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Would you trade Jimmy for a top pairing dman?


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#1 wingedominance13

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:52 AM

If there is something similar feel free to move, I looked around and only found the howard vs. miller thread.

 

 

So with the way Mrazek has played do you think it would be worth while to send Jimmy and his cap hit plus prospects and a dman to another team for a legit top pairing defender?

 

Here's my thoughts.

 

I've never been high on the idea that you need stellar goaltending to win. I think the idea that you have a solid, solid d corp and above average goaltending and you will have a better team is true. I have nothing against Jimmy and think he is a top ten goalie in this league, but I would rather have a top 10 defender then a top 10 goalie. I think its ideal to spend less than 3 mil a year on a goalie and save the money for the D.

 

 

 

However, until we get healthy there is no point selling anyone because we won't make a cup run if we don't have more pieces back. 



#2 Opie

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:07 PM

I came in here loaded for Bear to trash this thread.

Unfortunately your post was well thought out and no bashing from me will happen!

 

While I do agree I would rather have a top 10 D-man than top 10 goalie, Howard was the reason this team went any where last season. (Well Hank turning it on at the end helped a lot too)

 

He was rock solid in the post season giving up a few bad goals, but saving the team's collective bacon more often than giving up a softie.

 

For me it would have to be a legitimate top 10 D-man, but none of them are really available, Weber, Doughty, Suter, Pietrangelo (I was hoping his issues in STL this year and the Wings being in the East would have facilitated the wings poaching him), even if you wanted to go for a more offensive d-man like  Subban or Karlsson, it will take Howard and a lot more.

 

I think the offseason is really the only time you can get a fair deal for a D-man, catch them in contract dispute or wanting to play for a contender. Mid season everyone remembers how important a Defensive Stud is, and no one wants to part with them.

 

In the Offseason everyone is talking about forwards.

 

I really hoped the Wings would have swung something like Mule for Pietrangelo. It would have been a complete fleecing by the Wings, because to me he is one of the top D-men in the league.

 

I guess my point to all of this, if your netminder is not in the top 5, he just isn't going to get you a lot. Look at the Schneider to NJ deal, 9th overall pick, no roster player, no elite prospect.

Just a rubber bullet and a shot in the dark. Don't get me wrong a top 10 pick is better than 25th, but still that is not an elite player they got back.


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#3 frankgrimes

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:11 PM

Well.....if your D has guys like Pietrangelo, Seabrook, Keith, Karlson, Subban (both for the O side) than yes you don't need a stellar goaltender. But with our current group I'm very happy to have Howard and especially the Monster for such a cheap caphit. If St. Louis pulls of the Miller trade watch out, stellar goaltendewr + stellar goaltender.

 

Another thing to keep in mind:

if your D + goaltendending isn't stellar your offense needs to be top notch (we're talking P. Kane, Malkin, Crosbylike) here and even then, they hardly can pull it of in the playoffs.

 

the current state of this team is as follows: nothing is stellar goaltending so far has been the best thing thanks to the monster. I really hope, Howard can find his form again, because this team will need a solid goaltending if they want to make the playoffs.


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#4 kipwinger

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:19 PM

Well I think the values are off.  In your post you said you'd rather have a top ten d-man than a top ten goalie, which I agree with.  Problem is, Jimmy Howard won't get you a top ten d-man.  He'd likely get you a top pair guy, but there are lots of top pair guys who aren't top ten.  If all you're getting is a top pair guy (and we've already got two) then why trade someone as important as Howie when you could trade a less important piece and get a second pair guy (which is exactly where any new addition will be playing anyway) and not lose your starting goalie?

 

Basically, Jimmy will get you a good d-man, but not a great one.  And good defensemen can be had for a lot less than Jimmy Howard. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#5 VM1138

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:22 PM

Howard, a pick, and a prospect could theoretically net us a top defender and a good defender, respectively.  But like someone said, none of the top defensemen are on the market, and swapping out one player won't make our defense magically better, so it'd have to be a multi-player deal.


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#6 frankgrimes

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:24 PM

Howard, a pick, and a prospect could theoretically net us a top defender and a good defender, respectively.  But like someone said, none of the top defensemen are on the market, and swapping out one player won't make our defense magically better, so it'd have to be a multi-player deal.

 

thanks to Mr. I don't use offersheets I mean he just could have called the Blues bluff and pushed harder to Pietrangelo.


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#7 ogreslayer

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:30 PM

I still think the one to explore & the one who might be more readily available if the price is right is Weber given Nashville's status as an internal cap team.  I'm pretty sure that I saw some rumors of Kenny taking to Poile about a possible Weber trade prior to him signing the offer sheet from the Flyers but the price was too high since it would have still be intra-division at the time.

