lomekian 201 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 The problem with that thinking though is that no team can ever expect to be fully healthy....if you are greater, but if you are not, you have to do your best. Pittsburgh had been playing for a awhile without 5 of their top 6 Dmen, missing Malkin, missing Neal, etc., etc. They have actually been dessimated, but kept on winning. They actually had to sign a player the other day to get someone else in the line up (he only had an AHL contract). They really are the exception to the rule, and they are starting from the position of having one of the best rosters in the NHL, and certainly with the best player, who remarkably has nt been one of the injured parties. As per my earlier post, lots of people compare the wings to them and Anaheim to show how injuries shouldn't be a factor. Both are teams where the role players have massively over-achieved and both have strong rosters on paper in the first place. Perhaps more useful is to see that every other team with similar game days lost through injury are doing worse than us this year, and its only Pittsburgh who have lost better players than us (or a large number of core players). Most teams have lost a couple of top 6 ers and a top 4 d-man and then the scrubs. Our scrubs seem to be made of tungsten compared to our top guys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 They really are the exception to the rule, and they are starting from the position of having one of the best rosters in the NHL, and certainly with the best player, who remarkably has nt been one of the injured parties. As per my earlier post, lots of people compare the wings to them and Anaheim to show how injuries shouldn't be a factor. Both are teams where the role players have massively over-achieved and both have strong rosters on paper in the first place. Perhaps more useful is to see that every other team with similar game days lost through injury are doing worse than us this year, and its only Pittsburgh who have lost better players than us (or a large number of core players). Most teams have lost a couple of top 6 ers and a top 4 d-man and then the scrubs. Our scrubs seem to be made of tungsten compared to our top guys I'm not sure if Pittsburgh would be the exception to the rule. Perhaps an exception to the extent that they have had so many injuries to so many top players and are running away with the east currently...HOWEVER, it would be the exception to not have any injuries. A lot of teams have injuries and manage to keep thing moving. Maybe not do quite as well, but keep things together (example...Tampa). Maybe the Wings have had more injuries than the norm though. My point is, they are hanging around 8-11 place, injuries are a factor for sure, but I'm not sure that would make the difference between 8-11 to 3 or 4. If the Wings were fully healthy and all other teams were fully healthy, I'm sure they'd make the playoffs, but I'm not sure they wouldn't have a battle to get there. Even with all the injuries....I do see them sqeeking in, but I'm not going to lie....getting a bit worried. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Firefighter4WingedWheel 12 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 The whole not having a fully healthy squad worries me. Especially with the olympics coming up. The Wings are one of the teams with the most players selected for the olympics. The games are long and grueling and take a toll on the players. I think that we get back players that are tired, and hurting. Those who were hurt prior to the games will come back in worse shape. This feels like the year we don't make the playoffs, but I know that Babcock will work his magic and the boys will get their stuff together and make that playoff push. I hope. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lomekian 201 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 I'm not sure if Pittsburgh would be the exception to the rule. Perhaps an exception to the extent that they have had so many injuries to so many top players and are running away with the east currently...HOWEVER, it would be the exception to not have any injuries. A lot of teams have injuries and manage to keep thing moving. Maybe not do quite as well, but keep things together (example...Tampa). Maybe the Wings have had more injuries than the norm though. My point is, they are hanging around 8-11 place, injuries are a factor for sure, but I'm not sure that would make the difference between 8-11 to 3 or 4. If the Wings were fully healthy and all other teams were fully healthy, I'm sure they'd make the playoffs, but I'm not sure they wouldn't have a battle to get there. Even with all the injuries....I do see them sqeeking in, but I'm not going to lie....getting a bit worried. But the exception that you have just said they are is the exception I said they were. The only difference is that when I checked the stats the wings are doing better than any team with comparable injuries not called Pittsburgh or Anaheim, and the wings injuries have been to far more important players than most of the other teams with comparable injury totals. As I also said, for all the doom and gloom and the struggle the team are in, the wings are 3 points off 5th with at least one game in hand over 5 of the six teams directly above them. Despite having a much worse injury record than those teams directly above them. The whole not having a fully healthy squad worries me. Especially with the olympics coming up. The Wings are one of the teams with the most players selected for the olympics. The games are long and grueling and take a toll on the players. I think that we get back players that are tired, and hurting. Those who were hurt prior to the games will come back in worse shape. This feels like the year we don't make the playoffs, but I know that Babcock will work his magic and the boys will get their stuff together and make that playoff push. I hope. Admit that this is a concern..as has been alluded too, much depends on the time before that. I think after the Olympics the combination of willpower and a relatively short stretch and hopefully a morale boost for some will help. As a brit with little interest in the international game from a personal emotional perspective, I just hope that all our players that go there give a good account of themselves and return motivated and confident.