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Official Franzen VS Hossa


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#1 13dangledangle

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:09 AM

LEFTWINGER:
"Ok, here it goes.... The ever on going debate Hossa or Franzen, Franzen or Hossa, which one should we have kept?  This series, for me, will end it.  Every last one of you no doubt know my opinion of Franzen and the choice I wish Holland would have made...BUT this will end it."
 
 
        I think this add's a fun element to the series! Hopefully it will come as a horseshoe perfectly fit for a Mule...


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#2 Nevermind

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:38 AM

Don't worry guys. The 2nd round is pretty fun. :)

 

(see:  Mule v. Colorado, 2008)



#3 DeGraa55

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:53 AM

This isn't even a debate. Hossa is ten times the player franzen will ever be. But with that said they both got terrible contracts and five years from franzens will suck less(iirc franzen has like 8 years 4m per and bossa 8m per for about same time right...could be wrong).


And ONE SERIES DOESNT END A DEBATE. How many times do people need to be told its about body of work. 1 game or 1 series or 1 month means little compared to say 3 seasons or more. 3 years is my typical rule when I judge players. One year flukes are common but if someone does it for 10 years that's success.

#4 LeftWinger

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:10 AM

Well considering the guy above is pretty new to these parts, he/she obviously doesn't understand what my statement meant in respect to these forums.

 

No, one series does not end a debate in general and I am still of the opinion that Hossa is a better player than Franzen.  Even if We win and Franzen outscores Hosse, my personal opinion will still be that...  BUT the folks that have been around here since "The Choice" know exactly what my statement meant and means to me. Whether or not I think Hossa is a better player, if we beat Chicago or Franzen outscores Hossa (win or lose) I will never compare them again, or complain about "The Choice."

 

^ Why so serious all the time? I feel like I get lectured everytime I read one of those posts.... 


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#5 SaCkaveli20

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:30 AM

Who cares, we have Danny Cleary.

#6 Manny>Ozzie(by a long shot)

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:15 AM

I think Hossa's cap hit is only 5.2/ year. I think Kenny should have found a way to keep both, but I digress...I Like Our Team ©

Obviously I remember the Choice, and I think seeing them head to head will help us come to an understanding. Playoffs matter most, and when you have two players head to head, there's nothing better.
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#7 evilzyme

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:04 AM

I'm on my phone so can't type that much but besides 2 way play, didn't someone do the stats and their production is damn near the same and/or mule actually out-preforms hossa? It may have been on hfb... I'll have to check it out.

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#8 LeftWinger

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:11 AM

I think Hossa's cap hit is only 5.2/ year. I think Kenny should have found a way to keep both, but I digress...I Like Our Team ©

Obviously I remember the Choice, and I think seeing them head to head will help us come to an understanding. Playoffs matter most, and when you have two players head to head, there's nothing better.

 

Amen!

 

That season, not only was Holland debating which one to keep, he also was holding $3.5M aside for Hudler to decide what he wanted to do.  OF course we all know Hudler turned down the $3.5M offer and ran off to Russia only to get awarded a lessor contract of $2.8M.  We also lost Sammy to Vancouver for $2.5M per season. Then they had to sign Bertuzzi and J. Willy later that summer to try to make up for losing both Hossa and Hudler.  Bertuzzi an Williams both signed for $1.5M for one season so technically they could have signed Franzen for his $3.9M cap hit and instead of holding out $3.5M for Hudler and giving Bertuzzi and Williams $1.5M, they could have had Hossa for his $5.2M hit...

 

So, Franzen and Hossa would have cost $10.1M combined...

 

Hudler (offer) Franzen. Betuzzi, Williams cost us $10.4 and probably another Cup.

 

The only thing I am not sure of is whether or not Bert and Willy were signed using Hudler's money after he bolted or not...if that were the case then no, we could not have had both Franzen and Hossa. We just didn't have the Cap space...I know Holland always wanted Bertuzzi back so I think he was going to sign him anyway.  But looking back in the archives at capgeek, the Wings had $0 available in cap space that year so, I do think that Bert and Willy were signed using Hudler's offer.

 

Too bad too, could you imagine this team with BOTH Hossa and Franzen still on it? As a matter of fact, that year the Wings finished with 112 points they were 3rd overall in points and Franzen had a career year with 34 goals among 59 points and Hossa had 40 goals among 71 points. Would have been great to keep both! Damn you Uncle Gary!!!!

 

Of course if a couple of other happened, Maltby retired early, we didn't sign Brad May, maybe, just maybe it could have happened...the World May Never Know©!


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#9 GoalieManPat

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:27 AM

Hossa is by far the better player. The only thing consistent in Franzens game is his inconsistency  When hes in one of his 20 game goal droughts he brings nothing else to the team with his floating around. Hossa plays hard every game and is atleast a threat the defense needs to pay attention to every shift even if hes not scoring. 



