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kickazz

Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired? Poll/Discussion

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Should any of #91, #13, #40, #30 be retired?  

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4 hours ago, kliq said:

See below, I was actually just reading this article today.

Active NHLers who are a lock for jersey retirement as Devils announce honor for Elias | The Hockey News

Detroit Red Wings — Henrik Zetterberg
Just ask GM Ken Holland. Speaking with THN’s Ken Campbell on Thursday, Holland made it clear he has no desire to move Zetterberg and chances are he remains a Red Wing until he decides he’s done with the game. If that’s not enough, Holland said, “Zetterberg’s jersey is going in the rafters.” Enough said.

Are you against Abel, Sawchuk, Lindsay, or Delvecchio being up there? Or do you consider those 4 the elite of the elite?

By the way that interiew was with the senior writer of this magazine/website

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hockey_News

So it’s pretty legit. Probably less fake news than some of the other sources out there.

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18 hours ago, kickazz said:

And that’s probably why Sid Abel and Sawchuck didn’t have their jerseys retired till much later on. Almost 30-40 years after they retired. Whereas Lidstrom and Yzerman had theirs retired RIGHT AWAY.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk have more accomplishments than Sid Abel and Ted Lindsay btw. So if Abel and Lindsay got their numbers retired than Z and D are shoe ins lol. 

Btw you keep saying “should not”. You do realize that Zetterberg’s jersey is getting retired right? Like, Holland said it is. Officially. Done deal.

The only question now is #91, #13, #30

My point was just addressing your statement about Wings players in the rafters and playing their entire career with the Wings.  "Should not" =  Just because Z's jersey is getting retired doesn't mean i have to agree with it.

13 hours ago, kliq said:

Are you against Abel, Sawchuk, Lindsay, or Delvecchio being up there? Or do you consider those 4 the elite of the elite?

No, they should be up in the raters.   I believe for their era of hockey those four were in the category of "elite of the elite".

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8 minutes ago, Learn2LuvIt said:

No, they should be up in the raters.   I believe for their era of hockey those four were in the category of "elite of the elite".

I think sometimes players of that era are put on a pedestal simply because of how long ago it was that they played. Ill use Alex Delvecchio for example, what would you say he accomplished that Fedorov did not? The most points he ever scored in a year was 83, which was good for 7th in the league that year. He won 3 cups (same as Fed), and never won any individual awards (Fed won a Hart). The only only thing he has over Fedorov is that he played here for a very long time, but in that era with the lack of competition, that was a lot easier to do. 

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12 minutes ago, kliq said:

I think sometimes players of that era are put on a pedestal simply because of how long ago it was that they played. Ill use Alex Delvecchio for example, what would you say he accomplished that Fedorov did not? The most points he ever scored in a year was 83, which was good for 7th in the league that year. He won 3 cups (same as Fed), and never won any individual awards (Fed won a Hart). The only only thing he has over Fedorov is that he played here for a very long time, but in that era with the lack of competition, that was a lot easier to do. 

Fair point and I agree with you to some extent on the players from past eras.  I think Sid is held in such high regard because of the few items you mention, AND the fact that he was a part of the Production Line (that basically equaled the Bruins "Kraut Line") that was previously being called in that era as the best line of all time (again in that era).  He was also named to the "100 Greatest Players Of All Time" last year, but so was Feds and a bunch of other guys (Some of which i question), so moot point on that.  I wouldn't be upset of 91's jersey got retired, it's just if it were my call i would vote "no".

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1 hour ago, kliq said:

I think sometimes players of that era are put on a pedestal simply because of how long ago it was that they played. Ill use Alex Delvecchio for example, what would you say he accomplished that Fedorov did not? The most points he ever scored in a year was 83, which was good for 7th in the league that year. He won 3 cups (same as Fed), and never won any individual awards (Fed won a Hart). The only only thing he has over Fedorov is that he played here for a very long time, but in that era with the lack of competition, that was a lot easier to do. 

Delvecchio won several Lady Byng trophies (for what that trophy is worth).  He was a good centerman, but not as good as Mikita or Beliveau, who were more highly regarded in his own era.  Fedorov would rank below those players as well.  

As I've said before many times (and probably even in this thread), I would have Red Kelly and Ullman in the rafters.  Both Lindsay and Sawchuk played at other places as well, and the Red Wings' rivals opponents to boot.  Yet their numbers are retired. 

I'd retire those players first before retiring Fedorov.  

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3 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Franzen is too kinda sorta.

Most retired hockey players are kinda sorta tho. Probert, McCarty too. Probert had brain damage in his autopsy and McCarty suffers from chronic pain from all the punches and hits he's thrown. I would go as far as saying McCarty has it worse than Franzen. Guy has pain 24/7 (can't imagine that annoyance) and data shows these people with chronic pain have a high rate of depression and suicide. 

My point is Vladdy's level of handicap is extreme.. He can't bathe, can't talk, can't walk, can't eat without help, can't move much at all. 