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 As I also said, for all the doom and gloom and the struggle the team are in, the wings are 3 points off 5th with at least one game in hand over 5 of the six teams directly above them. Despite having a much worse injury record than those teams directly above them. They are 3 points behind Philly and NY, but they are in the other division, picking up those 3 points wouldn't put them in 5th. They are 9 points behind 3rd in their division, which means they are fighting for wildcard if they don't make up those points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Pred 48 337 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 i believe missing the playoffs would be a blessing in disguise. It would make it impossable for Kenny to re-sign his aging UFA's, and actually justify it. We have had a look at some of our prospects and they have shown that they are capable of filling voids that will be made by letting the upcoming ufa's go. Only Alfie would be asked to re-sign in an ideal world, and we havent got anyone to replace him. Next year could be the start of a genuine youth movement, but we do need a vet to come in and replace Quincey and Alfredsson if he goes. In one way i would love Mantha to come straight in next year but i see him going to the Griffs for the start of the season at least. I have this vision of Pav centering the 3rd line with Mantha and Jurco as his wings. This depends on Weiss coming round and being the 2nd line C as he was signed to do. Tats and Gus as top 6 forwards with Z Mule Weiss and Alfie or his replacement. 4th line Abdelkader Helm Sheahan which leaves us Miller Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings! 179 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 Just wondering how awesome it would've been getting Jagr here. He is truly a leader. Weiss has been one of the worst signings ever and Alfredsson, though very good on the pp,hasn't played too much in a season where we need everyone to kinda give a bit more than usual. I know everyone is hurt but sometimes you wonder when they lose all these close, important games if the coach is reassuring these players how hungry they have to be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadgerBob 297 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 i believe missing the playoffs would be a blessing in disguise. It would make it impossable for Kenny to re-sign his aging UFA's, and actually justify it. We have had a look at some of our prospects and they have shown that they are capable of filling voids that will be made by letting the upcoming ufa's go. Only Alfie would be asked to re-sign in an ideal world, and we havent got anyone to replace him. Next year could be the start of a genuine youth movement, but we do need a vet to come in and replace Quincey and Alfredsson if he goes. In one way i would love Mantha to come straight in next year but i see him going to the Griffs for the start of the season at least. I have this vision of Pav centering the 3rd line with Mantha and Jurco as his wings. This depends on Weiss coming round and being the 2nd line C as he was signed to do. Tats and Gus as top 6 forwards with Z Mule Weiss and Alfie or his replacement. 4th line Abdelkader Helm Sheahan which leaves us Miller Pav on the 3rd line? No way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lomekian 201 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 They are 3 points behind Philly and NY, but they are in the other division, picking up those 3 points wouldn't put them in 5th. They are 9 points behind 3rd in their division, which means they are fighting for wildcard if they don't make up those points. True..but I have to confess I'm not looking any further than Wild Card here.... Just wondering how awesome it would've been getting Jagr here. He is truly a leader. Weiss has been one of the worst signings ever and Alfredsson, though very good on the pp,hasn't played too much in a season where we need everyone to kinda give a bit more than usual. I know everyone is hurt but sometimes you wonder when they lose all these close, important games if the coach is reassuring these players how hungry they have to be. I long thought the jilted smugness of Wings fans re Jagr was ill-founded. Sure money and personal achievements may be more of a motivator for him than others, but as he has shown, they seem to have motivated him just fine for a couple of decades! As for hunger, I don't think it applies to most of the roster. Problem is that there were already too many players not of the required standard even before injuries. Fact is too many just arent good enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWang 422 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) I recommend everyone check out The Production Line's (@TPLhockey) latest twitter post regarding red wing injuries among cup contenders the last 4 years. They put together a graph showing just