Shaman 713 Report post Posted June 19, 2014 So you're expecting Dats, Zetterberg, Sheahan to only play half the season again. Ericsson and Franzen will miss 30 games again. Nyquist won't play in 25 games again. Weiss will only play 26 games again. Cause all those things will have to happen again for us to be worse than the past year Or those players are less able to produce, and given the lackluster defense and jekyll and hyde nature of Howard they finish just on the outside of the playoff picture at the end of the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmyemeryhunter 2,747 Report post Posted June 19, 2014 I don't think you understood me at all. I know humor/sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet. Ha. I did not catch the sarcasm, and I had just read through around twenty pages of "Holland sucks, fire him. Babcock is a bad coach, Blahblahblahblah franzen, blahblahblah buyout" with a severely smaller number of decent posts. Hahaha. 1 e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wings4thecup06 504 Report post Posted June 19, 2014 Or those players are less able to produce, and given the lackluster defense and jekyll and hyde nature of Howard they finish just on the outside of the playoff picture at the end of the season. This really, isn't what I'd called being 'realistic' though. It's being negative and bringing a defeatist attitude when the draft, free agency and our roster for next season hasn't even formulated yet. If you're expecting the Wings to win the cup every year then you are setting yourself up for failure because it'll never happen. Yes all of us here want the Wings to do well, but surely being a realist would mean realising that the Wings won't win the cup every year?? I mean, winning one is hard to do, let alone two. You obviously disagree, but IMO this team is trending up. They're getting rid of excess baggage (aside from Clearly but that remains to be seen), are healthy, will most likely have their two best players back and ready to go (Z looked great in the two games he played against Boston, and there's no reason to suggest why a summer of rehab and conditioning shouldn't have him even better), we've got young guys coming up who are largely responsible for getting us in last season and have bright futures ahead, and we've got arguably our most exciting prospect for as long as I can remember (Mantha) turning pro and possibly challenging for a spot. So what's not to like? Rebuilding on the fly isn't exactly a painless process and we've seen that the last two years. But with the pieces we have, it definitely doesn't suggest we're going to suck. Too many people here I think are getting down on the Wings already even though the offseason really hasn't even started to get going yet. Am I the only one who's excited about the future of this team? 3 jimmyemeryhunter, krsmith17 and rick zombo reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted June 19, 2014 This really, isn't what I'd called being 'realistic' though. It's being negative and bringing a defeatist attitude when the draft, free agency and our roster for next season hasn't even formulated yet. If you're expecting the Wings to win the cup every year then you are setting yourself up for failure because it'll never happen. Yes all of us here want the Wings to do well, but surely being a realist would mean realising that the Wings won't win the cup every year?? I mean, winning one is hard to do, let alone two. You obviously disagree, but IMO this team is trending up. They're getting rid of excess baggage (aside from Clearly but that remains to be seen), are healthy, will most likely have their two best players back and ready to go (Z looked great in the two games he played against Boston, and there's no reason to suggest why a summer of rehab and conditioning shouldn't have him even better), we've got young guys coming up who are largely responsible for getting us in last season and have bright futures ahead, and we've got arguably our most exciting prospect for as long as I can remember (Mantha) turning pro and possibly challenging for a spot. So what's not to like? Rebuilding on the fly isn't exactly a painless process and we've seen that the last two years. But with the pieces we have, it definitely doesn't suggest we're going to suck. Too many people here I think are getting down on the Wings already even though the offseason really hasn't even started to get going yet. Am I the only one who's excited about the future of this team? Well first you strawmanned my position, I didn't say they had to be contenders every year, I said they had to be or they had to be making progress to that point. They have objectively regressed every year since 2008. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are both past their prime, the defense has been in steep decline, and Howard is Osgood 2.0, meaning he's as good as the team in front of him. You say we should wait for FA and the draft and etc. Look at the last 4 years as a guide, they do nothing in FA worth noting, nothing at the deadline, they retain older plugs and roleplayers while starting players like Nyquist and Jurco in the AHL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wings4thecup06 504 Report post Posted June 19, 2014 Well first you strawmanned my position, I didn't say they had to be contenders every year, I said they had to be or they had to be making progress to that point. They have objectively regressed every year since 2008. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are both past their prime, the defense has been in steep decline, and Howard is Osgood 2.0, meaning he's as good as the team in front of him. You say we should wait for FA and the draft and etc. Look at the last 4 years as a guide, they do nothing in FA worth noting, nothing at the deadline, they retain older plugs and roleplayers while starting players like Nyquist and Jurco in the AHL. While some of that may be true, there's a couple things right now that I think work to change that. 1. The emergence of several kids who carried us has (hopefully) shown KH that some of these guys can be slotted in and it's not all about veterans anymore 2. We've got a good amount of cap space for the first time in I can't remember 3. We've also got a gluttony of good, mid level prospects who we could potentially package to get something decent in return. While the recent history might suggest otherwise, I think KH will do something decent this offseason. 3 T.Low, krsmith17 and e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T.Low 1,011 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Ok...I'm officially ready for July 1, and beyond. 3 Wingsfan72, Hey man nice shot! and krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Was just watching Insider Trading on TSN. According to Pierre Lebrun, Joe Thornton has given no indications of what he wants to do, but confirms that Holland has called San Jose to see what it would take. I know for one, I've hated dumbo Joe in the past, but that'd all be in the past if we could land him (depending on price of course.)link to the story: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=455266 Edited June 20, 2014 by Detroit # 1 Fan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 A pass first player who is on the wrong side of 30? That's Ken Holland music! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Oh come on. Jumbo Joe is still a force. He's still got game and will for a few years. He'd be great to have. We still need finishers but how could you turn down Thornton? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,527 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Of course he'd be looking at centers. Our wingers are undersized and/or terrible and he's looking at centers. We've only got about 25 of them on the roster right now. Jesus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Especially if we lost some players due to trades we might end up needing an extra playmaker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DeGraa55 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Ya why get spezza when we can get Thornton LOL!!! I like joe but we need help now and the future not just now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,963 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 diving Joe? I am not sure how I'd feel...just for laughs someone put up that .gif with the light sabres... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,527 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 So, if we trade for Thornton does that mean Weiss goes to the wing? And if so, does that mean one of Franzen or Nyquist becomes the top line winger? And how does re-signing Alfie influence this? Is there actually a plan or are we just grasping at straws here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,963 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 call it....Helm, Smith, 1st for Joe. Holland then signs Boyle and Seto July 1st. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Of course he'd be looking at centers. Our wingers are undersized and/or terrible and he's looking at centers. We've only got about 25 of them on the roster right now. Jesus. We may not have so many after trading starts. Realistically we have Datsyuk, Weiss, Helm, Sheahan. Weiss can play wing and Helm may end up traded. Andersson just isn't good and can also be traded. A middle of Datsyuk, Thornton, Weiss/Helm and Sheahan doesn't make anyone else excited? That's powerful and Cup worthy. We could still use a new winger but if we upgrade the defense we may not need one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Certainly gives us something to talk about haha. I think a 2nd line of Nyquist-Thornton-Franzen would be great in theory, he's from St. Thomas so he'd essentially be coming home without having to go to Toronto and deal with that pressure cooker. By no means a done deal, but I'm intrigued. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,527 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 We may not have so many after trading starts. Realistically we have Datsyuk, Weiss, Helm, Sheahan. Weiss can play wing and Helm may end up traded. Andersson just isn't good and can also be traded. A middle of Datsyuk, Thornton, Weiss/Helm and Sheahan doesn't make anyone else excited? That's powerful and Cup worthy. We could still use a new winger but if we upgrade the defense we may not need one. I mean, I don't want to sound overly pessimistic because those are all good centers. But I was already excited at the thought of Dats, Weiss, Sheahan, Helm. But it doesn't make a bit of difference if their wingers have hammer hands (Abby) or weight 175 lbs. (Tatar, Nyquist) or are Franzen. We've already got good centers. I want wingers with size. I will admit that Joe would probably make Franzen a superstar overnight. And he'd be good for Mantha's development too. Really good. Mantha would score a zillion goals with Joe passing to him. 1 Wingsfan72 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Exactly. Holland may be thinking down the road a bit with this idea. Nyquist and Tatar are small, but Jurco isn't. He was the rawest talent last season, and I expect he will be much better this season. And keep in mind our passing in the playoffs sucked. Maybe Tatar and Nyquist would have scored had they not had to carry the puck in from their own blue line all the time alone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 I'll never like Thornton. Don't want his diving ass here. Go choke somewhere else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
