Ken Holland's Achievements

[kliq 3,763]

12 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Hasek traded himself to Detroit just like Hossa's agent called Holland and asked for a contract. Elite players are easy to get if they voluntarily call you and say they want in.

UFA signings maybe, not trades.

10 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

It was widely reported at the time. Not being able to find that info this many years later doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

I never said it didnt happen, I simply asked for some type of proof. I'm not going to believe something just because it was said on a message board. Come on Dickie, take off those rose colored glasses now. 

[chaps80 1,591]

3 minutes ago, bringbackfontez said:

"Used Illitch's cash"
"Gave Scotty what he wanted"
"Inherited the '97 team"

So basically, what many people are saying, is that there was no possible way Ken Holland could've received any credit for any team success during his tenure. So how do other GM's do it? Spend their own money? Refuse to discuss and consult with their coaches on current And future strategy/roster moves? It's nothing more than a loaded argument to place exclusive blame on KH for the current situation. Maybe he was too focused on the streak. He probably should've started the rebuild sooner. But to exclude him from any credit at all for at least 2 of the 4 cups is kinda ridiculous. Not many NHL teams have won 20% of the Stanley Cup s in a 20 year span.


Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
 

He deserves zero credit for '97. Made very minor moves in '98 besides trading Vernon and promoting Osgood because the meat of '98 roster was intact. '02 you can argue some but there were other factors at play. '08 you have to give credit for, like rejuvenating Osgood's career and calling Hasek out of retirement, reuniting McCarty with the rest of the Grind Line, getting Dallas Drake to come back to Detroit for one last crack at a Cup, signing Rafalski to play with Lidstrom, etc.

Since the 2009 Finals loss though, it's slowly gone downhill. Him not being prepared for elite players retiring, and unable to attract elite UFAs to replace them. Panicking and signing lesser player to contracts involving too much term, NTC's, and too much money. Or, simply not being able to deal with the results of years under the cap when trouble eventually hit, then hit harder. He needs to change how he does things. Other GMs have adapted, he hasn't.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I never said it didnt happen, I simply asked for some type of proof. I'm not going to believe something just because it was said on a message board. Come on Dickie, take off those rose colored glasses now. 

It did. Everyone who paid attention to the team at the time knew about it. It was talked about in all the media. The archives aren't all that great is all.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[chaps80 1,591]

5 minutes ago, kliq said:

UFA signings maybe, not trades.

 

One was a trade, one was UFA. Hasek wanted out and wanted to go to Detroit to win a Cup after carrying an inferior team for years with no results. Holland was contacted and obviously jumped at it. Sucked that Osgood was odd man out and put on waivers, but that was fixed later.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

He deserves zero credit for '97. Made very minor moves in '98 besides trading Vernon and promoting Osgood because the meat of '98 roster was intact. '02 you can argue some but there were other factors at play. '08 you have to give credit for, like rejuvenating Osgood's career and calling Hasek out of retirement, reuniting McCarty with the rest of the Grind Line, getting Dallas Drake to come back to Detroit for one last crack at a Cup, signing Rafalski to play with Lidstrom, etc.
Since the 2009 Finals loss though, it's slowly gone downhill. Him not being prepared for elite players retiring, and unable to attract elite UFAs to replace them. Panicking and signing lesser player to contracts involving too much term, NTC's, and too much money. Or, simply not being able to deal with the results of years under the cap when trouble eventually hit, then hit harder. He needs to change how he does things. Other GMs have adapted, he hasn't.

Holland gets no/little credit because he wasn't GM. Andersson, Nill, and Yzerman get a lot of credit even though they weren't GM.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[kliq 3,763]

2 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

He deserves zero credit for '97. Made very minor moves in '98 besides trading Vernon and promoting Osgood because the meat of '98 roster was intact. '02 you can argue some but there were other factors at play. '08 you have to give credit for, like rejuvenating Osgood's career and calling Hasek out of retirement, reuniting McCarty with the rest of the Grind Line, getting Dallas Drake to come back to Detroit for one last crack at a Cup, signing Rafalski to play with Lidstrom, etc.

