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13dangledangle

Official Franzen VS Hossa

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Actual cap info for the 2009-10 season. Where exactly would Hossa's $5m+ cap hit have fit with this team?

(rounding cap #s)

Datsyuk: $6.7m

Zetterberg: $6.08m

Franzen: $4m

Filppula: $3m

Cleary: $2.8m

Holmstrom: $2.25m

Draper: $1.6m

Bertuzzi: $1.5m

Williams: $1.5m

Maltby: $900k

Helm: $600k

Leino: $530k

Abdelkader: $520k

Eaves: $500k

Miller: $413k

May: $330k

Lidstrom: $7.45m

Rafalski: $6m

Stuart: $3.75m

Kronwall: $3m

Lilja: $1.25m

Ericsson: $900k

Lebda: $650k

Meech: $483k

Osgood: $1.4m

Howard: $716k

Spending: $58,827,920

Cap limit: $56,800,000

LTIR credit: $2,027,920

FYI, I left off players with an actual cap hit of less than 50% of their max hit during the season like callups (Kindl, Larsson), waived (Ritola), or traded for at the deadline and never played. (Tollefsen)

Edited by ogreslayer

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Guest RedWingsDad   
Guest RedWingsDad

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers (9,2m, what?) and his cap hit is 5.275m and the contract comes off when he retires, but I'd sure be happy if Hossa is bought out (which probably won't happen) and we can sign him.

ppshh, ever since Hossa signed with Chicago and made a public statement that he was now playing in the real hockeytown... he has been my enemy. I don't want him.

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ppshh, ever since Hossa signed with Chicago and made a public statement that he was now playing in the real hockeytown... he has been my enemy. I don't want him.

Technically ever since he joined there they HAVE iced a better team, that being said I really do not care that we did not sign him. Everyone saying he is way more consistent is a liar, he is quite streaky as well, and guess what, for the fact checkers, 31 points in 40 games this year, and franzen had 31 points in 41 games.

hossa was a +16 on a team that scored way more goals and had a +53 goal differential, while Franzen was a +13 on a team with 31 goals less scored, and 13 goals more against, with a +9 goal differential.

Anyone who can refer to him as one dimensional (see hudler) is dreaming, and anyone who claims hossa to be 10X the player, is lying.

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You're the first person I've ever seen call Franzen a one-dimensional player.

Franzen in a one-dimensional player. He is great at scoring goals when his line mates do most of the work for him. He doesn't make plays, he doesn't forecheck, he doesn't back check, he doesn't cycle, he doesn't battle along the boards. If Hossa isn't scoring goals, he is still do an enormous amount for the team (see: 2009 playoffs). If Franzen isn't scoring goals, he may as well not be on the ice.

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I'm a huge Hossa fan, I think he's one of if not the best winger in the game considering his two way play. But I understand where the Wings were at that time, I really would have preferred both of them, but there is no way that was possible at the time, and the only way it seems possible now is the sudden Rafalski retirement.

Franzen was a home grown guy that just exploded in the playoffs, there is no way in the world a team would let him go.

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I gotta get going, but i'll leave this here real quick. Its 2005-06 - last season, including Hossa's incredible 90/100 pt seasons, and Franzen's Colorado thrashing. Enjoy

Sws02ht.jpg

This analysis is flawed because it fails to factor in the 2+ seasons Franzen was a 4th line checking forward while Hossa was the top 1-2 players on his team and playing on the first line and power play.

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Still busy, but I was able to make this while I had a few minutes. Graph shows PPG over the course of regular seasons, 05-06 - current season;

fKjv61A.jpg

To me this paints the picture that I always thought represented reality.

Both players are very consistent (since The Choice ).Hossa is a slightly better point producer than Franzen. Not by any means head and shoulders better. Their cap hits reflect this. Don't really know why there is a debate here tbh. I guess you should look at playoffs too.

Edited by Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

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Question for everyone who thinks Kenny should have signed Hossa to the same/similar contract that he got from Chicago: How comfortable would you be having a cap hit of ~$4.6m a year on the books for 4 years starting in the 2017-18 season until the contract's end when Hossa retires after the 2016-17 season at the age of 38? Or lets say he does make it to 40. That would mean a ~$9.2m a season cap hit in 2019-20 & 2020-21. That's what Chicago is facing which is why he's a good buy out candidate in the off season.

If they buy out Hossa, Holland best be the first one on the phone! Offering him $4M a season for 8 years...

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I HATE this question. I hear it all the time on LGW, as if it was some clear A vs. B choice. Nobody ever says "Why did we keep Zetterberg or Kronwall instead of Hossa", even though those guys have more comparable contracts - they only want to compare the two LH-shooting Euro power forwards.

