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greene709

Article on FAs and Red Wings

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Here is another good one, using the teams uge burden of excellence as an imense pressure point http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2014/7/3/5866071/detroit-red-wings-free-agency-2014-ken-hollands-new-challenge


Christian Ehrhoff joins the Wings, becomes the piece which puts them over the top, wins the Conn Smythe and finally lifts the Stanley Cup. How many people get it before he does? What's the summer-long narrative that we're chewing up? There's a decent chance that it's all about how Ehrhoff came in as the savior who carried the Wings back to the greatness for which they're destined, but much more likely, the story is about how the genius Red Wings got just the right player and how great they are to be back on top. He'd always be the guy who overcame not being Nicklas Lidstrom to win an award less-impressively than The Perfect Human did back in 2002.

If that sounds a bit bleak, then I'm sorry. It's the challenge that Ken Holland has to face. It's his job as the GM to not only ice the best team he can, but to balance their present condition with their future potential and to sell this team to the ownership, to the players, and most-importantly to the fans.

Ken Holland can't afford to not know why players won't come here. He can't afford to fail in overcoming objections. No matter the litany of excuses which come, Ken Holland cannot make the Red Wings a team on an island in the NHL because Ken Holland is already trying to implement a strategy that has built-in disadvantages.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I'm not trying to turn this into a "City" topic but I think that is something that cannot totally been ruled out. We live here, we know better. But what has the national media done? Very superficial headlines, Anthony Bourdain's special about the crumbling city, for someone out of town and they only get headlines about Detroit and they hear "the biggest city ever to declare bankruptcy", Kwame trial, oldest building in the NHL things like that, makes the city look bad. I know there are people rebuilding the city block by block and we have a new mayor and a new arena planned and reasons to be optimistic, but to an outsider considering a move here with his family, he doesn't know how lush the suburbs are that he will be moving his family to, he doesn't know about the great golf course right down the street from his house, he just sees the thing on the news that says Detroit is bankrupt and the Big 3 need bailing out and like it or not, it puts a negative light on the city.

Like I said, we live here, we know better. But I recently turned down a promotion that would have put me in Oakland, CA. Because on the news and reality shows they showed a lot of violence and gang warfare there and I said, I don't think so. And this is coming from someone from DETROIT since 1983! Perception is sometimes stronger than reality.

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Detroit is also the smallest big city in the country. You are far likely to run into trouble in Miami, Chicago, LA, Oakland, New York, Houston, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Fort Lauderdale... Detroit is smaller and the areas are far easier to avoid. If you like architecture Detroit is an awesome place to tour around. Players know they aren't going to live in the city of Detroit, but is the 20-30 minute trip worth it? Are the jacked up roads worth it? The player parking at the Joe is NOT worth it, I've parked there, I know. So the sooner the arena is up and the sooner the mayor gets this city turned around, the better.

Most importantly, the sooner our kids establish that they are up and coming and show they are our future Stanley Cup core, then we will see some influx of UFA's here. Too bad it won't be in time for Datsyuk, but there will soon be the next All-Star center here....so lets see.

I am just mad that all the improvements happening in the city is pushing the people who don'y give a s*** about their hoods out into the suburbs...I come back to the area every week to work and yes I see the people coming into my neighborhoods...its a sad thing that we cannot just somehow convince these people that nothing worth having is free and that keeping your neighborhood nice is a job worth doing...Inkster, Ecorse, River Rouge...ugh, they're like war zones and its creeping into Woodhaven, Brownstown and Flat Rock....sad, sad, sad...

Ok, there is my city view for the year. I still believe its the Front Office and players not liking Babcock. Other than that, nothing has changed anywhere else...we need a change. Holland needs to step aside, Babcock needs to move on. A good start would be convincing Larionov to become asst. coach.

Edited by LeftWinger
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People need to check http://capgeek.com/redwings/ Tatar and DeKeyser need to be signed this off season, and Smith, Nyquist, Jurco, and Andersson need to be signed next off season. It's not smart to be signing UFA's when 6 of your future core players need contracts in 12 months.

Then why waste over four million for two seasons on an unnecessary player? Holland was trying to sign other UFA's anyways. So was that not smart or is it just an excuse now since he failed?

Edited by GoWings1905

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There are probably a lot of reasons why we didn't have any luck landing FAs this year, but I thought this was interesting. A quote from Patrick Eaves about joining the Stars...

"He's got a real good thing going down there. I know they're a hard team to play against and yeah, they're making moves. They're going places and I want to be a part of it," Eaves said on Monday.

