Mantha

[VM1138 1,921]

Oh I know. I wanted to emphasize the point.

[WingedWheel91 271]

I'd hardly call 5 points in 10 games subpar for a kid who has played only ten games in the NHL.

If you are talking about Mantha - he only had 3 points in 10 games. Not terrible for a rookie, but how many rookies play on the 1st line with Datsyuk, and also see regular PP time during the first 10 games of their career?

For the "pure scorer" he is said to be, I was expecting a higher scoring output while understanding his defensive limitations.

The decision for Blashill is pretty simple: If Mantha is going to produce similar offensive numbers to Darren Helm, it makes no sense to keep in him on Datsyuk's wing because Helm is much more physical, can also play C (depending on matchups) and is 10X the defensive player Mantha is at this stage.

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

The point is that Mantha has produced more next to Datsyuk, on a per-game-basis, than Helm and Richards who still get paired with him too often, despite their "performance" . I could understand playing experience over talent if the Vets were even, or almost even, but that's not the case. I don't blame neither guy for their lack of production, don't get me wrong, it's on Blashill (and Babcock, all those years before, regarding Helm..). Richards is old and done, and Helm...the guy just isn't a top 6 forward. He's a bottom 6 guy who is an exceptional PKer, and it's not his fault that he gets overused by his coaches all the time..

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'm probably one of Helm's biggest supporters and I really hope we can work out a deal to get him extended this offseason. In saying that, he is much better suited in the bottom 6, whereas Mantha is not suited for the bottom 6. So you can play Mantha, who has had a positive impact in every game he's played, in the top 6, and play Helm, who is a positive impact player no matter where he plays in the lineup, in the bottom 6. Or you can scratch Mantha, play Helm in the top 6 with Datsyuk and put Andersson, who is awful at just about everything, in the bottom 6... Which is the better option?...

It's not like it would be a disservice to Helm to play him in the bottom 6 and be our go-to guy on the penalty kill. A 4th line of Sheahan - Glendening - Helm would be a weapon in the playoffs, and if that were our 4th line, I'd have no problem with them playing big minutes, matching up against the other teams' top lines..

[wings4thecup06 504]

If you are talking about Mantha - he only had 3 points in 10 games. Not terrible for a rookie, but how many rookies play on the 1st line with Datsyuk, and also see regular PP time during the first 10 games of their career?

For the "pure scorer" he is said to be, I was expecting a higher scoring output while understanding his defensive limitations.

The decision for Blashill is pretty simple: If Mantha is going to produce similar offensive numbers to Darren Helm, it makes no sense to keep in him on Datsyuk's wing because Helm is much more physical, can also play C (depending on matchups) and is 10X the defensive player Mantha is at this stage.

I get what you're saying, but I think you've set your expectations too high. This is a guy who broke his leg in his first pro season, took nearly a year to figure it out at that level before he could start playing at that level. The NHL is a completely different animal than the AHL - just ask Pulkkinen.

The fact remains that in the games Mantha was playing (at least the first few before his ice time got unreasonably reduced IMO) he was creating chances, protecting the puck in the O zone AND helping our PP click. Anyone remember the number of breakaways or scoring chances he had? What about his first shift when he broke his stick on a slapshot? And Krsmith, I wholeheartedly agree with your points....

The problem here is is that management/possibly Blashill are being way way too conservative - and it's stifling our offensive potential. I read somewhere that Nyquist and Tatar have had their ice time reduced this season, so it's no wonder they've lost their confidence and their goal totals have suffered.

That kind of conservative attitude is why Andersson has been recalled - because they'd rather have a guy there who they don't think will f*** it up defensively, instead of play some more offensive minded players that will actually allow us to retain the puck and keep us out of our D zone. It's a playing it safe mentality that is going to get us eaten alive in the postseason.

Now watch as AA is benched for a lot of this first round series, in spite of him scoring a few timely goals.

I've been behind management supporting their decisions for a long time. But right now, i can't say I feel the same enthusiasm.

Edited April 12, 2016 by wings4thecup06

[13dangledangle 965]

I miss his size, he used it well. He used it best I thought while retrieving pucks from the corners and along the boards in the offensive zone. He was good with his stick and obviously a great chara like reach. I really thought we played some of our best hockey with him here & was excited to have him back in the lineup.

Though as soon as I b@*ched about Andersson playing the other day he almost scored and didn't look bad at all either, so I guess Ill just have to believe that Blash and Holland know what they are doing

[The Datsyukian Deke 127]

For Anderson it's the same like Helm, just on different levels: Dude gives everything he has and cannot be blamed for being played in the first place. I always think there is too much negativity like "oh no, Andersson again..". It should be "oh no, what a roster decision again..", because you cannot blame guys for lacking talent, you can only blame the coach for not realizing (or ignoring..) it.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I don't think anyone really blames Andersson for sucking. For me anyway, I blame management for still having him in the organization and the coaching staff for still playing him...

