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unsaddleddonald

So the consensus on Shanny's #14 is a no?

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What is to stop Chris Chelios from wearing a 5 jersey in a beer league and thus no longer allowing the WIngs to retire it?

You argument is as valid as mine above, neither of them are in the realm of possible. (if you think about Lids you will realize there is no way he is coming back, let alone to another team)

The very thing that made Lids a lifelong Wing is the same thing that would prevent him from playing one season in TB.

That is what you are missing, Lids could have gone to Boston to play with Chara (Both talked about wanting to play together) probably got more money with any team than he did with the Wings.

BUT...

Like Yzerman before him, Lids embodied what it means to be a Red Wing, and that includes taking less personally to achieve more as a team.

Some people just have a profound love for the game, and remember who took the chance and got them to where they were. Not knocking other players, everyones situations are different, but when a team spends a lot of time and money developing you into a star, that should definitely play a big role in what you sign for and who you sign with. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, lidstrom, could have all made more money elsewhere, but they were loyal and not greedy. That is why they led our team to multiple Stanley cups (Zetterberg only one) guys like Sammy, huds, flip, feds, and others obviously decided what was most important to them, money.

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The very thing that made Lids a lifelong Wing is the same thing that would prevent him from playing one season in TB.

That is what you are missing, Lids could have gone to Boston to play with Chara (Both talked about wanting to play together) probably got more money with any team than he did with the Wings.

BUT...

Like Yzerman before him, Lids embodied what it means to be a Red Wing, and that includes taking less personally to achieve more as a team.

Each one of your statements is true individually, and they add to the qualifications for a guy having his # retired. But to extrapolate each of those into a rule that ALL future nominees must follow like checklist? Sorry, no. Jarome Iginla should have his number retired in Calgary, and he'll have played on at least 2 other teams hopping around looking for a contender. I really don't fault him for it either, and neither do most Calgary fans.

Eras are different, business differs by era, and every player's career is different. What if the Wings had botched the '89 draft and didn't end up with Lidstrom or Fedorov. Maybe the Wings make a few first rounds, get bounced, and are back out of the playoffs. Maybe some of those veteran players we later acquire don't want to play for the Dead Wings. You can tell me, with full certainty, that a mid-30's Steve Yzerman who never won anything here, NEVER would have left because he just loved Detroit so much? I don't think anyone can know that. Yzerman deserves the praise he gets, but he wasn't the only one determining his situation. And the Red Wings organziation, with the help of almost a dozen other Hall of Fame players here and there helped to make that situation pretty darn nice.

Plus, as has been mentioned, Howe, Sawchuk and other retired numbers didn't play their whole careers as Wings.

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Each one of your statements is true individually, and they add to the qualifications for a guy having his # retired. But to extrapolate each of those into a rule that ALL future nominees must follow like checklist? Sorry, no. Jarome Iginla should have his number retired in Calgary, and he'll have played on at least 2 other teams hopping around looking for a contender. I really don't fault him for it either, and neither do most Calgary fans.

Eras are different, business differs by era, and every player's career is different. What if the Wings had botched the '89 draft and didn't end up with Lidstrom or Fedorov. Maybe the Wings make a few first rounds, get bounced, and are back out of the playoffs. Maybe some of those veteran players we later acquire don't want to play for the Dead Wings. You can tell me, with full certainty, that a mid-30's Steve Yzerman who never won anything here, NEVER would have left because he just loved Detroit so much? I don't think anyone can know that. Yzerman deserves the praise he gets, but he wasn't the only one determining his situation. And the Red Wings organziation, with the help of almost a dozen other Hall of Fame players here and there helped to make that situation pretty darn nice.

Plus, as has been mentioned, Howe, Sawchuk and other retired numbers didn't play their whole careers as Wings.

Here we go:

1. I never said it would be for all teams, it is just the way it is done in Det. So your Iginla comparison is a moot point, much like saying because COL retired Ray Bourque's number Det should retire Shanny's.

But to play along:

IF Iginla was drafted by the Wings and left at the end of his career, maybe his number gets up there like Howe, however if Iginla was on the Wings, and as loyal to them as he was to Calgary. he more than likely wins at least one cup and due to the org doing what they did for him, probably never leaves.

But the difference between them and the reason your comparison makes no sense is Shanny played for other teams both before and after the Wings, Iginla was drafted and only played for Calgary until the twilight of his career, never asking to be traded or complaining until they rebuilt yet again around him.

2. What people tend to forget about the different era's is the different owners. Many players left Detroit due to ownership being complete A-holes. I suggest reading "What it means to be a Red Wing". And you will realize many of those guys you mentioned above left due to the Norris family being complete and utter ****** Canoes!

If you do not have an understanding of how the Norris family ruled this organization you really should not comment on players leaving during that era and getting their #s retired.