I would say the previous guys have "a disability" and even that is a big maybe. But even Diabetes is considered a disability technically. Vladdy  doesn't have "a disability". The guy is a completely disabled head to toe. He defines the word itself unfortunately. 

Plus I'm pretty sure his number was out of circulation because of the tragic way he succumbed to his disability. Car accident. Franzen, McCarty, Probert etc all got wear and tear over the years because of all the miles they put in during  the games. 

Anyways, Franzen's number won't need to be out of circulation. #93 is a rare number and I doubt anyone would want to wear it. 

Edited by kickazz

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4 hours ago, kickazz said:

Most retired hockey players are kinda sorta tho. Probert, McCarty too. Probert had brain damage in his autopsy and McCarty suffers from chronic pain from all the punches and hits he's thrown. I would go as far as saying McCarty has it worse than Franzen. Guy has pain 24/7 (can't imagine that annoyance) and data shows these people with chronic pain have a high rate of depression and suicide. 

My point is Vladdy's level of handicap is extreme.. He can't bathe, can't talk, can't walk, can't eat without help, can't move much at all. 

I would say the previous guys have "a disability" and even that is a big maybe. But even Diabetes is considered a disability technically. Vladdy  doesn't have "a disability". The guy is a completely disabled head to toe. He defines the word itself unfortunately. 

Plus I'm pretty sure his number was out of circulation because of the tragic way he succumbed to his disability. Car accident. Franzen, McCarty, Probert etc all got wear and tear over the years because of all the miles they put in during  the games. 

Anyways, Franzen's number won't need to be out of circulation. #93 is a rare number and I doubt anyone would want to wear it. 

I know what you meant, just trying to show the Mule some love. The guy is in for rough years down the road. Would not be surprised if he suffers from headaches now and depression and psychological issues later. The guy basically gave his brain, and a normal life, to this team to the point that it compromised his play on the ice significantly and then he gets accused of being lazy and indifferent because of it. I was always supportive of Franzen, even after his game diminished, because concussions and CTE are no joke. Something was clearly wrong and he deserved the benefit of the doubt, and its a shame so many wouldn't give him that. I don't recall you being a Franzen hater tho, so I'm definitely not directing anything at you.

Anyway, I would be OK with 93 getting the 16 treatment tho.

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11 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I know what you meant, just trying to show the Mule some love. The guy is in for rough years down the road. Would not be surprised if he suffers from headaches now and depression and psychological issues later. The guy basically gave his brain, and a normal life, to this team to the point that it compromised his play on the ice significantly and then he gets accused of being lazy and indifferent because of it. I was always supportive of Franzen, even after his game diminished, because concussions and CTE are no joke. Something was clearly wrong and he deserved the benefit of the doubt, and its a shame so many wouldn't give him that. I don't recall you being a Franzen hater tho, so I'm definitely not directing anything at you.

Anyway, I would be OK with 93 getting the 16 treatment tho.

Whoever Zetterberg likes, I like. So yeah I like Franzen even though I tease CRL there.

I don't think Franzen will suffer from those issues. Most people who suffer from concussions don't end up becoming suicidal, or killers. There's a few that do but it's pretty rare.

It's a little blown out of proportion because it's a terrible thing that can happen and we've only now been learning about it thru research but I believe that chances are very low. I could be wrong and 10 years from now Franzen end up being one of the unlucky ones and starts getting some symptoms.

But to get a number out of circulation for concussions would be way too lenient. There's no way I would put what happened to Franzen at the level of what happened to Vladdy. It's just not even close. 

Maybe there's something else that could be done. Fischer got a pretty nice job with the Wings management. Franzen should get some sort of recognition as well. 

Edited by kickazz

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17 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

The bigger question is...

Shouldn't #93 be off limits and respected at the same level #16 is?

 Think that’s fair. Add #90 too, but for a different reason.

#40 is a lock.

#30 should be up there too. When you own the all time career playoff record for games played, minutes played, wins, shutouts, and even points on an Original 6 franchise, I think it’s deserved. But for a goalie who achieved so much, he’s always been an afterthought with some fans, while being considered a legend to others. Did his job well, won a lot of games and three Cups. But he was quiet, wasn’t flashy and didn’t really stand out, and didn’t  compete much for individual league awards. I’m sure retiring his number has been discussed by Wings brass. 

#91? Skills, stats, individual awards, and Cups are there, but that is somewhat tarnished by his money hungry attitude and him leaving Detroit for Anaheim in the off-season right after the first round upset sweep. I dunno if Wings brass would bother with it at this point.

 

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4 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

 Think that’s fair. Add #90 too, but for a different reason.

#40 is a lock.