Since the 2009 Finals loss though, it's slowly gone downhill. Him not being prepared for elite players retiring, and unable to attract elite UFAs to replace them. Panicking and signing lesser player to contracts involving too much term, NTC's, and too much money. Or, simply not being able to deal with the results of years under the cap when trouble eventually hit, then hit harder. He needs to change how he does things. Other GMs have adapted, he hasn't.

What about his role in scouting? If Nill, Yzerman, and Andersson get credit for the Wings in '08, why does Holland get ZERO for '97?

[bringbackfontez 36]

He deserves zero credit for '97. Made very minor moves in '98 besides trading Vernon and promoting Osgood because the meat of '98 roster was intact. '02 you can argue some but there were other factors at play. '08 you have to give credit for, like rejuvenating Osgood's career and calling Hasek out of retirement, reuniting McCarty with the rest of the Grind Line, getting Dallas Drake to come back to Detroit for one last crack at a Cup, signing Rafalski to play with Lidstrom, etc.
Since the 2009 Finals loss though, it's slowly gone downhill. Him not being prepared for elite players retiring, and unable to attract elite UFAs to replace them. Panicking and signing lesser player to contracts involving too much term, NTC's, and too much money. Or, simply not being able to deal with the results of years under the cap when trouble eventually hit, then hit harder. He needs to change how he does things. Other GMs have adapted, he hasn't.

I don't disagree that the last 8 years have been little more than a straight and narrow focus on a meaningless streak. And I also feel as though a front office shakeup could certainly do some good for this franchise. But I also feel as though some people are going way out of their way to place unwarranted blame.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[kliq 3,763]

1 minute ago, DickieDunn said:

Holland gets no/little credit because he wasn't GM. Andersson, Nill, and Yzerman get a lot of credit even though they weren't GM.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

lol, I did not see your post when I wrote what I just wrote.

[chaps80 1,591]

14 minutes ago, kliq said:

What about his role in scouting? If Nill, Yzerman, and Andersson get credit for the Wings in '08, why does Holland get ZERO for '97?

I mean zero at the GM position. He didn't have any final say on who made that roster.

[kliq 3,763]

3 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

It did. Everyone who paid attention to the team at the time knew about it. It was talked about in all the media. The archives aren't all that great is all.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

I did pay attention to the team at the time but I honestly never heard about it. With that being said, I live in Windsor not Detroit. Maybe it was more so reported locally.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

He was a scout for 5 years and director of scouting for 7 prior to 97. 12 years total. Holland helped build the 97 team fersure. He deserves some cred.

And people act like Bowman literally did everything for the team. Then why was Holland even employed? Even if Bowman literally had final say on EVERYTHING, you think hes dumb enough to not listen to those around him? I bet you also think your favorite pop song was 100% just the artist who sang it. Get real. 

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, bringbackfontez said:

"Used Illitch's cash"
"Gave Scotty what he wanted"
"Inherited the '97 team"

So basically, what many people are saying, is that there was no possible way Ken Holland could've received any credit for any team success during his tenure. So how do other GM's do it? Spend their own money? Refuse to discuss and consult with their coaches on current And future strategy/roster moves? It's nothing more than a loaded argument to place exclusive blame on KH for the current situation. Maybe he was too focused on the streak. He probably should've started the rebuild sooner. But to exclude him from any credit at all for at least 2 of the 4 cups is kinda ridiculous. Not many NHL teams have won 20% of the Stanley Cup s in a 20 year span.


Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
 

The bold premise is basically what I said in my sarcastic post above. Simply and solidly put. Thanks. People will say whatever they want to hate on the guy.

I mean I'm on the boat that its time to split ways with Holland (once his contract expires in 2018) and get a fresh new look in the franchise, but to discredit the guy and come up with lame arguments is just ridiculous and can be applied to almost any GM in the league. 

Ultimately the GMs job is to pitch in for deals and agree to what players want (by that I mean meet halfway). If player A wanted to come to Detroit, it's upto Holland to make it happen. Not the other way around. 

1 hour ago, chaps80 said:

He deserves zero credit for '97.

Then  by your logic, Hakan Andersson and his scouts get zero credit for 97, 98, 2002 and 2008. 

Who is this Hakan Andersson guy anyway? A nobody. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by kickazz

[chaps80 1,591]

3 minutes ago, kickazz said:

 

Then  by your logic, Hakan Andersson and his scouts get zero credit for 97, 98, 2002 and 2008. 