how injury riddled the wings have been this year and in years past. The numbers seem to be quite a bit higher than BOS, LAK, CHI and even the NHL average. I really am starting to believe the clubs training staff and or practicing too much is killing any hopes of us competing with a full squad. Idk its worth a look because it really made me think. Also if anyone could just find said photo and post it in a response to my post would really help others see what I mean. Edited January 17, 2014 by RedWang Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 i believe missing the playoffs would be a blessing in disguise. It would make it impossable for Kenny to re-sign his aging UFA's, and actually justify it. We have had a look at some of our prospects and they have shown that they are capable of filling voids that will be made by letting the upcoming ufa's go. Only Alfie would be asked to re-sign in an ideal world, and we havent got anyone to replace him. Next year could be the start of a genuine youth movement, but we do need a vet to come in and replace Quincey and Alfredsson if he goes. In one way i would love Mantha to come straight in next year but i see him going to the Griffs for the start of the season at least. I have this vision of Pav centering the 3rd line with Mantha and Jurco as his wings. This depends on Weiss coming round and being the 2nd line C as he was signed to do. Tats and Gus as top 6 forwards with Z Mule Weiss and Alfie or his replacement. 4th line Abdelkader Helm Sheahan which leaves us Miller Yes, take minutes away from our best center, and faceoff player. That makes alot of sense.... Pittsburgh should move Crosby to the 3rd line as well to match up against Datsyuk when they play eachother.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Internet.Unknown 422 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 I want the playoff streak to continue. It would be icing on the already impressive Red Wings cake. That being said, if the Wings don't make the playoffs, burn the team down. Blow it up. No one without a letter on the front of his jersey should be safe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 I want the playoff streak to continue. It would be icing on the already impressive Red Wings cake. That being said, if the Wings don't make the playoffs, burn the team down. Blow it up. No one without a letter on the front of his jersey should be safe. Agreed. Out: Cleary Bert Sammy Eaves Miller Quincey Kindl In: Shehan Ouellett Jurco Glendenning Callahan Marchenko Vanek Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PumpkinEscobar 136 Report post Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) I'd prefer the Wings not sign anyone for significant money or term this offseason..rather wait Edited January 17, 2014 by PumpkinEscobar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Playmaker Report post Posted January 17, 2014 Don't see the Wings beating Boston or Pittsburgh in a 7 game series...healthy or not Nobody saw them competing with the Blackhawks last season either. But we managed to take them to OT in game 7. Didn't the Wings have to win their last 4 last season just to get in? Weren't there just as many injuries playing the little wimpy Western Conference? Trade Jimmy Howard? That No Movement Clause may put a damper on that. Most teams are at or near the salary cap. A majority of the roster has a NTC or NMC, so making trades isn't an easy proposition. I can't think of another team that has so many starters out of the lineup. If the Wings were relatively healthy and were in the same position, it'd be a bit more disconcerting. But as someone else mentioned, with the salary cap and lack of high draft picks over the past 2 decades, a decline was inevitable. It would be nice if they were Championship contenders every year, but no team is in any sport is. It's not to say that I've agreed with every move Holland has made, but the Wings have been so good for so long, the fans have become spoiled. I don't want to see it all end either, but its going to happen sooner or later. 1 wings87 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wings87 1,290 Report post Posted January 18, 2014 Nobody saw them competing with the Blackhawks last season either. But we managed to take them to OT in game 7. Didn't the Wings have to win their last 4 last season just to get in? Weren't there just as many injuries playing the little wimpy Western Conference? Trade Jimmy Howard? That No Movement Clause may put a damper on that. Most teams are at or near the salary cap. A majority of the roster has a NTC or NMC, so making trades isn't an easy proposition. I can't think of another team that has so many starters out of the lineup. If the Wings were relatively healthy and were in the same position, it'd be a bit more disconcerting. But as someone else mentioned, with the salary cap and lack of high draft picks over the past 2 decades, a decline was inevitable. It would be nice if they were Championship contenders every year, but no team is in any sport is. It's not to say that I've agreed with every move Holland has made, but the Wings have been so good for so long, the fans have become spoiled. I don't want to see it all end either, but its going to happen sooner or later. I agree, the playoffs are a crapshoot the most important thing is to get in, cause once you're there anything can happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted January 18, 2014 Don't see the Wings beating Boston or Pittsburgh in a 7 game series...healthy or not Nobody saw them competing with the Blackhawks last season either. But we managed to take them to OT in game 7. Didn't the Wings have to win