I hoped back in January that he would have been claimed off waivers, of course he wasn't and now he's back with the team yet again...

[WingedWheel91 271]

The point is that Mantha has produced more next to Datsyuk, on a per-game-basis, than Helm and Richards who still get paired with him too often, despite their "performance" . I could understand playing experience over talent if the Vets were even, or almost even, but that's not the case. I don't blame neither guy for their lack of production, don't get me wrong, it's on Blashill (and Babcock, all those years before, regarding Helm..). Richards is old and done, and Helm...the guy just isn't a top 6 forward. He's a bottom 6 guy who is an exceptional PKer, and it's not his fault that he gets overused by his coaches all the time..

Mantha produced 3 Points in 10 Games (0.30 PPG) playing exclusively with Datsyuk and (also) the PP. Helm has produced 26 Points in 77 Games (0.34 PPG), playing everywhere + killing penalties. Mantha is -6 in 10 Games, Helm is -2 in 77. I don't know how you can possibly say Mantha has produced "more next to Datsyuk" than Helm and Richards (0.41 PPG / +4).

[WingedWheel91 271]

I'm probably one of Helm's biggest supporters and I really hope we can work out a deal to get him extended this offseason. In saying that, he is much better suited in the bottom 6, whereas Mantha is not suited for the bottom 6. So you can play Mantha, who has had a positive impact in every game he's played, in the top 6, and play Helm, who is a positive impact player no matter where he plays in the lineup, in the bottom 6. Or you can scratch Mantha, play Helm in the top 6 with Datsyuk and put Andersson, who is awful at just about everything, in the bottom 6... Which is the better option?...

It's not like it would be a disservice to Helm to play him in the bottom 6 and be our go-to guy on the penalty kill. A 4th line of Sheahan - Glendening - Helm would be a weapon in the playoffs, and if that were our 4th line, I'd have no problem with them playing big minutes, matching up against the other teams' top lines..

If you have Sheahan - Glendenning - Helm as our 4th line, they might average about 7 minutes per game - so you would have Anthanasiou, Mantha, and Richards playing extended minutes in the top 9... We can't afford to have 2 rookies and a washed up vet playing significant minutes without a hint of physicality in the post season.

This is why you need a guy like Helm on Datsyuk's wing - just like you need Abdelkader on Zetterbergs wing. It's a much different game in the playoffs - and were going up against a very physical group of defenceman. Our talented players will need all the space they can get.

You also can't put Mantha on the 4th line in the NHL playoffs - and if Helm is the better option on the 2nd, there is no room for him. Hence why Anderson (who certainly fits a 4th line mold better than Mantha) is in the lineup.

Edited April 12, 2016 by WingedWheel91

[krsmith17 7,191]

Why would our 4th line all of a sudden only get 7 minutes a night? When all three have averaged over double that all season long? IF that were our 4th line they would be relied upon heavily and would likely get 16+ minutes a night matching up against / shutting down the oppositions top line... You're right though, we can't afford to have Athanasiou and Mantha playing in the top 9...

We're going up against a very physical defense? Really? The only defenseman on that team that I would consider physical is Coburn, they don't have that clown Gudas anymore.

I never suggested putting Mantha on the 4th line, but even so, there's not a doubt in my mind that he would be a much better player than Andersson, even in a 4th line role. Andersson flat out sucks...

[WingedWheel91 271]

Why would our 4th line all of a sudden only get 7 minutes a night? When all three have averaged over double that all season long? IF that were our 4th line they would be relied upon heavily and would likely get 16+ minutes a night matching up against / shutting down the oppositions top line... You're right though, we can't afford to have Athanasiou and Mantha playing in the top 9...

We're going up against a very physical defense? Really? The only defenseman on that team that I would consider physical is Coburn, they don't have that clown Gudas anymore.

I never suggested putting Mantha on the 4th line, but even so, there's not a doubt in my mind that he would be a much better player than Andersson, even in a 4th line role. Andersson flat out sucks...

Do the Math - there are 60 Minutes in a game - how many minutes do 4th line players typically play? 7-10 Minutes is about the average.

This season, neither Helm or Sheahan have seen extended time on the 4th line - hence their MPG averages. Glendenning is our best penalty killer, and averaged a more reasonable amount of ice time because of it.

To put 3/4 of our most physical forwards (who all play Center) on the "4th line" is ridiculous, and a waste of time to discuss because it never has and never will happen lol.

To say that Mantha is better than Andersson is debatable, but those who have played hockey understand Anderson's superior defensive + faceoff ability (in relation to Mantha) make him a more valuable 4th line player. If Mantha failed to outscore Helm on Datsyuk's wing - which is statistically true - Helm is obviously the more valuable 2nd line player because of all of the other things he brings (Speed, Physicality, 2-way Ability, Creates space for Pav, Faceoff Ability etc.)