 

I do think that the Wings have the organizational depth built up now that if Kenny had the go-ahead to blow them away with an offer, it could happen.  Unless Rinne winds up being a shell of himself when he comes back or is just completely done because of his hip issues, I don't see Jimmy being a piece in that trade though.  If Rinne does come back in form & a goalie were included in talks between the teams, I would think the Preds would want younger & cheaper i.e. Mrazek.  I also think it would take at least one NHL quality forward (either Nyquist or Tatar), a high level D prospect, & picks to make it happen so ultimately, no I don't think it will. 



#8 dragonballgtz

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

The days of spending only $3M on your #1 goalie are over. Even if you go with a dual goalies, I don't think goalies that play significant time will take anything less than $4M. You can thank King Henrik and company for that.

 

Now would I trade Jimmy, sure. I think Mrazek will be better than Jimmy so I have no issue moving him. But most top D guys are already signed to long term contracts.



#9 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:53 PM

I personally think the Wings have a couple elite Dmen coming up in Sproul and Ouellet and Marchenko will be very good as well, so I don't want to trade Jimmy for a top Dman unless one of our Dmen goes with the trade.  Something like Howard and Kindl for Pietrangelo, but I'm not sure that any teams that have a Dman like him, Weber, Karlsson, Suter etc that also have solid goaltending are going to want Howard and whatever else we have to offer.  So I go back to my last part where I'd like to see Sproul and Ouellet in place of Q next year and maybe unload Kindl to a team will crap D like Edmonton or Florida.


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#10 kipwinger

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:58 PM

I personally think the Wings have a couple elite Dmen coming up in Sproul and Ouellet and Marchenko will be very good as well, so I don't want to trade Jimmy for a top Dman unless one of our Dmen goes with the trade.  Something like Howard and Kindl for Pietrangelo, but I'm not sure that any teams that have a Dman like him, Weber, Karlsson, Suter etc that also have solid goaltending are going to want Howard and whatever else we have to offer.  So I go back to my last part where I'd like to see Sproul and Ouellet in place of Q next year and maybe unload Kindl to a team will crap D like Edmonton or Florida.

 

This is a good point, there really aren't that many teams looking for goaltending now.  Still think it's a better use of resources to target a second pairing guy to play with Dekeyser and keep Howard.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#11 Dabura

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:02 PM

I don't think we necessarily have to part with our all-star starting goalie in order to land a top defenseman. Everyone seems to believe we have absolutely no tradable assets...and yet, many of us then turn around and talk up our amazingly deep and promising prospect pool. Or express frustration with Smith, because he kinda sucks, but he's such a *young and promising puck-moving offensive defenseman with size and some snarl who should be a force to be reckoned with in a few years*, but he kinda sucks, so no one would want him anyway. Or say:

 

Fine, who do you think is remotely sexy and tradable on this team, outside of our core? NO WE CAN'T TRADE FRANZEN. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? HE'S WORTHLESS/ESSENTIAL. Who else? NO WE CAN'T TRADE NYQUIST OR TATAR OR ANDERSSON OR SHEAHAN. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THEY'RE OUR FUTURE. And what prospects of ours could you see any GM salivating over? NO WE CAN'T TRADE MRAZEK OR PULKKINEN OR JURCO OR JARNKROK OR ALMQVIST OR MARCHENKO OR OUELLET OR SPROUL OR BACKMAN OR MANTHA OR FERRARO OR CALLAHAN. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THEY'RE OUR FUTURE. Any other options? NO WE CAN'T TRADE OUR FIRST-ROUND PICK. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THAT'S OUR FUTURE. There, you see? Our hands are tied.

 

We almost had Edler not long ago, but Gillis wanted four pieces and Holland would only part with three. (*facepalm*) And that was before this season. Perhaps, with the season Edler's having, and with the Canucks' window just about closed, Gillis might be more willing to move him, and for a slightly smaller return than before. Edler would have to sign off on the trade, but I think he'd be ok with playing for this team.

 

And then there's free agency. Not that we should assume that we'll be able to simply buy a top defenseman (see: Suter, Ryan), especially with this whole stupid re-sign trend. (Test the waters, wimps!) But the cap *should* be going up, and we *should* be shedding a number of players. So, we *should* be extremely aggressive, provided we haven't traded for anyone.

 

*EDIT*: I'd like to add that we don't necessarily need a #1 or a #2 or maybe even a #3. Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser is a pretty good top three, and losing Quincey should be a case of addition by subtraction. I mean, like I've said elsewhere and more or less said here, I'd like us to aggressively pursue both an Edler and a Girardi, with a vengeance. Because it's the Cup. But we don't necessarily need a *top defenseman*.


