Top 50 NHL Prospects

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ekblad isn't good now...? News to me

Anyway, Ekblad definitely was not as hyped to the level of Dahlin. If that's your angle, you've been asleep at the wheel.

He's not nearly as good as he was hyped.  And he was HYPED.  Only the second player ever granted exceptional status, and the first defenseman.  You think he wasn't?  Lol.  Short memory.  Like I said, recency bias.  Doesn't matter, by the time everyone figures out that Dahlin is only as good as Roman Josi they'll be on to some other teenage "phenom". 

[Dabura 12,207]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

He's not nearly as good as he was hyped.  And he was HYPED.  Only the second player ever granted exceptional status, and the first defenseman.  You think he wasn't?  Lol.  Short memory.  Like I said, recency bias.  Doesn't matter, by the time everyone figures out that Dahlin is only as good as Roman Josi they'll be on to some other teenage "phenom". 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

He's not nearly as good as he was hyped.  And he was HYPED.  Only the second player ever granted exceptional status, and the first defenseman.  You think he wasn't?  Lol.  Short memory.  Like I said, recency bias.  Doesn't matter, by the time everyone figures out that Dahlin is only as good as Roman Josi they'll be on to some other teenage "phenom". 

I'm not at all insinuating Ekblad wasn't hyped... he wasn't nearly hyped to the level of Rasmus Dahlin though. Even casual fans can discern that.

Exceptional status? Joe Veleno received the same honors. Do you consider him hyped to the same level as Dahlin?

I wish you all the best luck on this one brother. I'll happily bet on Dahlin.

BTW I think Ekblad is an exceptional Dman.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'm not at all insinuating Ekblad wasn't hyped... he wasn't nearly hyped to the level of Rasmus Dahlin though. Even casual fans can discern that.

Exceptional status? Joe Veleno received the same honors. Do you consider him hyped to the same level as Dahlin?

I wish you all the best luck on this one brother. I'll happily bet on Dahlin.

At the time the only other player who'd been granted exceptional status was Tavares.  So it wasn't readily understood to be the joke that it is.  But the fact that there's a thing called "exceptional status" and that unexceptional players get tagged with it is the very definition of hype.  For what it's worth he was also the OHL rookie of the year, took home all the top honors in the OHL coaches polls for defensemen,  and captained Team Canada to gold at the Hlinka tourney, all as an underager.  So yeah, he was a pretty big deal in his draft year. And yeah, he really hasn't lived up to it.

Dahlin will probably be a pretty good NHL defensemen, but he probably won't be the Connor McDavid of defensemen, which is how some folks have built him up around here.  I think there's every chance that two or three of the defensemen drafted in this year's class turn out to be as good or better than Dahlin does. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

At the time the only other player who'd been granted exceptional status was Tavares.  So it wasn't readily understood to be the joke that it is.  But the fact that there's a thing called "exceptional status" and that unexceptional players get tagged with it is the very definition of hype.  For what it's worth he was also the OHL rookie of the year, took home all the top honors in the OHL coaches polls for defensemen,  and captained Team Canada to gold at the Hlinka tourney, all as an underager.  So yeah, he was a pretty big deal in his draft year. And yeah, he really hasn't lived up to it.

Dahlin will probably be a pretty good NHL defensemen, but he probably won't be the Connor McDavid of defensemen, which is how some folks have built him up around here.  I think there's every chance that two or three of the defensemen drafted in this year's class turn out to be as good or better than Dahlin does. 

I'll say fair enough. There's no winning this argument on either end, it's all opinion. Time will tell.

My stance on Ekblad is I definitely have the opposite opinion. Not sure why you are trying to convince me he was hyped, I've explicitly agreed he was certainly hyped already. Deservedly so, he's a fantastic Dman... it seems your incorrectly equating exceptional CHL status with Dhalin hype. Probably why you're not answering my question on Veleno...

Like I opened with, we'll have to agree to disagree on Dahlin. I really think this one is gonna blow your old razor sharp socks off.

[kipwinger 8,524]

10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I'll say fair enough. There's no winning this argument on either end, it's all opinion. Time will tell.

My stance on Ekblad is I definitely have the opposite opinion. Not sure why you are trying to convince me he was hyped, I've explicitly agreed he was certainly hyped already. Deservedly so, he's a fantastic Dman... it seems your incorrectly equating exceptional CHL status with Dhalin hype. Probably why you're not answering my question on Veleno...

Like I opened with, we'll have to agree to disagree on Dahlin. I really think this one is gonna blow your old razor sharp socks off.

I did answer you question on Veleno by alluding to the fact that it's not really a valid argument because attitudes about "exceptional" players have changed since Ekblad's time.  Veleno is clearly not as hyped as Dahlin.  However, when Ekblad was drafted being an "exceptional status" player was considered a much bigger deal.  After Sean Day, and now Veleno, people realize that it's pretty bogus.  But the first three exceptional players were Tavares, Ekblad, and McDavid and all of them were MASSIVELY hyped. 

Every year since forever there's been some kid who's on another level.  Since 2000 I'd say only three players have actually turned out to be generational:  Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid.  Tons have turned out to be very good players: Kovalchuk, Nash, Stamkos, Hall, McKinnon, etc.  I think Dahlin is much more likely to be in the latter group than the former.

Edited August 8, 2018 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

I did answer you question on Veleno by alluding to the fact that it's not really a valid argument because attitudes about "exceptional" players have changed since Ekblad's time.  Veleno is clearly not as hyped as Dahlin.  However, when Ekblad was drafted being an "exceptional status" player was considered a much bigger deal.  After Sean Day, and now Veleno, people realize that it's pretty bogus.  But the first three exceptional players were Tavares, Ekblad, and McDavid and all of them were MASSIVELY hyped. 

Every year since forever there's been some kid who's on another level.  Since 2000 I'd say only three players have actually turned out to be generational:  Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid.  Tons have turned out to be very good players: Kovalchuk, Nash, Stamkos, Hall, McKinnon, etc.  I think Dahlin his much more likely to be in the latter group than the former.

Bold: Bingo, that's my point.

So you agree Ekblad wasn't as hyped as Dahlin, but you think Tavares, Ekblad, and McDavid recieved comparable hype? Do you see where the logic is breaking down?

Chances are you're right. He's not as good as Crosby, Ovehckin, McDavid. I humbly disagree, I think he's the most talented dman at his age that I've seen in my lifetime.

 

[kipwinger 8,524]

7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Bold: Bingo, that's my point.

So you agree Ekblad wasn't as hyped as Dahlin, but you think Tavares, Ekblad, and McDavid recieved comparable hype? Do you see where the logic is breaking down?

Chances are you're right. He's not as good as Crosby, Ovehckin, McDavid. I humbly disagree, I think he's the most talented dman at his age that I've seen in my lifetime.

 

No, I think Veleno wasn't as hyped as Dahlin.  I think Ekblad was.  I've also explained why I think so.  Very clearly.  Being excpetional status was a bigger deal a few years ago.  Hence, Ekblad being labeled exceptional carried more weight with it than Veleno's status did.  Veleno, along with Sean Day before him, is precisely why people don't think it's a big deal anymore.  At the time Ekblad was drafted it was still a VERY big deal to be "excpetional" in the OHL, particularly given that 6 of the previous 13 first overall draft picks before Ekblad came from the OHL while 7 came from the rest of the world combined. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

10 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

No, I think Veleno wasn't as hyped as Dahlin.  I think Ekblad was.  I've also explained why I think so.  Very clearly.  Being excpetional status was a bigger deal a few years ago.  Hence, Ekblad being labeled exceptional carried more weight with it than Veleno's status did.  Veleno, along with Sean Day before him, is precisely why people don't think it's a big deal anymore.  At the time Ekblad was drafted it was still a VERY big deal to be "excpetional" in the OHL, particularly given that 8 of the last 18 first overall draft picks came from the OHL while ten came from the rest of the world combined. 