Seems like if you haven't been successful in the recent past, and you're doing things to address that, players pay attention. I'm certainly not suggesting that you "do something just to do it" or that Patrick Eaves is the kind of FA you want. But rather that guys want to win, and they recognize when a team is trending upward or downward.

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There are probably a lot of reasons why we didn't have any luck landing FAs this year, but I thought this was interesting. A quote from Patrick Eaves about joining the Stars...

"He's got a real good thing going down there. I know they're a hard team to play against and yeah, they're making moves. They're going places and I want to be a part of it," Eaves said on Monday.

Seems like if you haven't been successful in the recent past, and you're doing things to address that, players pay attention. I'm certainly not suggesting that you "do something just to do it" or that Patrick Eaves is the kind of FA you want. But rather that guys want to win, and they recognize when a team is trending upward or downward.

Dallas Stars GM [Jim Nil] on the acquisition off Jason Spezza

"Sometimes You gotta give up assets if you want to improve your team"

this is coming from someone who has fixed the Stars center depth in 2 years with Seguin and Spezza. Like I said players aren't stupid, they know what the teams around the league are doing and which ones are trying to get better. I think players at least want to see improvement and GMS who are willing to take risks

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The city isn't the issue. It has been largely the same for decades. High crime, high unemployment, people leaving etc... Babcock isn't the issue either. Scotty was/is way harder to play for the Babcock ever was or will be. Scotty was the one who went public about trading away Yzerman if he doesn't start buying in to Scotty's way of doing things. Jimmy D was no pushover either. Always was tough on players at contract time.

Point is quit with the excuses. Either you do or not do. There is no try.

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The city isn't the issue. It has been largely the same for decades. High crime, high unemployment, people leaving etc... Babcock isn't the issue either. Scotty was/is way harder to play for the Babcock ever was or will be. Scotty was the one who went public about trading away Yzerman if he doesn't start buying in to Scotty's way of doing things. Jimmy D was no pushover either. Always was tough on players at contract time.

Point is quit with the excuses. Either you do or not do. There is no try.

I'll agree with the first part, the city is not the issue...or at least is hasn't been for guys like Ivan Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Guillen, Reggie Bush, Golden Tate, Chauncey Billups, etc. etc. etc.

On the subject of Babs I'll say this. What happened in FA wasn't his fault. He's not in charge of managing the roster. I do, however, think that players don't look at him like they did at Bowman. Sure, Scotty was a d*ck, but he coached a powerhouse team that realistically could win the cup every year. Babs is a d*ck whose team isn't going to win s***. So why deal with him? Ken Hitchcock is notoriously difficult to play for, and he gets FAs because his team is a contender. I think players would tolerate Babs if we could compete, but we can't, so they don't. Not his fault, but it does play a part.

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I'll agree with the first part, the city is not the issue...or at least is hasn't been for guys like Ivan Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Guillen, Reggie Bush, Golden Tate, Chauncey Billups, etc. etc. etc.

On the subject of Babs I'll say this. What happened in FA wasn't his fault. He's not in charge of managing the roster. I do, however, think that players don't look at him like they did at Bowman. Sure, Scotty was a d*ck, but he coached a powerhouse team that realistically could win the cup every year. Babs is a d*ck whose team isn't going to win s***. So why deal with him? Ken Hitchcock is notoriously difficult to play for, and he gets FAs because his team is a contender. I think players would tolerate Babs if we could compete, but we can't, so they don't. Not his fault, but it does play a part.

Of course, the Tigers have been a strong contender for years now, hence those guys coming to Detroit. And Billups...well, I don't follow basketball but didn't he suck when he came back? Likely no one else wanted him and he wanted to go somewhere familiar.

The point everyone is making about the city isn't that no one wants to come here just because of that, but if your team is not a contender, there's no reason to choose Detroit over Tampa or Washington or any place with more living perks. If Detroit were winning, we wouldn't have trouble attracting UFAs. But since we're not really any better than the rest of the middling teams, the city of Detroit isn't going to be a selling point.

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Of course, the Tigers have been a strong contender for years now, hence those guys coming to Detroit. And Billups...well, I don't follow basketball but didn't he suck when he came back? Likely no one else wanted him and he wanted to go somewhere familiar.

The point everyone is making about the city isn't that no one wants to come here just because of that, but if your team is not a contender, there's no reason to choose Detroit over Tampa or Washington or any place with more living perks. If Detroit were winning, we wouldn't have trouble attracting UFAs. But since we're not really any better than the rest of the middling teams, the city of Detroit isn't going to be a selling point.