3. You can speculate about what would have or would not have happened if Yzerman leaves or the Wings botch the draft, that does not change the fact that in the Illitch era in order to get your # retired you need to be the embodiment of what it means to be Red Wing.

If Yzerman leaves in his mid thirties with no cup, his number does not end up in the rafters, not saying he doesn't still go into the HOF, but he doesn't end up as THE Captain, and 19 is not in the rafters. Again though your argument is moot because Yzerman won a cup in his early 30's.

But the reverse is true as well, if Lids and Yzerman don't take pay cuts and don't make the sacrifices they made the Organization is not what it is.

That is what puts Yzerman and Lids in the rafters and guys like Ozzie, Draper, and Shanny will always be looking up at the rafters.

Edit: BTW; this is not my opinion on how # retirements should or will go after the Illitch family hands over the reigns, but is just my take on how they do it currently and why players in the past that may have played on other teams are in the rafters!

Edited by Opie

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Guest The Axe   
Guest The Axe

Shanahan is not an iconic player in Detroit, although he was instrumental in the Cup runs he was here for. The players with their numbers retired are icons.That's the difference.

Agreed. Well said.

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The proof is in the pudding, as they say. I do agree that they'd probably still gift a jersey retirement to a player who had a season or two elsewhere. That said, Shanahan played less than half 0of his career with the Red Wings, so your point doesn't have much validity here.

But I agree that Shanahan doesn't deserve to have his number retired - primarily because he didn't play long enough in Detroit! And if you're allowed to play a season or two elsewhere, then you're not a lifetime wing. Which was my original point......

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

But I agree that Shanahan doesn't deserve to have his number retired - primarily because he didn't play long enough in Detroit! And if you're allowed to play a season or two elsewhere, then you're not a lifetime wing. Which was my original point......

Thus far, the only two modern-era Wings to receive that honor played only for the Red Wings. As such, your original point does not necessarily have any merit.

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Thus far, the only two modern-era Wings to receive that honor played only for the Red Wings. As such, your original point does not necessarily have any merit.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it is without validity or merit.

His first point was that there are retired jerseys of Wings players who played on other teams. He's correct. If you restrict it to modern era then as you pointed out the two examples in Lidstrom and Yzerman played their entire career in Detroit.

As far as I know though, there is not any official or even unofficial standard or one that's been spoken of by the organization. The two last players worthy of jersey retirement played their entire career in Detroit. That doesn't make it a rule.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it is without validity or merit.

His first point was that there are retired jerseys of Wings players who played on other teams. He's correct. If you restrict it to modern era then as you pointed out the two examples in Lidstrom and Yzerman played their entire career in Detroit.

As far as I know though, there is not any official or even unofficial standard or one that's been spoken of by the organization. The two last players worthy of jersey retirement played their entire career in Detroit. That doesn't make it a rule.

This admonishment could have been avoided had you noted my inclusion of the word "necessarily."

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Guest Playmaker   
Guest Playmaker

Shanny is the perfect example of why the Wings need a "Ring of Honor" in the new arena. Gives the Wings a way to honor guys like Shanny, Homer, etc, who certainly deserve great recognition, but don't quite meet the standard set by Stevie and Nick.

Meh. Everyone doesn't have to be honored and rewarded or recognized. This isn't Kindergarten. Everyone doesn't need a trophy. Then there's going to be arguments about who deserves and doesn't deserve to be in the "Ring of Honor". Agree with the sentiment that if it's up for debate, then the jersey stays out of the rafters.

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Meh. Everyone doesn't have to be honored and rewarded or recognized. This isn't Kindergarten. Everyone doesn't need a trophy. Then there's going to be arguments about who deserves and doesn't deserve to be in the "Ring of Honor". Agree with the sentiment that if it's up for debate, then the jersey stays out of the rafters.

His salary and a pat on the back should be good enough. The Stanley cups he won were just a little icing on the cake for him

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Hate to say this yet again, but using this criteria, #16 played his entire career here, was outstanding, feared, won one cup and the motivation for a second. He deserves it. Shanahan does not, sorry. ,

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Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it is without validity or merit.

His first point was that there are retired jerseys of Wings players who played on other teams. He's correct. If you restrict it to modern era then as you pointed out the two examples in Lidstrom and Yzerman played their entire career in Detroit.

As far as I know though, there is not any official or even unofficial standard or one that's been spoken of by the organization. The two last players worthy of jersey retirement played their entire career in Detroit. That doesn't make it a rule.

Thankyou.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Hate to say this yet again, but using this criteria, #16 played his entire career here, was outstanding, feared, won one cup and the motivation for a second. He deserves it. Shanahan does not, sorry. ,

A long, illustrious career is another criterion. Sadly, Konstantinov's accident prevented him from achieving that. One cannot known what might have happened had his career not been prematurely ended; but as things stand, he does not meet the criteria.