In terms of Anthanasiou - what makes you think he has the ability to play at the level we expect for more than his average of 9 MPG? He's an unproven commodity who has done well on a PPG basis considering his MPG, but it also isn't uncommon for players to lose their productivity when the minutes increase. Happens all the time.

Edited April 12, 2016 by WingedWheel91

[Richdg 267]

Do the Math - there are 60 Minutes in a game - how many minutes do 4th line players typically play? 7-10 Minutes is about the average.

This season, neither Helm or Sheahan have seen extended time on the 4th line - hence their MPG averages. Glendenning is our best penalty killer, and averaged a more reasonable amount of ice time because of it.

To put 3/4 of our most physical forwards (who all play Center) on the "4th line" is ridiculous, and a waste of time to discuss because it never has and never will happen lol.

To say that Mantha is better than Andersson is debatable, but those who have played hockey understand Anderson's superior defensive + faceoff ability (in relation to Mantha) make him a more valuable 4th line player. If Mantha failed to outscore Helm on Datsyuk's wing - which is statistically true - Helm is obviously the more valuable 2nd line player because of all of the other things he brings (Speed, Physicality, 2-way Ability, Creates space for Pav, Faceoff Ability etc.)

In terms of Anthanasiou - what makes you think he has the ability to play at the level we expect for more than his average of 9 MPG? He's an unproven commodity who has done well on a PPG basis considering his MPG, but it also isn't uncommon for players to lose their productivity when the minutes increase. Happens all the time.

Sorry WW, you are so lost I am not sure where to even begin. Bless your heart.

[krsmith17 7,191]

So how do you explain Glendening's minutes? You obviously haven't payed much / any attention to how WE use our 4th line. Glendening averaged 15ish minutes a game this season and last season in the playoffs. What makes you think that would change. It definitely would not.

I would rank all three of Glendening, Helm and Sheahan as three of our best penalty killers, which is just another reason I would play all of them together on the 4th line.

You say putting three centers on the 4th line is ridiculous but then say Andersson should be in there because of his faceoffs ability... By the way, Helm hasn't played any significant time at center in a couple years. He's better suited as a winger - bottom six winger...

To say that Andersson is even remotely better than Mantha at any aspect of the game (other than faceoffs) is laughable...

[WingedWheel91 271]

I have played NCAA hockey... I don't love it - but I get it.

Jeff Blashill also played NCAA hockey - and now coaches in the NHL... He just made the playoffs in his rookie season, so it's possible he also get it.

It's easy to complain about coaching decisions when you don't understand the game.

I guess our team would be in better hands with Richdg and Krsmith running the show - did you guys apply last summer?

[krsmith17 7,191]

Haha so you're going to be THAT guy are you? "I played the game at a high level so my opinion means more than yours" Haha. Im actually an ex-NHLer so i guess my opinion trumps yours...

By the way, I never once said I should be the coach, or that I know more about the game than Blashill. In fact I've said Blashill is a great coach, but just like every great coach, he has his flaws. Blashill's biggest flaw in my opinion is player usage.

But your right, I don't understand the game, so who am I to voice my opinion on a hockey forum...

[WingedWheel91 271]

Sorry it wasn't a personal thing - I just think those who have actually played at any level of hockey (higher than houseleague) understand coaching decisions better than those who didn't, mainly because these same decisions have affected our lives/playing time/careers etc - I have no idea if you played or not, but I said it in support of Blashill.

If you don't agree that Anderson is a better fit for our 4th Line than Mantha - that's your opinion. But it obviously isn't what's happening - so to say it's laughable is kind of strange... It also implies you know more about this team than Blashill might, but I believe there are alot of people who would rather see Anderson plug the 4th line while Mantha develops as a scorer in Grand Rapids.

Again, Mantha scored 3 points in 10 Games and was a -6 on Pavel Datsyuk's wing. Furthermore, 2/3 of his points came on the PP - which is rare for a rookie to even be a part of. At even strength (which is much more important in the playoffs) Mantha registered 1 point, and was -6 while playing with one of the best 2 Way Center's of our generation.

Laughable is an interesting word you used, but Darren Helms even strength numbers with Pavel Datsyuk are much better.

So would you rather have Mantha developing as an integral part of the Griffins playoff run, or playing on the 4th line in the NHL Playoffs? His lack of physicality, defensive awareness, and experience are exactly why he is where he is.

Edited April 12, 2016 by WingedWheel91

[joesuffP 1,746]

I have to agree that our best chance to win a 7 game series is a greuling defensive chess match with matching lines.... Adding Mantha, Smith and giving AA significant time may seem like it adds limitless offense which it doesn't and will almost retained make us certainly defensively

Edited April 12, 2016 by joesuffP

[krsmith17 7,191]

My point was never to have Mantha on the 4th line, so you should probably stop implying that's what I said, because it's not at all... I'm saying Mantha on this team right now is far more important to this team today and in the future than having Andersson in any capacity. The guy is a plug.