their last 4 last season just to get in? Weren't there just as many injuries playing the little wimpy Western Conference? Trade Jimmy Howard? That No Movement Clause may put a damper on that. Most teams are at or near the salary cap. A majority of the roster has a NTC or NMC, so making trades isn't an easy proposition. I can't think of another team that has so many starters out of the lineup. If the Wings were relatively healthy and were in the same position, it'd be a bit more disconcerting. But as someone else mentioned, with the. I cap and lack of high draft picks over the past 2 decades, a de,cline ws inevitable. It would be nice if they were Championship contenders every year, but no team is in any sport is. It's not to say that I've agreed with every move Holland has made, but the Wings have been so good for so long, the fans have become spoiled. I don't want to see it all end either, but its going to happen sooner or later. I'm starting to think this series really gave people more importantly Holland a false impression on where this team is headed in the future but I'll bite. The Hawks simple underestimated the team and thought it would be easy. After they've found another gear the team was simply overmatched in a lot of areas. Like I said when the Wings were healthy and didn't score it was they need to find chemistry, new conference and all that stuff. It doesn't matter, if we as fans are giving them time or boot, other teams are winning so time to catch up is running out. The sad part is, watching this team is boring, they are pushed around way too easily, safe for Kronner from time to time no big hits or playing with an edge.. Also having Pasha or Z out should have given people a good idea on what's ahead, if Holland doesn't react. Maybe missing the playoffs would be the best thing longtermwise, get a better draftpick and start the rebuild in the McDavid year, not a bad year to start. With gems like Tatar, Nyquist and Danny already in place it shouldn't be as painful as other ones. So yeah fairly lengthy but I'm worried about the future and Holland has to share a ton of the blame for not using the wealth this franchise has, this team used to get a player if they wanted him! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hey man nice shot! 144 Report post Posted January 18, 2014 I'm starting to think this series really gave people more importantly Holland a false impression on where this team is headed in the future but I'll bite. The Hawks simple underestimated the team and thought it would be easy. After they've found another gear the team was simply overmatched in a lot of areas. Like I said when the Wings were healthy and didn't score it was they need to find chemistry, new conference and all that stuff. It doesn't matter, if we as fans are giving them time or boot, other teams are winning so time to catch up is running out. The sad part is, watching this team is boring, they are pushed around way too easily, safe for Kronner from time to time no big hits or playing with an edge.. Also having Pasha or Z out should have given people a good idea on what's ahead, if Holland doesn't react. Maybe missing the playoffs would be the best thing longtermwise, get a better draftpick and start the rebuild in the McDavid year, not a bad year to start. With gems like Tatar, Nyquist and Danny already in place it shouldn't be as painful as other ones. So yeah fairly lengthy but I'm worried about the future and Holland has to share a ton of the blame for not using the wealth this franchise has, this team used to get a player if they wanted h /agree Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Playmaker Report post Posted January 18, 2014 I'm starting to think this series really gave people more importantly Holland a false impression on where this team is headed in the future but I'll bite. The Hawks simple underestimated the team and thought it would be easy. After they've found another gear the team was simply overmatched in a lot of areas. Like I said when the Wings were healthy and didn't score it was they need to find chemistry, new conference and all that stuff. It doesn't matter, if we as fans are giving them time or boot, other teams are winning so time to catch up is running out. The sad part is, watching this team is boring, they are pushed around way too easily, safe for Kronner from time to time no big hits or playing with an edge.. Also having Pasha or Z out should have given people a good idea on what's ahead, if Holland doesn't react. Maybe missing the playoffs would be the best thing longtermwise, get a better draftpick and start the rebuild in the McDavid year, not a bad year to start. With gems like Tatar, Nyquist and Danny already in place it shouldn't be as painful as other ones. So yeah fairly lengthy but I'm worried about the future and Holland has to share a ton of the blame for not using the wealth this franchise has, this team used to get a player if they wanted him! This isn't 2002. The Wings got players they wanted because they paid the most. The salary cap took care of that. They stayed competitive after that due to their elite scouting in Europe, finding later round superstars like Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen. Then other teams caught on. The restrictions on free agency and the penalties put on teams who signed players to long contracts makes things even more difficult. Most of the teams that are now "elite" all went through extended periods of being non playoff teams and got high draft picks. Sometimes you can get lucky with a trade here or there, but for the most part, the core of the team has to be built through the draft. That's how Jimmy