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A long, illustrious career is another criterion. Sadly, Konstantinov's accident prevented him from achieving that. One cannot known what might have happened had his career not been prematurely ended; but as things stand, he does not meet the criteria.

He deserves his number retired. End of story

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Konstantinov doesn't deserve to have his number retired. It's been taken out of circulation (don't know for how much longer), but that's about it.

He was a good player, but those other names are elite players. What could have been is a different story.

Norm Ullman had a better career as a Wing than Konstantinov or Shanahan. His number isn't up there. How can you put those guys up before him?

Edited by GMRwings1983

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This admonishment could have been avoided had you noted my inclusion of the word "necessarily."

No, the admonishment could have been avoided if you could manage to disagree with someone without going the extra mile to say their argument has no value or merit.

It's really all opinions here. If you disagree, disagree. But to repeatedly state something someone says has no value or merit is basically an insult.

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Guest The Axe   
Guest The Axe

No, the admonishment could have been avoided if you could manage to disagree with someone without going the extra mile to say their argument has no value or merit.

It's really all opinions here. If you disagree, disagree. But to repeatedly state something someone says has no value or merit is basically an insult.

Shanny's jersey will not be retired becauae his body of work with the Red Wings isnt the vast majority of his body of work. If he had played 15-16 seasons with us and only 2-3 with NJ/St. Louis, then I think the argument would be a lot stronger.

Edited by haroldsnepsts
to stay on topic

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Are you playing with me?

Nope, Konstantinov Played his whole career here, and Vastly contributed to a stanley cup before his career was ended by stupidity, was a very large source of encouragement for them to win a second, and still comes and visits regularly and motivates players. If you tell me someone else should wear his number, then you really shouldn't be a wings fan.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Nope, Konstantinov Played his whole career here, and Vastly contributed to a stanley cup before his career was ended by stupidity, was a very large source of encouragement for them to win a second, and still comes and visits regularly and motivates players. If you tell me someone else should wear his number, then you really shouldn't be a wings fan.

It's not uncommon for teams to keep numbers out of circulation without retiring them. Having one's number removed from circulation is a sign of respect, whereas having one's number retired is a tremendous accolade. Konstantinov earned the former but not the latter.

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It's not uncommon for teams to keep numbers out of circulation without retiring them. Having one's number removed from circulation is a sign of respect, whereas having one's number retired is a tremendous accolade. Konstantinov earned the former but not the latter.

Agree to disagree

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Guest The Axe   
Guest The Axe

Agree to disagree

I agree. Unspoken out of circulation jerseys seems to be a Wings thing.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Agree to disagree

I'll put it another way: Konstantinov played some very good seasons with the Wings and was an important piece of the 1997 Cup run, but having had his career ended in a tragic accident does not entitle him to the honor in question. It is entirely possible, and perhaps probable, that he'd not have had his jersey retired even had the injury not happened and had he gone on to finish his career with the Red Wings. As is evident, this honor is given only to a very few even amongst those players who do play an entire, successful career with the organization.

On a related note, I think that the manner in which Konstantinov's career ended has led to his accomplishments and value as a player being overstated by many Red Wings fans. For example, calling his contribution to the 1997 Cup win "vast" is an exaggeration; while he played an important top-four role on the defense, his numbers on offense were mediocre, and Lidstrom and Murphy did the lion's share of the important offensive and defensive legwork. He was a very good defenseman, but not a hockey god in his time; and unfortunately, we were deprived by a drunk limo driver of the opportunity to see the rest of his career.

Edited by Crymson

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Im new here but my opinion is, and honestly I only read about half this post before writing this so if i missed a post, i'm sorry. But people keep saying its reserved for legends, and if thats the case really only yzerman howe and lids should be up there, delvecchio, abel, lindsay, sawchuck all should be taken down. were they great hockey players? yes 100% but so were feds, shhanny, ozzy, hull, cheli, and number of other guys. and yes i know most of them didn't play theyre whole career in DET but they did play great there. and if you look at what what they did as the production line with howe, sure they were great but so were shanny and feds with yzerman... I just dont understand it...honestly i think if youre going to lock up detroit legends, leave those guys, retire shanny, feds, ozzy, holmer, the grind line, probie, and then Dats, and Z need to be in the running also.. to think that they have no shot in an era where scoring on a goalie is harder than beating the guy who dives around and acutally plays the position as well as the forwards is insane, nobody is going to put up Gretzky numbers anymore, its not going to happen. as far as legends for the the winged wheel, ozzy, holmer, shanny, feds, pav, hank, should all be up there. obv wait for pav and Z to retire but the point is the same

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