Every single person I mentioned came to those teams before they were contenders. That's why I mentioned them. And no, Billups didn't suck before coming to Detroit.

I usually agree with you, but you're off base on this. The Lions have never been a contender, the Pistons were one AFTER they signed Billups and traded for Hamilton and Wallace, and the Tigers were a contender after signing Guillen, Ordonez, and Rodriguez.

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I agree Kip. The Tigers couldn't attract crap until Pudge came here. Then it seemed like the flood gates opened to more and better players coming and staying. I guess all the Wings need is that ONE highly respected UFA to come in and on the doors for others...but re-signing #kfq, #f***cleay and mediocre goaltending is not going to help...

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I'll agree with the first part, the city is not the issue...or at least is hasn't been for guys like Ivan Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Guillen, Reggie Bush, Golden Tate, Chauncey Billups, etc. etc. etc.

On the subject of Babs I'll say this. What happened in FA wasn't his fault. He's not in charge of managing the roster. I do, however, think that players don't look at him like they did at Bowman. Sure, Scotty was a d*ck, but he coached a powerhouse team that realistically could win the cup every year. Babs is a d*ck whose team isn't going to win s***. So why deal with him? Ken Hitchcock is notoriously difficult to play for, and he gets FAs because his team is a contender. I think players would tolerate Babs if we could compete, but we can't, so they don't. Not his fault, but it does play a part.

Definitely I agree with you, that if the team was better then most players wouldn't care who the coach was, although I would be weary of players that don't want to play for a tough coach like Babs or Hitchcock.

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And it just so happened that his buddy happened to play for a team good enough to make it to the Stanley Cup Finals. For some reason I have a hard time believing he'd have been so friendly if St. Louis played for the Oilers lol.

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So why did Suter and Parise go to Minnesota? Because they are so competitive? Did Niskanen go to Washington because they are Cup finalists? Moulson went to Buffalo because they're making so many good moves? Seems not to matter how much evidence to the contrary, there's going to continue to be the "Detroit's not a destination because of...." conspiracy theory.


Oh, and Patrick Eaves? LOL He "chose" to go to the Stars? They scooped him up off the scrap heap after being let loose twice in the past year and is being paid like 500k on a one year deal. Give me a break

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So why did Suter and Parise go to Minnesota? Because they are so competitive? Did Niskanen go to Washington because they are Cup finalists? Moulson went to Buffalo because they're making so many good moves? Seems not to matter how much evidence to the contrary, there's going to continue to be the "Detroit's not a destination because of...." conspiracy theory.

Oh, and Patrick Eaves? LOL He "chose" to go to the Stars? They scooped him up off the scrap heap after being let loose twice in the past year and is being paid like 500k on a one year deal. Give me a break

Wait, I'm confused. Is you point that there was absolutely, 100%, nothing that Ken Holland could have done to improve this team other than sign Kyle Quincey? Because if not then it's a moot point.

The fact that guys would rather sign to play with their buddies,or sign for less money, or sign with non-playoff teams, than sign with your team and get paid to win is a problem. It says that either A) you're not winning, B) you're not paying, or both.

Edited by kipwinger

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Wait, I'm confused. Is you point that there was absolutely, 100%, nothing that Ken Holland could have done to improve this team other than sign Kyle Quincey? Because if not then it's a moot point.

The fact that guys would rather sign to play with their buddies,or sign for less money, or sign with non-playoff teams, than sign with your team and get paid to win is a problem. It says that either A) you're not winning, B) you're not paying, or both.

There were things he could have done and it seems like he made a reasonable effort to do so. I wanted Niskanen as much as everyone else did. But it isn't like he's Ryan Suter. If Holland had given him a 7 year deal at 6 million per season, would that sparkle with everyone? Half the fan base would have ripped him for it. Unfortunately, as teams like Philly are finding out, you have to think of today, but keep an eye on the future as well and it seems like more often than not, these long term free agent deals come back to bite you in the ass. If we had signed Niskanen and the three young D prospects all turn out to be good, how are you going to pay them all? Not to mention DeKeyser and all the young forwards who will be due for a big pay day if they are successful. It's a balancing act. I'm not in love with every move Ken Holland makes, but I also don't think there's some league wide mandate to avoid the Wings either or that they're so awful and the future is so bleak that free agents are signing else where.

While everyone is lauding Steve Yzerman for his GM abilities, he still hasn't gotten his team past the first round of the playoffs. Jim Nill either (though he's only had one season) Making moves isn't necessarily better than standing pat. We'll see in the years to come.

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There were things he could have done and it seems like he made a reasonable effort to do so. I wanted Niskanen as much as everyone else did. But it isn't like he's Ryan Suter. If Holland had given him a 7 year deal at 6 million per season, would that sparkle with everyone? Half the fan base would have ripped him for it. Unfortunately, as teams like Philly are finding out, you have to think of today, but keep an eye on the future as well and it seems like more often than not, these long term free agent deals come back to bite you in the ass. If we had signed Niskanen and the three young D prospects all turn out to be good, how are you going to pay them all? Not to mention DeKeyser and all the young forwards who will be due for a big pay day if they are successful. It's a balancing act. I'm not in love with every move Ken Holland makes, but I also don't think there's some league wide mandate to avoid the Wings either or that they're so awful and the future is so bleak that free agents are signing else where.

While everyone is lauding Steve Yzerman for his GM abilities, he still hasn't gotten his team past the first round of the playoffs. Jim Nill either (though he's only had one season) Making moves isn't necessarily better than standing pat. We'll see in the years to come.

Sorry but I have to correct you on that:

In his first-GM season Yzerman and the Tampa Bay Lightning reached the Eastern Conferecne Finals, only being stopped but a juggernaut named Boston.

In 4 years Yzerman has built up their AHL franchise, created competition for spots at the pro level what more could he have done ? Win the cup? Sure but it's not like Tampa is that good right now.

I know that Holland has done a lot of great things for this organisation but at some point every GM becomes to emotionally attached to his players (good examples are Tallon, Burke) plus he has also become unwilling to take risks. If someone offers you Volchenkov at 1 mill and then Quincey at 4,25 per ? The decision is easy and I don#t need GM experience to make such an easy decision. When it comes down to the point where top UFAs are taking less (term and lengthwise) to sign elsewhere, all alarm bells should start to ring 24/7, because it's basically telling an organization two things:

1. you are not good enough to win the cup

2. your future is bleak at best

At that point a GM should do everything in his power to guide the ship in the right direction, talk to agents about the perception and how to correct it. Desperate moves aren't going to cut it.

as for Detroit not being a destination anymore:

Well they didn't make Ehrhoffs final list nor Niskanen's so that should be telling.

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There were things he could have done and it seems like he made a reasonable effort to do so. I wanted Niskanen as much as everyone else did. But it isn't like he's Ryan Suter. If Holland had given him a 7 year deal at 6 million per season, would that sparkle with everyone? Half the fan base would have ripped him for it. Unfortunately, as teams like Philly are finding out, you have to think of today, but keep an eye on the future as well and it seems like more often than not, these long term free agent deals come back to bite you in the ass. If we had signed Niskanen and the three young D prospects all turn out to be good, how are you going to pay them all? Not to mention DeKeyser and all the young forwards who will be due for a big pay day if they are successful. It's a balancing act. I'm not in love with every move Ken Holland makes, but I also don't think there's some league wide mandate to avoid the Wings either or that they're so awful and the future is so bleak that free agents are signing else where.

While everyone is lauding Steve Yzerman for his GM abilities, he still hasn't gotten his team past the first round of the playoffs. Jim Nill either (though he's only had one season) Making moves isn't necessarily better than standing pat. We'll see in the years to come.

It sounds like the gist of your first paragraph is that "he tried, and they didn't come, so there's nothing that could have been done". In which case, we should blame fate, and nothing else since player acquisition is clearly this much of a crap shoot.

It sounds like the gist of your second paragraph is "other teams lose in the first round too, so we should wait and see if we get better next year". Which entirely ignores the fact that Tampa breezed into the playoffs and made moves to get better, and Dallas breezed into the playoffs (in a harder conference) and made moves to get better, while Detroit stumbled into the playoffs (two years in a row) and did nothing to get better.

I'd be fine with the "sometimes making moves isn't better than standing pat" argument if we already had a really good team, and internal growth might put us over the top without costing assets. But we're not a really good team. We're a team who (narrowly) outpaced teams like Washington and Toronto for a playoff spot the last two years. What level is internal growth going to bring us up to? Columbus level good?

But you can't make em come to Detroit eh?

Dallas just got Jason Spezza for Alex Chaisson, a prospect, and a pic. We can offer better packages than that. So, A) we don't offer, B) if we offered, they'd come, C) we do offer, they wouldn't come (in which case there IS some reason to believe guys are actively avoiding Detroit).

Edited by kipwinger

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Sorry but I have to correct you on that:

In his first-GM season Yzerman and the Tampa Bay Lightning reached the Eastern Conferecne Finals, only being stopped but a juggernaut named Boston.