e_prime 1,936 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) While some of that may be true, there's a couple things right now that I think work to change that. 1. The emergence of several kids who carried us has (hopefully) shown KH that some of these guys can be slotted in and it's not all about veterans anymore 2. We've got a good amount of cap space for the first time in I can't remember 3. We've also got a gluttony of good, mid level prospects who we could potentially package to get something decent in return. While the recent history might suggest otherwise, I think KH will do something decent this offseason. You're my boy!! Welcome aboard the U.S.S. Positivity. I'll be your Captain. We're currently sailing though some choppy waters over the next two weeks of our voyage. Please keep your life-preservers handy. Well first you strawmanned my position, I didn't say they had to be contenders every year, I said they had to be or they had to be making progress to that point. They have objectively regressed every year since 2008. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are both past their prime, the defense has been in steep decline, and Howard is Osgood 2.0, meaning he's as good as the team in front of him. You say we should wait for FA and the draft and etc. Look at the last 4 years as a guide, they do nothing in FA worth noting, nothing at the deadline, they retain older plugs and roleplayers while starting players like Nyquist and Jurco in the AHL. Ahhh... the good old strawman. He's a sight for sore eyes on these forums. He didn't strawman your position. He clearly broke down your position into A) You wanna win the cup every year... and he said that isn't very realistic. He then went on to say that in his opinion, B) he disagrees that the team is not taking steps towards that goal because he thinks the team is trending upwards not downwards. ...and then went on to give his opinion. He's also gone on to state your overall position very plainly. You're not as they say, "A glass half-full type of guy" ...and that's okay. Own it, FFS. It's not as if you're not making salient points, ShamAn*. You just have to understand that while everyone wants to win or contend for the Cup every year. Not everyone is going to be as down or as pessimistic about the future as you seem to be. ...and that's okay too. ...just stop pretending that you're not Debbie Downer. So, if we trade for Thornton does that mean Weiss goes to the wing? And if so, does that mean one of Franzen or Nyquist becomes the top line winger? And how does re-signing Alfie influence this? Is there actually a plan or are we just grasping at straws here? There might be a plan. Hell, maybe Holland finally has a plan A, B, and C. As for us, all of us here. Yeah. We're all grasping at straws. Desperately. Finally, and this goes for ALL OF YOU! Yes, we say we should wait for FA and the draft and etc. because well, YOU KIND OF HAVE TO! THAT'S THE WAY THE LEAGUE WORKS!!! ...or would you rather us throw fifth rounders at Dan Boyle for no good reason. EDIT: Sorry, Shaman. For a second I spelled your handle like you're a Scottish dance band from the nineties. Edited June 20, 2014 by e_prime 3 wings4thecup06, krsmith17 and wingsfan4795 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BottleOfSmoke 5,965 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 BOS you must be as drunk as i am right now, god i wish hockey would start again In all honesty, I didn't remember making that post until I checked my notifications. 1 number9 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,527 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 You're my boy!! Welcome aboard the U.S.S. Positivity. I'll be your Captain. We're currently sailing though some choppy waters over the next two weeks of our voyage. Please keep your life-preservers handy. Ahhh... the good old strawman. He's a sight for sore eyes on these forums. He didn't strawman your position. He clearly broke down your position into A) You wanna win the cup every year... and he said that isn't very realistic. He then went on to say that in his opinion, B) he disagrees that the team is not taking steps towards that goal because he thinks the team is trending upwards not downwards. ...and then went on to give his opinion. He's also gone on to state your overall position very plainly. You're not as they say, "A glass half-full type of guy" ...and that's okay. Own it, FFS. It's not as if you're not making salient points, Shamen. You just have to understand that while everyone wants to win or contend for the Cup every year. Not everyone is going to be as down or as pessimistic about the future as you seem to be. ...and that's okay too. ...just stop pretending that you're not Debbie Downer. There might be a plan. Hell, maybe Holland finally has a plan A, B, and C. As for us, all of us here. Yeah. We're all grasping at straws. Desperately. Finally, and this goes for ALL OF YOU! Yes, we say we should wait for FA and the draft and etc. because well, YOU KIND OF HAVE TO! THAT'S THE WAY THE LEAGUE WORKS!!! ...or would you rather us throw fifth rounders at Dan Boyle for no good reason. You're on a roll tonight buddy! Keep everyone on an even keel. Lord knows we need it. And here's hoping you're rewarded for your faith. 2 krsmith17 and e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Joe Thornton is an insanely good hockey player. For the record. Also for the record: Steve Yzerman was a playoff choker who would obviously never lead his team to ultimate glory. Until he did. And then he did it again the very next year. And then he did it again four years later. And now he's a legend. 1 e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 20, 2014 Datsyuk Thornton Zetterberg Weiss *maniacal laughter* 1 VM1138 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites