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2018 Prospect Tournament and Training Camp

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1 hour ago, Buppy said:

Yeah, I get what you're saying and again, I don't disagree. But what I was saying is that the whole "wasting talent" thing is a poor argument, because you're always wasting someone's talent. Move Mantha out to the wing, you're taking that spot away from someone else. Someone else with talent. Focusing on "how do we maximize the use of Mantha's talent" is too myopic. The question should be how to best arrange the talent to maximize the team. 

It's not that I think Mantha can or should only play net-front, or even that he's better at it than he could be on the outside. It's that I think net-front-Mantha is a bigger upgrade over Abby/Bertuzzi than outside-Mantha would be over AA/whichever winger. 

 

To a point. Roles are thing, and they matter, but this does raise the point that we're oversimplifying to some degree.

Untitled.jpg.196b2a6d9fd5f43d8695390feda53abd.jpg

That's Mantha's PP shot map from last year. So even playing net-front his other talents aren't wholly "wasted".

 

I see what you're saying.  We definitely don't want Abby playing along the boards on the pp like Z, Larkin, or Nyquist.  He's a net front guy only kinda player.  Mantha's tool bag is a little bigger than that, tho.

 

Can you post Abbys shot map too?  That's super interesting.

Edited by Jonas Mahonas

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16 hours ago, Buppy said:

You're the one who flipped my "Abby and two kids..." comment around and applied it to the other forwards. At least now you admit it was a very stupid thing for you to do. Good.

And I specifically said I thought you would want Zadina on the PP. Your list of wingers was "Nyquist, Vanek, Mantha," then "AA/Zadina/Frk". Three players for that one spot. I was saying that Zadina, if he's on the team, is more of a "comma" than a "slash". So if we have four (or five if you include Frk) wingers you think are good enough, why do you think we have such a desperate need for Mantha in that spot?

And if you don't want to discuss your opinions, don't post them on the internet. Don't try to act like I'm the only one arguing. Every post I make, you respond.

I "flipped your Abby and two kids comment" because you were attempting to downplay the need for shooters (and still are), and make it seem like we have all these unproven net front guys, when you listed just as many unproven shooters...

Yes, my list of shooters would be Nyquist, Vanek, Mantha and one of Athanasiou, Zadina or Frk. If Zadina proves to be the sniper he's expected to be, the spot is his. If not, I'd give it to Athanasiou. Frk won't be a regular this season, unless injuries hit, and if / when that happens, I'd give him a look as well.

I don't think there's a "desperate need for Mantha to be in that spot", I just think it would be smart to at least try him there. In my opinion, he's our best shooter, and like has been mentioned, our power-play has been awful, so why not experiment with it?

I have no problem discussing opinions, but when you constantly try to put words in my mouth or change the topic, it gets a little annoying...

Anyway, I'm done with this. I'm hoping with the addition of Rasmussen and Bylsam, Mantha will at least get a look on the right side of the ice.

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The PP will be overhauled so Mantha’s position may change. But as far as 5 on 5 play goes I don’t think Mantha is forced to play a net front role by Blashill. It may just seem like that because that’s where he scores the majority of his goals. And has anyone ever though maybe that Mantha likes to play around the net?

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I don't really understand this line of thinking.   Tons of skilled player,  most more skilled than Mantha, see regular or exclusive net front time on the PP.   Off the top of my head,  Benn,  Perry,  Pacioretty,  Wheeler,  Backes, Kreider, JVR,  and Simmonds are all highly skilled players who also play in front of the net.   So maybe there's something to it and it's not that Blashill is "wasting" a skill player.   Maybe it's actually preferable to have a skilled guy there. 

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15 hours ago, Buppy said:

Yeah, I get what you're saying and again, I don't disagree. But what I was saying is that the whole "wasting talent" thing is a poor argument, because you're always wasting someone's talent. Move Mantha out to the wing, you're taking that spot away from someone else. Someone else with talent. Focusing on "how do we maximize the use of Mantha's talent" is too myopic. The question should be how to best arrange the talent to maximize the team. 

It's not that I think Mantha can or should only play net-front, or even that he's better at it than he could be on the outside. It's that I think net-front-Mantha is a bigger upgrade over Abby/Bertuzzi than outside-Mantha would be over AA/whichever winger. 

 

To a point. Roles are thing, and they matter, but this does raise the point that we're oversimplifying to some degree.

Untitled.jpg.196b2a6d9fd5f43d8695390feda53abd.jpg

That's Mantha's PP shot map from last year. So even playing net-front his other talents aren't wholly "wasted".

 

And I agree with you, moving Mantha to the outside probably puts him in Nyquist's spot. Then where does Nyquist go? It's all a puzzle, and yes we have to make those puzzle pieces fit to the most benefit of the team. I think everyone is on board with that. Maybe the best setup is Mantha in front of the net full time, maybe it's not. I could see either way at this point. I think the PP needs lots of shuffling and experimentation. I know I'd definitely like to see Ras playing net front on the PP at some point this season, even if it's on the 2nd unit.

I definitely agree that Mantha is an upgrade in front of the net than Abby or Bertuzzi (probably). Is it more of an upgrade than Mantha at wing? I don't know really, which is kinda why I'd like to see Mantha play there for a few PPs.

Again, I think the darkhorse in all of this is Rasmussen. He's been advertised to us as great all-around player who likes to play in front of the net, kinda like Getzlaf, Pacioretty, etc. as Kip mentioned. If this is true maybe he ends up as a better net front guy than Mantha and displaces him there? Will be interesting to see what Byslma does this year, he is a pretty good PP coach in my mind.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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46 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't really understand this line of thinking.   Tons of skilled player,  most more skilled than Mantha, see regular or exclusive net front time on the PP.   Off the top of my head,  Benn,  Perry,  Pacioretty,  Wheeler,  Backes, Kreider, JVR,  and Simmonds are all highly skilled players who also play in front of the net.   So maybe there's something to it and it's not that Blashill is "wasting" a skill player.   Maybe it's actually preferable to have a skilled guy there. 

Again, I don't think anyone claims Blashill is wasting Mantha, just that he may have that tools to also excel in another role, especially with guys like Rasmussen joining the team who play similar net-front roles as Mantha does now.

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1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Again, I think the darkhorse in all of this is Rasmussen. He's been advertised to us as great all-around player who likes to play in front of the net, kinda like Getzlaf, Pacioretty, etc. as Kip mentioned. If this is true maybe he ends up as a better net front guy than Mantha and displaces him there? Will be interesting to see what Byslma does this year, he is a pretty good PP coach in my mind.

Wouldn't surprise me if Rasmussen's in front of the net on the first PP unit on opening night. That's one of the reasons why I'm thinking Mantha could -- and maybe should -- be moved to the wall or the high slot on the first unit.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/wings-blashill-its-a-wide-open-roster-more-than-ever-before/c-298952646

"Rasmussen, to me, when I went out and watched him, if he does what I think he can do and that's make our hockey team, he's got a real chance to make our power play better," Blashill said. "He's an excellent, and I mean excellent, net-front presence guy with his ability to tip pucks, his ability to score in tight areas, so we should be excited about that. He wants to do that, that's where he wants to be.

That's pretty high praise for a teenager who's never played a single game of pro hockey. Clearly he has big plans for the big guy.

Edited by Dabura

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3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Wouldn't surprise me if Rasmussen's in front of the net on the first PP unit on opening night. That's one of the reasons why I'm thinking Mantha could -- and maybe should -- be moved to the wall or the high slot on the first unit.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/wings-blashill-its-a-wide-open-roster-more-than-ever-before/c-298952646

"Rasmussen, to me, when I went out and watched him, if he does what I think he can do and that's make our hockey team, he's got a real chance to make our power play better," Blashill said. "He's an excellent, and I mean excellent, net-front presence guy with his ability to tip pucks, his ability to score in tight areas, so we should be excited about that. He wants to do that, that's where he wants to be.

That's pretty high praise for a teenager who's never played a single game of pro hockey. Clearly he has big plans for the big guy.

Exactly my thinking. Couple that with Mantha being more of a playmaker on the PP throughout his career, and I think you have enough logic to justify moving Mantha to the wall or top circle. Again, not a must, just an idea.

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Rasmussen
Larkin  Nyquist  Mantha
Green

Vanek
Nielsen  Athanasiou  Zadina
Hronek

I'd be cool with giving that a try. But, yeah, I think everyone here can agree that we have a lot of different options and there's probably going to be some trial and error tweaking over the course of the season.

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2 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Rasmussen
Larkin  Nyquist  Mantha
Green

Vanek
Nielsen  Athanasiou  Zadina
Hronek

I'd be cool with giving that a try. But, yeah, I think everyone here can agree that we have a lot of different options and there's probably going to be some trial and error tweaking over the course of the season.

I like dat setup, I'd go with this opening day:

Mantha
Vanek  Larkin  Zadina
Green

Rasmussen
Frk  Athanasiou  Nyquist
Hronek

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1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Rasmussen
Larkin  Nyquist  Mantha
Green

Vanek
Nielsen  Athanasiou  Zadina
Hronek

I'd be cool with giving that a try. But, yeah, I think everyone here can agree that we have a lot of different options and there's probably going to be some trial and error tweaking over the course of the season.

I'd like to see...

Rasmussen

Vanek - Larkin - Mantha

Green

Berruzzi

Nyquist - Nielsen - Zadina

Hronek

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7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Again, I don't think anyone claims Blashill is wasting Mantha, just that he may have that tools to also excel in another role, especially with guys like Rasmussen joining the team who play similar net-front roles as Mantha does now.

At least two of you think that...because you said so explicitly.

On 8/16/2018 at 7:41 AM, krsmith17 said:

None of this makes any sense whatsoever... Where did I say that Nyquist, Vanek, Nielsen or Zetterberg are equitant to Abby? I didn't. Where did I say I'd rather have Abby on the power-play over Zadina? I didn't. Same ol' Buppy. Can't win an argument so start trying to force false narratives. You do it every f***ing time. You either try to put words in my mouth (see above), or spin the argument into something completely irrelevant to the main point. Main point - where Mantha should play on the power-play. What you focus on - everything else... I think Mantha should play up high on the power-play to better utilize his shot, and I think it's a waste of his talent to strictly play him down low / in front of the net. You disagree, which I'm fine with. But you have to spend hours / pages trying to prove why my opinion is wrong... It's absurd.

Like here. 

On 8/16/2018 at 11:11 AM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think a key point to the Net-Front/Outside-Shooter debate, and disagree with me if I'm wrong, is that there's a much lower threshold of talent needed to be a net-front guy. I say talent in the traditional sense (passing/skating/shooting/dangles/hockeyIQ). Look at Holmstrom and Abby. Not the most talented players of all time by any means. Probably both bottom 6ers if not utilized in niche roles.

Talent for the net-front role is different. As a net front guy you just gotta preferably be on the larger side, strong, aggressive or at least willing to take abuse, and hopefully have some hand-eye coordination to get your blade on a flying puck once in awhile. These players are a lot more easy to come by than top flight talented players, and the role is easier to fill.

In that sense I think it can feel like Mantha's talent is being wasted as the net front-guy. Especially if you have a high opinion of his other talents. There's an argument to be made that you should move the talented guy to the outside where he can snipe/skate/play-make, and insert an Abdlkader/Bertuzzi/Rasmussen/Smith type player down low instead. And that argument is helped by the fact that Rasmussen, a very talented player who's made his home in front of the net, is likely entering the team.

Like Dabura said, our PP blows chunks right now, therefore I'm all open to experimentation. I'd love to see Mantha forced to play a variety of roles on the PP.

And here.

Edited by kipwinger

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24 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

At least two of you think that...because you said so explicitly.

Like here. 

And here.

"In that sense I think it can feel like Mantha's talent is being wasted as the net front-guy."

You're really going to extrapolate from that, that my opinion is Mantha is being wasted in front of the net...?

You're reaching awfully far. In the very same post I state my opinion, which is that I'm open to playing Mantha in a variety of roles.

You're awfully desperate to misconstrue my POV and shoot me down. It's bizarre really. You know what my opinion is on Mantha, I've stated it numerous times throughout this thread. Why don't you comment on that?

I'll let KrSmith speak for himself.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

"In that sense I think it can feel like Mantha's talent is being wasted as the net front-guy."

Your really going to extrapolate from that, that my opinion is Mantha is being wasted in front of the net...?

You're reaching awfully far. In the very same post I state my opinion, which is that I'm open to playing Mantha in a variety of roles.

You're awfully desperate to put words in my mouth to try and shoot me down. It's bizarre. You know what my opinion is on Mantha, I've stated it numerous times throughout this thread. Why don't you comment on that?

I'll let KrSmith speak for himself.

  What a goof I am for assuming you "thought" his talent was being wasted when in reality you "think it feels" like his talent is being wasted.  It was a real stretch on my part.

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32 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

  What a goof I am for assuming you "thought" his talent was being wasted when in reality you "think it feels" like his talent is being wasted.  It was a real stretch on my part.

You are correct. Big stretch. There's a rather large difference between "I think Mantha's talents are being wasted" and explaining why one thinks it can feel like Mantha's talents are being wasted. The latter implies Mantha's talents aren't being wasted at all.

You're smarter than this.

 

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You are correct. Big stretch. There's a rather large difference between "I think Mantha's talents are being wasted" and explaining why one thinks it can feel like Mantha's are being wasted. The former implies Mantha's talents aren't being wasted at all.

You're smarter than this.

 

 My bad, I was genuinely confused and so I misread your position on this.  All this time you were saying that A) there's nothing wrong with Mantha's deployment on the powerplay, B) he's successful at it, C) his talent isn't wasted, and D) you're fine with that? 

Ok then, I agree.

Edit:  Also, I think you're getting former and latter mixed up in the post above. 

Edited by kipwinger

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5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 My bad, I was genuinely confused and so I misread your position on this.  All this time you were saying that A) there's nothing wrong with Mantha's deployment on the powerplay, B) he's successful at it, C) his talent isn't wasted, and D) you're fine with that? 

Ok then, I agree.

Edit:  Also, I think you're getting former and latter mixed up in the post above. 

I had a couple missing words too. Think I fixed them all now.

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