In 4 years Yzerman has built up their AHL franchise, created competition for spots at the pro level what more could he have done ? Win the cup? Sure but it's not like Tampa is that good right now.

I know that Holland has done a lot of great things for this organisation but at some point every GM becomes to emotionally attached to his players (good examples are Tallon, Burke) plus he has also become unwilling to take risks. If someone offers you Volchenkov at 1 mill and then Quincey at 4,25 per ? The decision is easy and I don#t need GM experience to make such an easy decision. When it comes down to the point where top UFAs are taking less (term and lengthwise) to sign elsewhere, all alarm bells should start to ring 24/7, because it's basically telling an organization two things:

1. you are not good enough to win the cup

2. your future is bleak at best

At that point a GM should do everything in his power to guide the ship in the right direction, talk to agents about the perception and how to correct it. Desperate moves aren't going to cut it.

as for Detroit not being a destination anymore:

Well they didn't make Ehrhoffs final list nor Niskanen's so that should be telling.

Or:

1. They wanted to be near friends and family

2. They wanted to be with a last place team like Washington that's in the middle of a major rebuild

3. They love the Minnesota weather

Weiss, Alfredsson and DeKeyser were top sought after free agents who DID sign here.

It sounds like the gist of your first paragraph is that "he tried, and they didn't come, so there's nothing that could have been done". In which case, we should blame fate, and nothing else since player acquisition is clearly this much of a crap shoot.

It sounds like the gist of your second paragraph is "other teams lose in the first round too, so we should wait and see if we get better next year". Which entirely ignores the fact that Tampa breezed into the playoffs and made moves to get better, and Dallas breezed into the playoffs (in a harder conference) and made moves to get better, while Detroit stumbled into the playoffs (two years in a row) and did nothing to get better.

I'd be fine with the "sometimes making moves isn't better than standing pat" argument if we already had a really good team, and internal growth might put us over the top without costing assets. But we're not a really good team. We're a team who (narrowly) outpaced teams like Washington and Toronto for a playoff spot the last two years. What level is internal growth going to bring us up to? Columbus level good?

But you can't make em come to Detroit eh?

Dallas just got Jason Spezza for Alex Chaisson, a prospect, and a pic. We can offer better packages than that. So, A) we don't offer, B) if we offered, they'd come, C) we do offer, they wouldn't come (in which case there IS some reason to believe guys are actively avoiding Detroit).

Or

A) Ottawa wouldn't trade within the division

B) Holland wasn't parting with assets for a position that wasn't a need

C) Didn't want to add a 7 million dollar a year rental when there are other needs the team has.

Or maybe Holland just sucks and the Wings should have had won the Cup for 15 years straight.

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Or:

1. They wanted to be near friends and family

2. They wanted to be with a last place team like Washington that's in the middle of a major rebuild

3. They love the Minnesota weather

Weiss, Alfredsson and DeKeyser were top sought after free agents who DID sign here.

Or

A) Ottawa wouldn't trade within the division

B) Holland wasn't parting with assets for a position that wasn't a need

C) Didn't want to add a 7 million dollar a year rental when there are other needs the team has.

Or maybe Holland just sucks and the Wings should have had won the Cup for 15 years straight.

It's an example of the types of packages Holland either doesn't offer, or does and gets rejected. I know he didn't offer on Spezza, and you know what I meant.

You make it seem like Hollands trying his best, and not getting any results, but then ALSO say that people aren't actively avoiding the Wings. So since we're not getting players, I don't see how both can be true.

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It's an example of the types of packages Holland either doesn't offer, or does and gets rejected. I know he didn't offer on Spezza, and you know what I meant.

You make it seem like Hollands trying his best, and not getting any results, but then ALSO say that people aren't actively avoiding the Wings. So since we're not getting players, I don't see how both can be true.

No, I really don't know what you meant. You referred to the Spezza trade. I really have no idea what trades Holland or any other GM has offered to any team for any player.

The Wings are getting players, the Wings just aren't getting EVERY player. Wings fans seem to "misremember" when it comes to the past. Most, if not all of the free agents the Wings have "missed out" on have signed with teams worse than the Wings with even less chance at winning the Cup. Who were all these elite free agents that we used to get that we aren't getting now?

Personally, I don't think the future looks all the bleak. Cup favorites? Probably not next year or maybe the year after that, but they have some talented young players that I'm excited to see how they mature. The Wings, under Holland, have done a superb job of getting talented players with lower draft picks.

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