D built the Wings in the first place. I would love it if the Wings were Cup contenders every year, but that isn't going to happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) This isn't 2002. The Wings got players they wanted because they paid the most. The salary cap took care of that. They stayed competitive after that due to their elite scouting in Europe, finding later round superstars like Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen. Then other teams caught on. The restrictions on free agency and the penalties put on teams who signed players to long contracts makes things even more difficult. Most of the teams that are now "elite" all went through extended periods of being non playoff teams and got high draft picks. Sometimes you can get lucky with a trade here or there, but for the most part, the core of the team has to be built through the draft. That's how Jimmy D built the Wings in the first place. I would love it if the Wings were Cup contenders every year, but that isn't going to happen. See now we are on the same page Once a team is starting to fall behind, it's time to rebuild because the stupid CBA doesn't allow teams to use their own money. I'm not saying blow it all up but I'm obviously very concerned if they aren't going to start the rebuild next year, this team might be looking at a Calgary Flames like situations Personally I just don't see a point in barely making the playoffs and going out in the first or second round and not getting a better draft pick (thanks god we've lucked out with Mantha). Edited January 18, 2014 by frankgrimes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Playmaker Report post Posted January 18, 2014 I agree, I don't want to suck for a few decades either. I think Holland is trying to keep the ship afloat and rebuild on the fly. But I think its a lot easier said than done. The salary cap blows when you have an owner with an open check book. I really hate too the penalties that they instituted on these long term deals after the fact. I don't think the Wings are any where near being a cup favorite. But if the team were totally healthy and guys like Franzen and Alfie and Helm are playing well, I think the Wings could surprise some teams in the early rounds. But that's a big if. 1 haroldsnepsts reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Son of a Wing 1,644 Report post Posted January 18, 2014 See now we are on the same page Once a team is starting to fall behind, it's time to rebuild because the stupid CBA doesn't allow teams to use their own money. I'm not saying blow it all up but I'm obviously very concerned if they aren't going to start the rebuild next year, this team might be looking at a Calgary Flames like situations Personally I just don't see a point in barely making the playoffs and going out in the first or second round and not getting a better draft pick (thanks god we've lucked out with Mantha). So basically you don't see the point in making the playoffs unless your favorite to win?? 2 Hey man nice shot! and Hockeymom1960 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted January 18, 2014 Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi Franzen-Weiss-Alfredsson Tatar-Helm-Nyquist Miller-Andersson-Abdelkader Nyquist-Zetterberg-Abdelkader Tatar-Andersson-Bertuzzi Miller-Sheahan-Eaves Cleary-Glendening-Samuelsson The first group is what they were expecting to have on at least a semi-regular basis. That roster easily makes the playoffs. The second group is about what they've been forced to play with recently. That roster could compete for the top overall pick. That's why they've been losing. It's not because Tatar was scratched for 8 games early in the season. it's not because Cleary, Samuelsson, and Bertuzzi aren't pulling their weight. It's because virtually every forward who's any good at all, other than Nyquist and Tatar, have missed over 20% of the season. Miller Andersson, and Cleary are the only forwards who have played at least 90% of the possible games. I don't care if your coaching staff is Scotty Bowman, Toe Blake and Al Arbour, this roster isn't going to score enough to win consistently until they get some players back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Pred 48 337 Report post Posted January 19, 2014 actually it would make a lot of sense, if Weiss plays upto his 2nd line C role. Z can look after the 1st line giving us a potential scoring 3rd line that no other team could match up against without splitting up their lines. Pav would still be able to play on the PP. Pav is 36 this year and we need to make sure we look after him and not burn him out by overplay. Already this year he has been out more games than we are use to. Having him in full swing for 16-19 mins a game would be of more benefit to the Wings than losing him for 6-8 games a couple of times a year by overplaying him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted January 20, 2014 So basically you don't see the point in making the playoffs unless your favorite to win?? Did I say that ? It totally depends on the team, if you have a young, hungry team on the cusp of breaking out for sure making the playoffs is a tremendous step forward and at that point you can easily salvage a better draft pick. If you are an aging team, soon needing to replace one superstar things are a bit different, right now most of the vets on this team have at least won 1 stanley cup and the young players mostly have around 15 ! years left to win one, plenty of time here. Given we are right now the later I would say atm a better draft pick is more important than just making the playoffs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites