough Franzen and Zetterberg, even though they can retire or be bought out for cheap the last few years, and they were the SOP for bringing down the cap hit across the NHL. And giving an extra year on Sammy and Berts contracts, but I don't think 1 year can be classed as "long term". And none of them are crippling us.

1. Handing out too many, over-restrictive no-movement clauses - I think this one can legitimately be pinned on Holland - Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Ericsson, Gustavson. Bert I can imagine was just formalising a gentlemans agreement ie "if you trade me, I'll refuse to report". His family are from just over the border and its clear he doesn't want to play anywhere else. But the rest? Having said that, its not like they're crippling us either.

As far as #1 is concerned, I think the key words in the title are "over-restrictive". Kenny has handed out 6 NTC's to players on our roster and 1 NMC. The NMC was to Datsyuk and it expired in 2011, it's now just a partial NTC.

Of the other 6 No Trade deals, Cleary's has expired completely, plus Bertuzzi's, Gustavsson's and Ericsson are all on modified NTC's making them less restrictive. The only 2 full NTC's on the team are for Kronwall and Samuelsson, and one of those was on a short term deal. In 2018, Kronwall's deal changes to a Modified NTC where he can submit 10 teams the Wings can deal him to.

I don't think the NMC/NTC's handed out to the Wings players are very restrictive at all with the exception of Kronwall's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With Howard's signing today, we've got about 12.6 million to sign 5 guys. Flip and Brunner will be getting reasonable raises, and Nyquist, Andersson, Kindl and Smith are all in for minor raises. Really no need to be worried, I think, but I really hope they use a buyout on Samuelsson. I'd rather them be comfortable than nearly up against it, keeping a guy who isn't going to make much of an impact.

I wouldn't mind them using one on Colaiacovo too, but I feel like Holland will want to keep around for the sake of depth. Lashoff is a serviceable NHL defender, but beyond him, who would they call up from the Griffins in case of injury? Almqvist? Lashoff might be better served to start the year in the AHL, as opposed to as their 7th defender.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holland's only mistake off of this lsit, is the long term contracts to Franzen, Kronwall, and Z. All 3 contracts go for another 7 years, when all 3 players are 40+. 14 million per year cap hit for those 3 guys. The chances that more than 1 is still playing in the NHL is very very low.

The not trading guys, is a more general issue. he never trades players that could bring a good return, nor does he dump guyss that we are not bringing back, for extra picks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holland's only mistake off of this lsit, is the long term contracts to Franzen, Kronwall, and Z. All 3 contracts go for another 7 years, when all 3 players are 40+. 14 million per year cap hit for those 3 guys. The chances that more than 1 is still playing in the NHL is very very low.

The not trading guys, is a more general issue. he never trades players that could bring a good return, nor does he dump guyss that we are not bringing back, for extra picks.

Let's assume they all retire at 38, which may be realistic. Their contracts come off the books cause they were signed before 35. Then we'll take into account that apparently the NHL came back stronger than ever again after yet another lockout....so the cap will go up from 64.3 mil in a year in all likelyhood. The more the cap goes up, the less we mind the contracts they have. The contracts I hate are the one's overpaying 3rd and 4th liners and depth D like Sammy, Cleary, Quincey, White etc. when we should be seeing the young guys come up to stop whining about overripe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0