#30 should be up there too. When you own the all time career playoff record for games played, minutes played, wins, shutouts, and even points on an Original 6 franchise, I think it’s deserved. But for a goalie who achieved so much, he’s always been an afterthought with some fans, while being considered a legend to others. Did his job well, won a lot of games and three Cups. But he was quiet, wasn’t flashy and didn’t really stand out, and didn’t  compete much for individual league awards. I’m sure retiring his number has been discussed by Wings brass. 

#91? Skills, stats, individual awards, and Cups are there, but that is somewhat tarnished by his money hungry attitude and him leaving Detroit for Anaheim in the off-season right after the first round upset sweep. I dunno if Wings brass would bother with it at this point.

 

Had Lidstrom scored on Fleury in the final moments of gm.7, and then we go to OT and and win, even if Osgood doesnt make another save, he becomes a 3 time cup winner (as a starter) and likely a conn smythe winner. 

I think without a doubt in this scenario he goes up. The fact that he could have none nothing else in that game, and it would have been his definitive moment IMO speaks volumes as to why he should go up. Hopefully he makes the HHOF first, as that is a must.

 

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3 hours ago, kickazz said:

Whoever Zetterberg likes, I like. So yeah I like Franzen even though I tease CRL there.

I don't think Franzen will suffer from those issues. Most people who suffer from concussions don't end up becoming suicidal, or killers. There's a few that do but it's pretty rare.

It's a little blown out of proportion because it's a terrible thing that can happen and we've only now been learning about it thru research but I believe that chances are very low. I could be wrong and 10 years from now Franzen end up being one of the unlucky ones and starts getting some symptoms.

But to get a number out of circulation for concussions would be way too lenient. There's no way I would put what happened to Franzen at the level of what happened to Vladdy. It's just not even close. 

Maybe there's something else that could be done. Fischer got a pretty nice job with the Wings management. Franzen should get some sort of recognition as well. 

I hope you're right. I just remember reading articles about what he was experiencing like these:

https://deadspin.com/johan-franzens-brain-is-not-healthy-1698244079

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/04/latest_concussion_makes_red_wi.html

I am certainly not a neurologist and i am no expert on CTE or concussions, but the fact that this was over 2 years ago now and he isn't back to playing makes me think he has some degree of permanent brain damage. That's scary. Maybe it never progresses to the level of some others ( I hope not). I haven't read anything more recently about how he is doing tho. Maybe the symptoms have subsided? IDK. I just hope for the best for him.

3 hours ago, kickazz said:

You were here before then aye? So what's your real identity? 

Ask my friend Miranda.

Edited by Neomaxizoomdweebie

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11 minutes ago, kliq said:

Had Lidstrom scored on Fleury in the final moments of gm.7, and then we go to OT and and win, even if Osgood doesnt make another save, he becomes a 3 time cup winner (as a starter) and likely a conn smythe winner. 

I think without a doubt in this scenario he goes up. The fact that he could have none nothing else in that game, and it would have been his definitive moment IMO speaks volumes as to why he should go up. Hopefully he makes the HHOF first, as that is a must.

 

Yep. After that playoff run, he deserved that Cup and I agree he would have won the Smythe. Sucks how one game changes things so much. He gave the team every chance to win. He should get in the HHOF no problem. There are much less deserving guys in there. Sawchuk is the only goalie with his number in the rafters, and if you look at all time playoff stats, Osgood shares the whole column with him besides two spots GAA (Smith) and sv% (Joseph). Time to put another goalie up, and it’s clear who it should be.

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8 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I agree with everyone here. 93 not only should be out of circulation,  but it appears it already is. Super classy of the Red Wings to do that.

It would be ironic if Todd Bertuzzi’s nephew ended up taking the number. Steve Moore, Franzen, etc.

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13 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I hope you're right. I just remember reading articles about what he was experiencing like these:

https://deadspin.com/johan-franzens-brain-is-not-healthy-1698244079

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/04/latest_concussion_makes_red_wi.html

I am certainly not a neurologist and i am no expert on CTE or concussions, but the fact that this was over 2 years ago now and he isn't back to playing makes me think he has some degree of permanent brain damage. That's scary. Maybe it never progresses to the level of some others ( I hope not). I haven't read anything more recently about how he is doing tho. Maybe the symptoms have subsided? IDK. I just hope for the best for him.

Ask my friend Miranda.

Since those articles came out:

Rk9ny1O.jpg

former-defenseman-vladimir-konstantinov-

Pretty big difference between the two. 

I'm no Franzen hater. I just don't think anyone's injury is comparable to Konstantinov and shouldn't be put at that level. 

So let me ask you this, if we do take Franzen's number out of circulation, shouldn't we take out Proberts too? Probert was proven to have CTE. Franzen hasn't been diagnosed with CTE. And if we do, that just opens more doors. For example Salei (I mean the guy died..) and Fischer. 

Edited by kickazz

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't think anyone was actually serious about taking #93 out of circulation... Were they?...

I’m neutral. I think players will stay away from it though, regardless. At least until the old guard has retired or moved on.

100% serious about #90 though. It’s cursed.

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