Here is why I lose ZERO sleep over the Hossa vs. Franzen thing:

  • Hossa was a known mercenary from the day we signed him. He was a mercenary for Pittsburgh, and he was a stopgap solution for us. If both sides had been so committed to keeping Hossa here long term, he would've gotten more than the glorified "Alex Semin" one-year deal that he got in July 2008 from us (1 year, $7.45 mil, IIRC)
  • Franzen and Hossa were roughly the same age (both born in 1979) and have similarities in their game, so spending $10 mil + on the same type of player would have been superfluous when we needed to sign goaltending and defense at the time.
  • At the end of 2009, Franzen's reputation was as a clutch playoff performer, whereas Hossa had a disappointing playoff performance, which soured the fanbase on him. (The same fanbase, btw, ignores the fact that Datsyuk scored all of 1 goal in the '09 Playoffs on a bad foot, and celebrates Lidstrom's toughness for his "groin" injury, while ignoring played all 23 games with a destroyed shoulder)
  • Franzen's contract was FAR more favorable heading into an uncertain CBA situation. Not only is the cap hit about $1.3 million less, but it's a year shorter, and notably less egregious in terms of circumventing the CBA with "backdiver" provisions, which was a growing concern of the NHL at that time, as they cracked down on the Kovalchuk deal
  • While both are "power forwards" (and Hossa's defensive game is admittedly better), Franzen seemed the more likely of the two to assume the role of "guy who stands in front of the net, screens goalies, and picks up garbage goals. Holmstrom was on his way out, and the Wings really hadn't been absent a player of that type dating back to Ciccarelli in the mid-90's. Hossa is a better overall player, but (particularly in the '09 Playoffs), he plays more of a finesse game and stays on the perimeter a bit.
  • Amnesty buyout. This whole conversation basically became moot anyway in the 2013 CBA. If Franzen's contract is so bad, they can just buy it out, rather than keeping it until 2020. If they don't do that, and elect to keep him despite the lower salary cap and other changes in the CBA, that tells you that they probably still view it as a pretty good contract.
  • The Hossa signing only "worked" for Chicago because they had to bend and twist the 2005 CBA in every way possible. It was perceived at the time that it might cost them one of their other core players down the road, like Duncan Keith. What they did instead was bury Huet in the minors (which you can no longer do) and thin out all their role players, which led to early exits in 2011 and 2012. They have since rebuilt those lower lines, so the Hossa experiment has "worked", but it's not clear that it also would have "worked" for us.

Holy **** dude incredibly well put.

/topic

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I will just put it out there that I did not start nor suggest this thread. I just said in the other thread that if we beat the Hawks or if Franzen outscores Hossa win or lose, I will never complain about "The Choice" again. I may still complain about Franzen or wish for a trade, but the comparison and choice I wanted will never be mentioned.

That being said, again if the Hawks buyout Hossa I am praying that he becomes a Red Wing for the next 8 years and we can have both of these guys! Sniper problem soved...debate over! :D

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Hossa, Parise, it doesn't matter. Those guys are good, but they want the money. Chicago payed dearly to get Hossa, and let go of some really good players that they miss. I don't think buying players like that wins you a Cup. Detroit is all about players playing Detroit's system and style.... I have doubts about Parise fitting in well here. Hossa was a beast for us during the regular season and no doubt helped us get into the playoffs with home ice advantages. However, come playoffs it is a different story and him showing up in 3 games (He scored in 3 game 4s, IIRC) in our 09 Cup run doesn't spell that large of a difference from Franzen IMO.

Ovechkin is/was a threat (playoff choker), but I would not want him on the Wings.

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Funny thing is at the time I completely agreed with Holland's decision to keep Franzen instead of Hossa. But right now looking back on it I would def rather have Hossa. I love the Mule and all, but Hossa's game is at a slightly higher level and he's definitely more consistent. Hopefully Franzen will have a huge series and change some ppl's minds. But as of right this moment I have to say Hossa > Franzen

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Technically ever since he joined there they HAVE iced a better team,

Not true. The Wings won the division in 2010-2011 and made it to the 2nd round. The Blackhawks backed into the playoffs on the last day of the season, making it only because the Stars failed to win their last game. The Blackhawks then lost out in the first round against the Canucks. By no means were the Blackhawks the better team in that season. The two teams in 2011-2012 were roughly equal overall.

that being said I really do not care that we did not sign him. Everyone saying he is way more consistent is a liar, he is quite streaky as well, and guess what, for the fact checkers, 31 points in 40 games this year, and franzen had 31 points in 41 games.

Yep, Hossa is indeed a streaky player. Blackhawks fans have lodged that complaint about him regularly. His only consistent season with the Blackhawks thus far came in '11-'12.

hossa was a +16 on a team that scored way more goals and had a +53 goal differential, while Franzen was a +13 on a team with 31 goals less scored, and 13 goals more against, with a +9 goal differential.

Anyone who can refer to him as one dimensional (see hudler) is dreaming, and anyone who claims hossa to be 10X the player, is lying.

Very well put. I think that the mean comparisons made between the two spring, in the main, from a combination of hindsight and grass-is-greener thinking.