Edited by Dabura, 13 January 2014 - 01:17 PM.

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#12 dirtydangles

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:03 PM

Jimmy for Bogosian? WPG needs goaltending we need top pairing RHDman. Can't really gauge value here.


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#13 kylee

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:05 PM

Trade Howard for a defenseman and you just fill one hole and create another, larger one.



#14 Nev

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:18 PM

 

thanks to Mr. I don't use offersheets I mean he just could have called the Blues bluff and pushed harder to Pietrangelo.

 

And given up a 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the next draft?  That's a pretty bold offer sheet...

 

 

Anyway, who is this top pair D-man?  I'd be a lot more willing to trade Jimmy for Keith or Weber than say Phaneuf


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#15 Dabura

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:20 PM

Trade Howard for a defenseman and you just fill one hole and create another, larger one.

 

(Playing devil's advocate:) I think the idea is Jimmy < Mrazek + new top-four defenseman.


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#16 kipwinger

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:25 PM

I don't think we necessarily have to part with our all-star starting goalie in order to land a top defenseman. Everyone seems to believe we have absolutely no tradable assets...and yet, many of us then turn around and talk up our amazingly deep and promising prospect pool. Or express frustration with Smith, because he kinda sucks, but he's such a *young and promising puck-moving offensive defenseman with size and some snarl who should be a force to be reckoned with in a few years*, but he kinda sucks, so no one would want him anyway. Or say:

 

 

We almost had Edler not long ago, but Gillis wanted four pieces and Holland would only part with three. (*facepalm*) And that was before this season. Perhaps, with the season Edler's having, and with the Canucks' window just about closed, Gillis might be more willing to move him, and for a slightly smaller return than before. Edler would have to sign off on the trade, but I think he'd be ok with playing for this team.

 

And then there's free agency. Not that we should assume that we'll be able to simply buy a top defenseman (see: Suter, Ryan), especially with this whole stupid re-sign trend. (Test the waters, wimps!) But the cap *should* be going up, and we *should* be shedding a number of players. So, we *should* be extremely aggressive, provided we haven't traded for anyone.

 

*EDIT*: I'd like to add that we don't necessarily need a #1 or a #2 or maybe even a #3. Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser is a pretty good top three, and losing Quincey should be a case of addition by subtraction. I mean, like I've said elsewhere and more or less said here, I'd like us to aggressively pursue both an Edler and a Girardi, with a vengeance. Because it's the Cup. But we don't necessarily need a *top defenseman*.

 

We've got plenty enough assets to make a meaningful trade, maybe two.  The thing is, to do that you've got to give something of value and in the past when LGW members say we've got nothing to trade it's because they don't want to give anything up.  It's akin to saying "We've got nothing to trade because I'd rather not trade our 1st, or Smith, or Nyquist, or Tatar, or any of our top prospects."

 

And it's perfectly true that if you exclude everything of value on our team then we've got nothing to trade.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#17 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:57 PM

Depends on the D-man and the role he plays. Jimmy for Subban or Karlsson. No thanks. We have enough defensemen like them. 

 

Jimmy for Weber/Doughty/Boychuk... yeah. I'll take that deal.


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#18 kipwinger

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:04 PM

Depends on the D-man and the role he plays. Jimmy for Subban or Karlsson. No thanks. We have enough defensemen like them. 

 

Jimmy for Weber/Doughty/Boychuk... yeah. I'll take that deal.

 

We have enough world class offensive defensemen?  Kindl and Smith?


Edited by kipwinger, 13 January 2014 - 02:05 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#19 Wings_Dynasty

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:14 PM

 

We have enough world class offensive defensemen?  Kindl and Smith?

I was thinking small and injury prone. But sure.

 

I want size and physicality. No thanks on Karlsson for sure and Subban is overrated. We already have Kronwall and Smith to be small and "offensive minded." I want DeK to run the PP in the future, Kindl to bring some more snarl (along with Smith if he is on the team) and Marchenko to be a big, skilled guy (kinda like Ericsson but better). We need a 6'4" 220lb+ guy back there smashing guys into the boards and clearing the crease. The only person who remotely fills that void on the current roster is Ericsson, and he is bad at it. 

 

Weber for size, skill, and physicality. Doughty for skill and aggression. Boychuk now that I think about it isn't a good fit, but McQuaid is. 


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#20 PumpkinEscobar

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:18 PM

Keep what you got and wait til the offseason because Howard isn't going anywhere





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