#10 Z and D for the C

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:55 AM

Hossa is by far the better player. The only thing consistent in Franzens game is his inconsistency  When hes in one of his 20 game goal droughts he brings nothing else to the team with his floating around. Hossa plays hard every game and is atleast a threat the defense needs to pay attention to every shift even if hes not scoring. 

 

This. Franzen isn't even close to Hossa's level.


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#11 ogreslayer

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:56 AM

Question for everyone who thinks Kenny should have signed Hossa to the same/similar contract that he got from Chicago: How comfortable would you be having a cap hit of ~$4.6m a year on the books for 4 years starting in the 2017-18 season until the contract's end when Hossa retires after the 2016-17 season at the age of 38?  Or lets say he does make it to 40.  That would mean a ~$9.2m a season cap hit in 2019-20 & 2020-21.  That's what Chicago is facing which is why he's a good buy out candidate in the off season.



#12 GoOzzieGo

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:01 AM

I'm on my phone so can't type that much but besides 2 way play, didn't someone do the stats and their production is damn near the same and/or mule actually out-preforms hossa? It may have been on hfb... I'll have to check it out.

Since the choice.....22 more games, 14 more goals, 39 more assists and 53 more points.....all in favor of Hossa.



#13 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:03 AM

pfff who would want a guy named a girls name like Marian when we have DA MULE!!!


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#14 Z and D for the C

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:06 AM

Question for everyone who thinks Kenny should have signed Hossa to the same/similar contract that he got from Chicago: How comfortable would you be having a cap hit of ~$4.6m a year on the books for 4 years starting in the 2017-18 season until the contract's end when Hossa retires after the 2016-17 season at the age of 38?  Or lets say he does make it to 40.  That would mean a ~$9.2m a season cap hit in 2019-20 & 2020-21.  That's what Chicago is facing which is why he's a good buy out candidate in the off season.

 

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers (9,2m, what?) and his cap hit is 5.275m and the contract comes off when he retires, but I'd sure be happy if Hossa is bought out (which probably won't happen) and we can sign him.


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#15 Euro_Twins

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:09 AM

Question for everyone who thinks Kenny should have signed Hossa to the same/similar contract that he got from Chicago: How comfortable would you be having a cap hit of ~$4.6m a year on the books for 4 years starting in the 2017-18 season until the contract's end when Hossa retires after the 2016-17 season at the age of 38?  Or lets say he does make it to 40.  That would mean a ~$9.2m a season cap hit in 2019-20 & 2020-21.  That's what Chicago is facing which is why he's a good buy out candidate in the off season.

 

Hossa's cap hit is $5.275m where did you get 9.2 from?



#16 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:10 AM

I give the edge to Marian but some of you make it sound like we are trying to compare Crosby to Jeff Finger. They A lot closer than some seem to think.


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#17 Euro_Twins

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

 

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers (9,2m, what?) and his cap hit is 5.275m and the contract comes off when he retires, but I'd sure be happy if Hossa is bought out (which probably won't happen) and we can sign him.

 

The contract will not come off if/when he retires, they changed it in the new cba, if he retired after 2016/2017 the blackhawks would have a $2.14m cap hit on their hands for 4 years, without actually having to pay anything



I give the edge to Marian but some of you make it sound like we are trying to compare Crosby to Jeff Finger. They A lot closer than some seem to think.

 

this.

 

He is great defensively, and even when he "floats" he still is creating space out there and drawing players to him. No player will be like "duh, franzen is floating today no one cover him..." despite what some people here think, even when he is floating he still is a very real threat to score.



#18 ogreslayer

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:27 AM

 

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers (9,2m, what?) and his cap hit is 5.275m and the contract comes off when he retires, but I'd sure be happy if Hossa is bought out (which probably won't happen) and we can sign him.

That's a big NOPE.  I suggest you read up on the new CBA.  There's a provision that's been affectionately called the Roberto Luongo Rule which is for penalizing teams that signed players to long term (7 years or more), back diving deals.  If a player retires before the term of the contact is up, the cap benefit (the excess of salary over actual cap hit in years it was greater) is counted against the cap equaly over the remaining years of the contract if the player retires or jumps to a different league before the contract is up.  In Hossa's case, the Blackhawks benefit is only realizing a cap hit of $5.275m a year for the first 7 years of the contract while paying Hossa $7.9m in actual salary.  That means if Hossa retires before the end of the 2020-21 season when he's 42 years old, the Blackhawks have $18.375m in cap hit they have to take in equal measure over the remaining years of the contract.  If it's 2 seasons, that a cap hit of ~$9.2m. 

 

And yes, the same rule applies to Mule, Hank, & Kronner who have cap benefits of $8.3m, $12.9m, & $4.5m respectively.  Where it's a little easier to swallow in the Wings' case is that none of them are signed through the age of 42 though.

 

Really good tool if you don't want to run the numbers manually: http://www.capgeek.c...layer_submit=on


Edited by ogreslayer, 14 May 2013 - 10:30 AM.


#19 Buppy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:35 AM

 

Amen!

