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toby91_ca

Ovechkin and ES

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LOL. Why would anyone want a 27 year old RW that scores 45+ goals per year and is good for 200 hits per year. blindness by some is funny. Praising backstrom over Ovie? really? I would take Ovie every day over backstrom. Not even close. Go do a google search for Backstrom struggling to score. There have been stories about it every year he has been in the league. Backstrom is -19 BTW, so it isn't an ovie thing. Washington has a terrible backend other than Carlson.

Now if one wants to ralk about how ovie is used, that is a worth while debate. he is told to find a good shooting spot and stay there. To be a force in the offensive zone. That is what he does.

Some of us are old enough remember when Stevie Y didn't play D either. He was told to score and did. it wasn't until Bowman
threatened to trade him that the captain learned to play D.

Edited by Richdg

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LOL. Why would anyone want a 27 year old RW that scores 45+ goals per year and is good for 200 hits per year. blindness by some is funny. Praising backstrom over Ovie? really? I would take Ovie every day over backstrom. Not even close. Go do a google search for Backstrom struggling to score. There have been stories about it every year he has been in the league. Backstrom is -19 BTW, so it isn't an ovie thing. Washington has a terrible backend other than Carlson.

Now if one wants to ralk about how ovie is used, that is a worth while debate. he is told to find a good shooting spot and stay there. To be a force in the offensive zone. That is what he does.

Some of us are old enough remember when Stevie Y didn't play D either. He was told to score and did. it wasn't until Bowman

threatened to trade him that the captain learned to play D.

Y is an all-time great OV is a guy that can put a team over the top but not the guy to put a team on his shoulders like guys Ala Crosby, Towed Y, Bergeron and our own Nyquist are able to do.

I would take Kopitar 100 out of 100 times over him same goes for Bergeron Callahan

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LOL. Why would anyone want a 27 year old RW that scores 45+ goals per year and is good for 200 hits per year. blindness by some is funny. Praising backstrom over Ovie? really? I would take Ovie every day over backstrom. Not even close. Go do a google search for Backstrom struggling to score. There have been stories about it every year he has been in the league. Backstrom is -19 BTW, so it isn't an ovie thing. Washington has a terrible backend other than Carlson.

Now if one wants to ralk about how ovie is used, that is a worth while debate. he is told to find a good shooting spot and stay there. To be a force in the offensive zone. That is what he does.

Some of us are old enough remember when Stevie Y didn't play D either. He was told to score and did. it wasn't until Bowman

threatened to trade him that the captain learned to play D.

This is what makes Datsyuk so special amongst Russian forwards, his ability to play both ends of the ice is second to none. It will take a special kind of Russian in the NHL to be Captain and lead his team to a Stanley Cup. Dats is really the only one that could do it, we saw his level of play at the Olympics on one leg, best player on the Russian bench.

Ovie is going to need to go through a transformation as you pointed out like Stevie Y did if he wants to get to the promised land.

wingedominance13 likes this

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Wasnt Bures tactics similar to Ovies? both were hanging around the blueline waiting for a pass?

After he went to play for Florida, yes, pretty much. They weren't a threat to make the playoffs, so Bure got his 50-60 goals a year, having nothing else to play for.

When he was in Vancouver in the beginning of his career, he was a bit more of a complete player. Not a Selke candidate even then, though :)

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Every team needs a high scoring floater. Ovechkin is a complementary player, not the guy to hoist the team on his shoulders.

I think you're taking it a little far here. Ovechkin has carried that team on his back into the playoffs many times in his career. While there he's averaging more than a point per game.

You're probably the only person in the history of hockey to call an 8 time all-star, three time league MVP, one time scoring leader, three time goal leader, and rookie of the year a "complimentary player".

Alex doesn't play defense, I get it. But to suggest he hasn't carried that team on his back for every second of the limited success they've had is silly. Particularly when he's never ever had a quality goaltender, defenseman, or coach.

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How many of those awards are heavily inflated by his scoring? He's a competitor for sure but I don't think I'd make him a captain.

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How many of those awards are heavily inflated by his scoring? He's a competitor for sure but I don't think I'd make him a captain.

But that's not what you said. You called him a complimentary player...and he's not. I'd agree that there are better players in the league, or guys that are better leaders or whatever. But to say he's a complimentary player is silly. He had four 100 points seasons while being the primary offensive threat on his team.

You're saying he's not "the guy" because he doesn't play defense...and he doesn't, I agree. But lots of guys don't play defense yet still get credit for being first rate players. Certainly nobody would call Kessel, Vanek, Kane, etc. complimentary players. But for whatever reason it's popular these days to downplay just how good Ovechkin is...even if he could be better.

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Ovechkin isn't a bum in fact he's an elite scorer, but that's all he is. He's the biggest diver in the NHL, he doesn't play defense, and let's face it he sometimes doesn't even play offense, but he's always a threat to score. And I can only dream of the kind of production he would have with Pav as his center.

The guy is 28 years old and it's time he got his act together. Somebody needs to grab him by the collar, pull him aside and tell him bluntly that his overall play is not acceptable for a player with his abilities. I just don't think Washington has that veteran player who commands respect, a guy that can get into Ovechkin's face and set him straight. Nor do the Caps apparently have a coach who has the balls to call him out.

Ovie's scoring will get him to the HOF, but there will always be a, what if, attached to his name.