So your argument is: Exceptional status CHL players used to be over-hyped, now they're not. Therefore Rasmus Dahlin is over-hyped?

Am I not following?

EDIT: You've now explicitly stated you don't believe Veleno or Ekblad were as hyped as Dahlin. So you agree with my original point, I just had to drag it out of you for some reason..

Edited August 8, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[kipwinger 8,524]

25 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So your argument is: Exceptional status CHL players used to be over-hyped, now they're not. Therefore Rasmus Dahlin is over-hyped?

Am I not following?

You're definitely not following.  My argument is that people are overly hyping Dahlin because they overhype just about every number one pick.  And that he'll most likely turn out just like other number one picks, good but not "generational" as he's being labeled.  I used Aaron Ekblad as an example of someone who also never lived up to the massive hype he had when he was drafted first overall.  And as evidence of that hype, I pointed out that Ekblad was only the second player to be given exceptional status in probably the world's best amateur hockey league.  A feat which was (at the time though not anymore) a really really big deal. 

But here's a simpler way of stating my argument:  Since the inception of the draft in the 1960's, only one defenseman drafted 1st overall has gone on to be a "generational" player.  Denis Potvin. Scores of forwards have though.  So if you're trying to figure out which "top of the draft" players are going to turn out to be the best (which is how this conversation started), it's always safer to go with a forward in lieu of any other information.  High end forwards are a surer bet. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by kipwinger

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You're definitely not following.  My argument is that people are overly hyping Dahlin because they overhype just about every number one pick.  And that he'll most likely turn out just like other number one picks, good but not "generational" as he's being labeled.  I used Aaron Ekblad as an example of someone who also never lived up to the massive hype he had when he was drafted first overall.  And as evidence of that hype, I pointed out that Ekblad was only the second player to be given exceptional status in probably the world's best amateur hockey league.  A feat which was (at the time though not anymore) a really really big deal. 

But here's a simpler way of stating my argument:  Since the inception of the draft in the 1960's, no defenseman drafted 1st overall has gone on to be a "generational" player.  Not one.  I don't think Dahlin will be any different.  Scores of forwards have though.  So if you're trying to figure out which "top of the draft" players are going to turn out to be the best, it's always safer to go with a forward in lieu of any other information.  High end forwards are a surer bet. 

Right: In your mind, the exceptional status players of Ekblads gen were over-hyped. I've digested that. Got it. I'm still trying to figure out how that makes Dahlin, a player who didn't even play in the CHL, over-hyped?

Now we're pivoting to #1 overall picked Dmen thou I see. That's fine. I think Ekblad has been a great #1 overall pick for the panthers and I think Dahlin will be an even better one for the Sabres.

Here's my question, was Ekblad as hyped as Dhalin?

Edited August 8, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Right: In your mind, the exceptional status players of Ekblads gen were over-hyped. I've digested that. Got it. I'm still trying to figure out how that makes Dahlin, a player who didn't even play in the CHL, over-hyped?

Now we're pivoting to #1 overall picked Dmen thou I see. That's fine. I think Ekblad has been a great #1 overall pick for the panthers and I think Dahlin will be an even better one for the Sabres.

We're not pivoting to anything.  The conversation started when I told KRSmith that it's not unreasonable to think that Pettersson and/or Svechnikov will turn out to be better players than Dahlin.  He disagreed because Dahlin is "generational" .  My argument is that he's not "generational".  That's all hype.  He's more likely to be an Ekblad than a McDavid. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

21 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

We're not pivoting to anything.  The conversation started when I told KRSmith that it's not unreasonable to think that Pettersson and/or Svechnikov will turn out to be better players than Dahlin.  He disagreed because Dahlin is "generational" .  My argument is that he's not "generational".  That's all hype.  He's more likely to be an Ekblad than a McDavid. 