 

That season, not only was Holland debating which one to keep, he also was holding $3.5M aside for Hudler to decide what he wanted to do.  OF course we all know Hudler turned down the $3.5M offer and ran off to Russia only to get awarded a lessor contract of $2.8M.  We also lost Sammy to Vancouver for $2.5M per season. Then they had to sign Bertuzzi and J. Willy later that summer to try to make up for losing both Hossa and Hudler.  Bertuzzi an Williams both signed for $1.5M for one season so technically they could have signed Franzen for his $3.9M cap hit and instead of holding out $3.5M for Hudler and giving Bertuzzi and Williams $1.5M, they could have had Hossa for his $5.2M hit...

 

So, Franzen and Hossa would have cost $10.1M combined...

 

Hudler (offer) Franzen. Betuzzi, Williams cost us $10.4 and probably another Cup.

 

The only thing I am not sure of is whether or not Bert and Willy were signed using Hudler's money after he bolted or not...if that were the case then no, we could not have had both Franzen and Hossa. We just didn't have the Cap space...I know Holland always wanted Bertuzzi back so I think he was going to sign him anyway.  But looking back in the archives at capgeek, the Wings had $0 available in cap space that year so, I do think that Bert and Willy were signed using Hudler's offer.

 

Too bad too, could you imagine this team with BOTH Hossa and Franzen still on it? As a matter of fact, that year the Wings finished with 112 points they were 3rd overall in points and Franzen had a career year with 34 goals among 59 points and Hossa had 40 goals among 71 points. Would have been great to keep both! Damn you Uncle Gary!!!!

 

Of course if a couple of other happened, Maltby retired early, we didn't sign Brad May, maybe, just maybe it could have happened...the World May Never Know©!

You should be sure, seeing as you've been told several times. We were over the cap for the entire 2009-10 season, using the LTIR excemption. Fitting even the extra $1.3 for Hossa instead of Franzen would have been difficult. Keeping both would have required something like not signing Bert or Willy and somehow losing Cleary and Draper. Then you could afford Hossa and fill the remaining spots with players near league minimum. Plus then we'd have three potential problem contracts in later years.



#20 StormJH1

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:00 AM

"The ever on going debate Hossa or Franzen, Franzen or Hossa, which one should we have kept?"

 

I HATE this question.  I hear it all the time on LGW, as if it was some clear A vs. B choice.  Nobody ever says "Why did we keep Zetterberg or Kronwall instead of Hossa", even though those guys have more comparable contracts - they only want to compare the two LH-shooting Euro power forwards.

 

Here is why I lose ZERO sleep over the Hossa vs. Franzen thing:

 

  • Hossa was a known mercenary from the day we signed him.  He was a mercenary for Pittsburgh, and he was a stopgap solution for us.  If both sides had been so committed to keeping Hossa here long term, he would've gotten more than the glorified "Alex Semin" one-year deal that he got in July 2008 from us (1 year, $7.45 mil, IIRC)
  • Franzen and Hossa were roughly the same age (both born in 1979) and have similarities in their game, so spending $10 mil + on the same type of player would have been superfluous when we needed to sign goaltending and defense at the time.
  • At the end of 2009, Franzen's reputation was as a clutch playoff performer, whereas Hossa had a disappointing playoff performance, which soured the fanbase on him.  (The same fanbase, btw, ignores the fact that Datsyuk scored all of 1 goal in the '09 Playoffs on a bad foot, and celebrates Lidstrom's toughness for his "groin" injury, while ignoring played all 23 games with a destroyed shoulder)
  • Franzen's contract was FAR more favorable heading into an uncertain CBA situation.  Not only is the cap hit about $1.3 million less, but it's a year shorter, and notably less egregious in terms of circumventing the CBA with "backdiver" provisions, which was a growing concern of the NHL at that time, as they cracked down on the Kovalchuk deal
  • While both are "power forwards" (and Hossa's defensive game is admittedly better), Franzen seemed the more likely of the two to assume the role of "guy who stands in front of the net, screens goalies, and picks up garbage goals.  Holmstrom was on his way out, and the Wings really hadn't been absent a player of that type dating back to Ciccarelli in the mid-90's.  Hossa is a better overall player, but (particularly in the '09 Playoffs), he plays more of a finesse game and stays on the perimeter a bit.
  • Amnesty buyout.  This whole conversation basically became moot anyway in the 2013 CBA.  If Franzen's contract is so bad, they can just buy it out, rather than keeping it until 2020.  If they don't do that, and elect to keep him despite the lower salary cap and other changes in the CBA, that tells you that they probably still view it as a pretty good contract.
  • The Hossa signing only "worked" for Chicago because they had to bend and twist the 2005 CBA in every way possible.  It was perceived at the time that it might cost them one of their other core players down the road, like Duncan Keith.  What they did instead was bury Huet in the minors (which you can no longer do) and thin out all their role players, which led to early exits in 2011 and 2012.  They have since rebuilt those lower lines, so the Hossa experiment has "worked", but it's not clear that it also would have "worked" for us.

Edited by StormJH1, 14 May 2013 - 11:04 AM.






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