I said before we clinched a playoff spot that I wanted us to make it for the simple fact that it would give the kids (including Mantha) some much needed experience. Now that he's been sent down, our team is worse now than it was a week ago, and Mantha loses out on the chance to gain some NHL playoff experience, as well as (possibly) a last chance to play with and learn from one of the best forwards of this generation. I think it's a mistake. You'd rather Andersson in the lineup. Cool...

Also love how you keep pointing out his +/- stat. That's when I could really tell you played at a high level and you know your s***...

[marcaractac 3,963]

Do the Math - there are 60 Minutes in a game - how many minutes do 4th line players typically play? 7-10 Minutes is about the average.

This season, neither Helm or Sheahan have seen extended time on the 4th line - hence their MPG averages. Glendenning is our best penalty killer, and averaged a more reasonable amount of ice time because of it.

To put 3/4 of our most physical forwards (who all play Center) on the "4th line" is ridiculous, and a waste of time to discuss because it never has and never will happen lol.

To say that Mantha is better than Andersson is debatable, but those who have played hockey understand Anderson's superior defensive + faceoff ability (in relation to Mantha) make him a more valuable 4th line player. If Mantha failed to outscore Helm on Datsyuk's wing - which is statistically true - Helm is obviously the more valuable 2nd line player because of all of the other things he brings (Speed, Physicality, 2-way Ability, Creates space for Pav, Faceoff Ability etc.)

In terms of Anthanasiou - what makes you think he has the ability to play at the level we expect for more than his average of 9 MPG? He's an unproven commodity who has done well on a PPG basis considering his MPG, but it also isn't uncommon for players to lose their productivity when the minutes increase. Happens all the time.

Andersson is just SO VALUABLE that Holland waived him during the season.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Andersson is just SO VALUABLE that four months ago we decided we didn't want him anymore, put him on waivers and not a single team wanted to pick him up for a measly 800K...

[WingedWheel91 271]

My point was never to have Mantha on the 4th line, so you should probably stop implying that's what I said, because it's not at all... I'm saying Mantha on this team right now is far more important to this team today and in the future than having Andersson in any capacity. The guy is a plug.

I said before we clinched a playoff spot that I wanted us to make it for the simple fact that it would give the kids (including Mantha) some much needed experience. Now that he's been sent down, our team is worse now than it was a week ago, and Mantha loses out on the chance to gain some NHL playoff experience, as well as (possibly) a last chance to play with and learn from one of the best forwards of this generation. I think it's a mistake. You'd rather Andersson in the lineup. Cool...

Also love how you keep pointing out his +/- stat. That's when I could really tell you played at a high level and you know your s***..

If this is sarcastic - I love how you made it your last point.

So this will be my last point, because I'm not sure how old you are but you obviously haven't played relevant enough hockey - nor do I feel like arguing with a teenager I have never met - that dismisses the value of +/-. My D1 college coach actually valued this statistic more so than goals or assists, and the playoffs are a chess match where defensive liability has a bigger impact than offensive potential.

Aren't you the same guy that loves Brendan Smith and thinks he is better than Quincey? Good luck in the postseason with that mind set.

Let me guess, I'm wrong again lol

[WingedWheel91 271]

Andersson is just SO VALUABLE that four months ago we decided we didn't want him anymore, put him on waivers and not a single team wanted to pick him up for a measly 800K...

You guys are cute but what exactly are you talking about? I don't think Anderson is "SO VALUABLE" at all - I think that on April 12th 2016, he is better suited for a 1st Round Playoff match-up on our 4th Line than Mantha is. Do I wish we had a better option on our 4th line? Obviously.

Has Mantha shown he is a better option than Helm or Richards beside Datsyuk? No.

Edited April 12, 2016 by WingedWheel91

[Wheelchairsuperhero 1,453]

Adding Andersson doesn't suddenly make this team an SC contender. We were better off riding it out with Mantha (like when we were actually winning games), especially giving the limited time everyone has left to play with Datsyuk. Is Andersson a better 4th liner? Maybe. Is that worth it? No.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Nothing gets past you, you're right, I was being sarcastic. If you believe that +/- is a relevant stat in any argument, you're a lot less knowledgeable about the sport than I previously thought.

Right again, I'm a teenage kid that's never played the game. I actually just heard about the sport two years ago, but I've been a huge fan ever since... You obviously know way more about hockey (that's how it's spelt isn't it?) than me. Great chat though, I feel like I've learned so much...

Joakim Andersson > Anthony Mantha, Smith sucks - Got it!