Edited by wings87

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I've always viewed him as an alternate reality Fedorov. What if Feds hadn't been drafted by the Wings, hadn't played under Bowman, hadn't played alongside a slew of future Hall of Famers across a slew of very deep Wings teams funded by Mike Ilitch and his whatever-it-takes mandate? Would he have become an Alex Ovechkin? Or, to flip it around, What if Ovechkin had been drafted (or, more realistically, somehow acquired via trade) by the Wings? Would he be what he is?

Instead of a league worst -34 he would be +34 :D

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I understand that Ovie isn't a great defensive player. Most of your top goal scorers are not great defensive players. Did brett Hull even know where the defensive zone was? Shanny didn't play much d either, and we somehow managed to win 3 cups with him. On the other hand you have a great defensive c like datsyuk, but is he really a great scorer? No. Good yes, but not great.

Ovie has also changed postions 3 times now. When he first came into the NHL he was a LW. Then he moved to C, now he has been playing RW for the last 3 or 4 seasons. His best years to date were the 07/08 season through the 09/10 season. he had 112, 110, 109 points in those 3 years. Pretty damn good. Even then his +/- changed by 25 points per year.

What it really comes down to is, what does the coaching staff want from him. Do you want to take a 50 goal scorer and turn him into a 30 goal guy and improve his D? Tough one to answer. Most teams are looking for more O. Scoring in the NHL is down and trending further south.

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I have a lot of mixed feelings on the subject. On the one hand, I sometimes get frustrated that its expected that every single player has to be a defensive standout. On the other hand, its never wracking watching some of the young guys who don't have the defensive prowess.

It used to be that guys were either defensive forwards and penalty killers or scorers. I think Fedorov and Yzerman really changed the game in that respect in creating the "two way forward". I agree too that the culture of the Red Wings rewarded guys for being defensive minded and didn't pressure them to put up numbers.

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Playmaker, this is something that changes in the NHL every 10 years or so. Look at the RW's. We didn't truly become a possession team until the mid 2000's. Now we are starting to change again. Yes there were some guys that played a great 2 way game before, but that wasn't the majority of the guys on the team.

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I don't know what you're referring to as a "possession" team or how that refers to the forwards being defensive minded. What I'm referring to is "back in the day" guys like Guy Carboneau, Rick Meagher, Shawn Burr for the Wings, they were considered defensive forwards. That's why they have the Selke Trophy, because scorers didn't traditionally kill penalties or backcheck against the other teams top forwards. I don't recall it changing every few years. Since the days of Fedorov and Yzerman, most forwards are expected to play at least somewhat of a decent defensive game and sacrifice the scoring numbers to do so. I think that's why you don't see guys putting up points like they used to.

Edited by Playmaker
kipwinger likes this

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What it really comes down to is, what does the coaching staff want from him. Do you want to take a 50 goal scorer and turn him into a 30 goal guy and improve his D? Tough one to answer. Most teams are looking for more O. Scoring in the NHL is down and trending further south.

I know a lot of people have the view that x player sacrifices offense by playing better D, but I really think that is a myth.

Playing great D should give you more options on offsensive. Getting the puck back quicker gives you greater possession time. If you are not chipping in on D, your teams will spend more time in your own end, which is very tough to score from.

wingedominance13 likes this

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I know a lot of people have the view that x player sacrifices offense by playing better D, but I really think that is a myth.

Playing great D should give you more options on offsensive. Getting the puck back quicker gives you greater possession time. If you are not chipping in on D, your teams will spend more time in your own end, which is very tough to score from.

100% agree. If Ovi backchecked and threw his weight around in the D zone it would create more O zone time for his team. It might sacrifice a few breakaways but in general by playing harder D he will have more offensive zone time.

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Not necessarily. If the center is deep in his own zone tying up a guy in front of the net, it takes a lot more out of a guy than one who is floating at the red line looking for a breakaway.

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“Ovi quit on the play coming back,” Coach Adam Oates said. Whitney “forced [the play] down the ice and just goes to show you you’ve got to hustle the entire time, the whole entire time.”

It's not even about being a complete 2-way player. It's about just giving a damn...

Check out the video in the link on my previous post from the 24sec mark on. It's just a joke when your team is fighting for a playoff spot.

marcaractac likes this

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I'll say this about the whole "sacrificing offense for defense" thing. Nobody is asking Ovie to be a defensive stalwart. But Stamkos has shown that you can score a TON of goals and still at least try on defense. Is he a defensive stud? No. But he makes an effort. Ovie doesn't....

BUT, Ovie is hardly the only scorer in the league who doesn't really try on defense so it's a bit disingenuous to single him out without saying the same thing about a ton of other guys (past and present).

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I'll say this about the whole "sacrificing offense for defense" thing. Nobody is asking Ovie to be a defensive stalwart. But Stamkos has shown that you can score a TON of goals and still at least try on defense. Is he a defensive stud? No. But he makes an effort. Ovie doesn't....

BUT, Ovie is hardly the only scorer in the league who doesn't really try on defense so it's a bit disingenuous to single him out without saying the same thing about a ton of other guys (past and present).

The difference is that Stamkos is a centre and Ovechkin is not. I don't give Ovechkin a really hard time on lack of defense as not as much responsibility is placed on wingers. This is also why I always see centres as being more valuable and more important than wingers.

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I think Ovie is singled out because, you basically really have to suck defensively to lead the league in goals and lead in minus. Yeah, stats can be misleading, but in this case? It seems indicative of his play.

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