I will just put it out there that I did not start nor suggest this thread. I just said in the other thread that if we beat the Hawks or if Franzen outscores Hossa win or lose, I will never complain about "The Choice" again. I may still complain about Franzen or wish for a trade, but the comparison and choice I wanted will never be mentioned.

That's fair. Kudos.

That being said, again if the Hawks buyout Hossa I am praying that he becomes a Red Wing for the next 8 years and we can have both of these guys! Sniper problem soved...debate over! :D

It's unlikely to happen. Even if the Blackhawks do use an amnesty buyout on Hossa, he must then pass through a waiver system. The Wings will be quite a ways down the list, and I have no doubt that the likes of Colorado or Florida (Dale Tallon, anyone?) would be happy to take on his contract.

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Hindsight is 20-20.

At the time when Hossa played heis season here, I bet a lot of people were going to side with Franzen given his tear in the playoffs those two seasons in 2008 and 2009, and Hossa only producing sparingly in certain games in 2009. Even with Hossa taking a bit of a backseat role in the goal-scoring/point production department when the Hawks won it all in 2010.

With their entire bodies of work, it's not even close, Hossa.

That being said however, true Franzen can be inconsistent at times, but I still think over the recent years when he started to become more of a goal scorer, at least in the postseason the only year he barely made a dent was last season. The season before he had the sprained ankle which really inhibited him, so going to give him some slack for that in 2010. 2007 when the Wings got eliminated in the conference Finals he started to show some offensive potential and 2008 and 2009 he went on a tear obviously. And, so far he's been involved in this playoff year very well.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan

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It's unlikely to happen. Even if the Blackhawks do use an amnesty buyout on Hossa, he must then pass through a waiver system. The Wings will be quite a ways down the list, and I have no doubt that the likes of Colorado or Florida (Dale Tallon, anyone?) would be happy to take on his contract.

Pretty sure that's incorrect. Players need to go through waivers before teams can buy them out. Once the buy out is complete, the player immediately becomes a UFA.

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This discussion is stupid. We have Franzen and the Hawks have Hossa and you can't make hypothetical arguments when we don't know how good Hossa would make the Wings and how Franzen would play if we let him go.

Holland has made more egregious errors in my opinion than the Hossa/Franzen choice. Personally, not even getting into contact with Semin and perpetuating the idea that veterans are safe here (loyalty is one thing, but complete amnesty is another) is bigger than the choice between a guy who can score 40 and a guy who can score 30-35.

Besides, it has been 3+ years since Hossa has been off the team. We can't dwell on it forever, right?

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Guest DeGraa55   
Guest DeGraa55

This discussion is stupid. We have Franzen and the Hawks have Hossa and you can't make hypothetical arguments when we don't know how good Hossa would make the Wings and how Franzen would play if we let him go.

Holland has made more egregious errors in my opinion than the Hossa/Franzen choice. Personally, not even getting into contact with Semin and perpetuating the idea that veterans are safe here (loyalty is one thing, but complete amnesty is another) is bigger than the choice between a guy who can score 40 and a guy who can score 30-35.

Besides, it has been 3+ years since Hossa has been off the team. We can't dwell on it forever, right?

I agree idk why its still talked about. And I also think not going after semin was a mistake. But to me the biggest mistake was Hollands deals and extensions. I think the amount of time given go franzen z and kronwall was too long. But at least with kronwall and z even as they get older and decline they bring so much more to the team. Where as franzen declines his numbers will drop...and he sucks at everything else as is. The other thing was giving two years to Colo Sammy and monster. I understand the need for veteran depth cause we had a lot if unknowns. But now with two years it cripples us this off season. Yes we can use a buyout but even then we got more than two guys that need to be bought out.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

I agree idk why its still talked about. And I also think not going after semin was a mistake.

Only the Hurricanes were willing to take a chance on him. That is telling.

But to me the biggest mistake was Hollands deals and extensions. I think the amount of time given go franzen z and kronwall was too long. But at least with kronwall and z even as they get older and decline they bring so much more to the team. Where as franzen declines his numbers will drop...and he sucks at everything else as is.

All-star captains and first-pairing defensemen are difficult to come by. As for Franzen... well, if you think he sucks at everything besides scoring, then I'm not sure you pay much attention to him when he's on the ice.

The other thing was giving two years to Colo Sammy and monster. I understand the need for veteran depth cause we had a lot if unknowns. But now with two years it cripples us this off season. Yes we can use a buyout but even then we got more than two guys that need to be bought out.

Given that Holland will have $12m with which to work this summer, I fail to see how the presence of those contracts "cripples" the team.

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Given that Holland will have $12m with which to work this summer, I fail to see how the presence of those contracts "cripples" the team.

This is true, as long as he doesn't give Val more than 1/3 of it... also if he wants to get a sniper (which the whole world knows we need) he will have to cut salary as well....(trade, buyout, bury)

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