Who is this Hakan Andersson guy anyway? A nobody. 

Zero as GM. Scouting, sure why not.

[kickazz 5,459]

3 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

Zero as GM. Scouting, sure why not.

Phenomenal scouting seeing as though a lot of our 90s roster ended up in the Hall of Fame. He climbed up the success ladder and ended up where he is for a reason. 

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by kickazz

[chaps80 1,591]

1 minute ago, kickazz said:

Phenomenal scouting seeing as though a lot of our 90s roster ended up in the Hall of Fame. He climbed up the success ladder and ended up where he is for a reason. 

 

He did. And then overstayed his welcome. There does come a time. Wouldn't even move up and let the guy who led the team in the dressing room and on the ice to all of the success and the rings he owns take over. And while Holland's current roster is a mess, Yzerman's is a yearly contender. Nill's isn't doing too bad since he got there either. Got Seguin for Eriksson, Spezza for next to nothing, Sharp for Daley, Niemi for a 7th. Got two prospects and a 2nd from Holland for a half month of Cole, who was one good hit away from retirement. That's two potential good new GMs Detroit had in house that they let go because Holland was stubborn.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

28 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

He did. And then overstayed his welcome. There does come a time. Wouldn't even move up and let the guy who led the team in the dressing room and on the ice to all of the success and the rings he owns take over. And while Holland's current roster is a mess, Yzerman's is a yearly contender. Nill's isn't doing too bad since he got there either. Got Seguin for Eriksson, Spezza for next to nothing, Sharp for Daley, Niemi for a 7th. Got two prospects and a 2nd from Holland for a half month of Cole, who was one good hit away from retirement. That's two potential good new GMs Detroit had in house that they let go because Holland was stubborn.

Except no ones arguing against anything u just said. Im pretty sure Kick and I both agree with everything u just said. We're not Holland slappies for the sake of it. Just saying the man deserves credit for his career. All the good AND all the bad. People around wanna act like 85 to 2003 he did nothing.

Edited December 27, 2016 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

9 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

so Bowman could focus on coaching and things like painting locker rooms and complaining about short benches. 

My family was literally talking about this xmas eve. My cousin was complaining about some of the opposing high school basketball teams and someone threw out a "paint the visitor's locker room" comment. Good times. Say what you want about Scotty, but he is an amazing hockey strategist. 

In regard to Holland, I think the truth lies somewhere in between all of our histrionics--I think he deserves more credit than the naysayers are willing to give and far less than the apologists heap. I think he played an important part in an organization that, at one time, Had It All Figured Out (tm). I also think that hard times have exposed some serious chinks in his armor (is chinks going to get censored? Ay Caramba), and while I clung to the sinking Holland ship for a long time, I will reluctantly admit that it may be time for a change. Problem is--who is better than Holland right now *that we could actually get*?  Bottom line, failures now shouldn't invalidate the successes Holland had with this team in the past. On the same token, success should in no way give him a free pass out of the Sucksville Station at which we seem to be broken down. Someone needs to quickly hoof it down to the next stop and pick up that spark plug from the sketchy bump shop so we can get back on our way. :/ 

[Dominator2005 558]

3 hours ago, kliq said:

1) Rumblings stated that Trouba wanted to come here, I dont see him wearing a Wings jersey. My point is that a player can want to go to any team, but a GM is the one that needs to trade for him.

2) I don't understand your point. Hen Holland wanted Luc Robitaille so therefore it doesn't count?

3) Again, Holland is the one who signed Hull and traded for Chelios. As far as them restructuring their contracts, link? I was not aware of this. I googled it and nothing came up.

http://www.thesportster.com/hockey/members-of-the-legendary-2001-02-detroit-red-wings-where-are-they-now/

 

Keep googling - you will find better input if you try harder. If you want to argue over KH capacities then you should have a better follow up on DRW. 

 

Find a video when they have traded Avery and Kuznetsov for Schneider where you can see exactly who was making the calls (Bowman). Compare KH records once that Bowman left DRW organisation and KH became an architect of this team... 

 

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, BottleOfSmoke said:

My family was literally talking about this xmas eve. My cousin was complaining about some of the opposing high school basketball teams and someone threw out a "paint the visitor's locker room" comment. Good times. Say what you want about Scotty, but he is an amazing hockey strategist. 

In regard to Holland, I think the truth lies somewhere in between all of our histrionics--I think he deserves more credit than the naysayers are willing to give and far less than the apologists heap. I think he played an important part in an organization that, at one time, Had It All Figured Out (tm). I also think that hard times have exposed some serious chinks in his armor (is chinks going to get censored? Ay Caramba), and while I clung to the sinking Holland ship for a long time, I will reluctantly admit that it may be time for a change. Problem is--who is better than Holland right now *that we could actually get*?  Bottom line, failures now shouldn't invalidate the successes Holland had with this team in the past. On the same token, success should in no way give him a free pass out of the Sucksville Station at which we seem to be broken down. Someone needs to quickly hoof it down to the next stop and pick up that spark plug from the sketchy bump shop so we can get back on our way. :/ 

Right. Im a bit on the fence about what to do after this season. Many want Holland to be fired (probs mostly the same crowd that have wanted him gone for 6 years now) but i think you at least give him the chance to navigate a rebuild for the first time ever and then force him into retirement in 2018 with honor when his contract expires if he refuses to do that or is unsuccessful rebuilding. I still believe this is a team that could retool and hit the post season again in the 17-18 season if neceassary changes are made. A full rebuild may still be unnecessary. Interesting times. 

[Dominator2005 558]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Right. Im a bit on the fence about what to do after this season. Many want Holland to be fired (probs mostly the same crowd that have wanted him gone for 6 years now) but i think you at least give him the chance to navigate a rebuild for the first time ever and then force him into retirement in 2018 with honor when his contract expires if he refuses to do that or is unsuccessful rebuilding. I still believe this is a team that could retool and hit the post season again in the 17-18 season if neceassary changes are made. A full rebuild may still be unnecessary. Interesting times. 

He can't rebuild as he's way to emotionally attached to his players... and majority of them are signed on a bad long-term contracts. If rebuild is what you are looking for than KH can't be the answer as he has gave all those silly contracts... 

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

i think you at least give him the chance to navigate a rebuild for the first time ever and then force him into retirement in 2018 with honor when his contract expires if he refuses to do that or is unsuccessful rebuilding.

This

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, Dominator2005 said:

He can't rebuild as he's way to emotionally attached to his players... and majority of them are signed on a bad long-term contracts. If rebuild is what you are looking for than KH can't be the answer as he has gave all those silly contracts... 

And thats why i can see firing him. Hes handed out the contracts and NTCs that will make a rebuild very difficult for any GM. If starting fresh is a must i will understand. But also understand this may be his FIRST losing season ever. Would be a shame not to give a legendary GM a shot at navigating that. Weve never seen him do it. Maybe hed be good at it. No one knows.

[kliq 3,763]

12 minutes ago, Dominator2005 said:

http://www.thesportster.com/hockey/members-of-the-legendary-2001-02-detroit-red-wings-where-are-they-now/

Keep googling - you will find better input if you try harder. If you want to argue over KH capacities then you should have a better follow up on DRW. 

Find a video when they have traded Avery and Kuznetsov for Schneider where you can see exactly who was making the calls (Bowman). Compare KH records once that Bowman left DRW organisation and KH became an architect of this team... 

No need to troll man, I just asked for a source.

I'm pretty sure it was Holland who made the Schnieder trade. I can remember watching the documentary that was done on the Wings that year and I'm pretty sure he made the trade on camera.

[Dominator2005 558]

6 minutes ago, kliq said:

No need to troll man, I just asked for a source.

I'm pretty sure it was Holland who made the Schnieder trade. I can remember watching the documentary that was done on the Wings that year and I'm pretty sure he made the trade on camera.

Well find it and you will see that Bowman wanted Schneider (or Brisebois) and KH wanted to keep Avery. It's been a while but ultimate decision was made by Bowman. That was KH strength to have right people around him, he was a Bowman's "yes-man".

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

And just for the record, i wanted Yzerman to have Kens job back when. But it is what it is. Not sure whod we replace Holland with now which is scary.