No pivoting? You've managed to not answer the question at hand AGAIN....

You agree that Ekblad was not as hyped as Dahlin, yet express that Dahlin is overhyped just like Ekblad....

Because a #1 overall drafted Dman has never blow your mind, this one can't either.... poor logic to say the least.

Here's my question again, Was Ekblad as hyped as Dahlin??

Edited August 8, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, kipwinger said:

We're not pivoting to anything.  The conversation started when I told KRSmith that it's not unreasonable to think that Pettersson and/or Svechnikov will turn out to be better players than Dahlin.  He disagreed because Dahlin is "generational" .  My argument is that he's not "generational".  That's all hype.  He's more likely to be an Ekblad than a McDavid. 

Dahlin is generational. I get it. Every number one overall pick gets overhyped leading up to the draft these days. Hell, even the top 10 is beginning to be overhyped. But none of these players are being talked about as "generational", the same way McDavid was and Dahlin is now. Just because these players are being hyped, doesn't mean that none will live up to said hype. I think Dahlin will for sure.

How often have you seen any of these players play? I'll admit that I haven't seen any of them play much, other than World Juniors and extended highlights on each. So I only have that and scouting reports (aka hype) to base an opinion on. Maybe you've seen them all play a lot more, but if you haven't, what makes you think Dahlin is being "overhyped", and Svechnikov and Pettersson are being hyped just the right amount, or maybe even "underhyped"?...

You still didn't answer my original question... Dahlin was the undisputed number one leading up to the draft (for over a year). No one else was close, and that includes Svechnikov. So what makes you think that Svechnikov is all of a sudden a better prospect? No hockey has been played by either to increase / decrease their stock. What makes Svechnikov better now?

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

No pivoting? You've managed to not answer the question at hand AGAIN....

You agree that Ekblad was not as hyped as Dahlin, yet express that Dahlin is overhyped just like Ekblad....

Because a #1 overall drafted Dman has never blow your mind, this one can't either.... poor logic to say the least.

Here's my question again, Was Ekblad as hyped as Dahlin??

No, Ekblad wasn't as hyped as Dahlin. Not even close. I don't recall a single person ever claiming that Ekblad would be "generational". He wasn't considered to be pre-draft and he's not considered to be now. Still a very good number one defenseman that would still likely go number one overall in a re-draft. You might be able to make a case for Draisaitl. but I'd still give the edge to Ekblad.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Dahlin is generational. I get it. Every number one overall pick gets overhyped leading up to the draft these days. Hell, even the top 10 is beginning to be overhyped. But none of these players are being talked about as "generational", the same way McDavid was and Dahlin is now. Just because these players are being hyped, doesn't mean that none will live up to said hype. I think Dahlin will for sure.

How often have you seen any of these players play? I'll admit that I haven't seen any of them play much, other than World Juniors and extended highlights on each. So I only have that and scouting reports (aka hype) to base an opinion on. Maybe you've seen them all play a lot more, but if you haven't, what makes you think Dahlin is being "overhyped", and Svechnikov and Pettersson are being hyped just the right amount, or maybe even "underhyped"?...

You still didn't answer my original question... Dahlin was the undisputed number one leading up to the draft (for over a year). No one else was close, and that includes Svechnikov. So what makes you think that Svechnikov is all of a sudden a better prospect? No hockey has been played by either to increase / decrease their stock. What makes Svechnikov better now?

No, Ekblad wasn't as hyped as Dahlin. Not even close. I don't recall a single person ever claiming that Ekblad would be "generational". He wasn't considered to be pre-draft and he's not considered to be now. Still a very good number one defenseman that would still likely go number one overall in a re-draft. You might be able to make a case for Draisaitl. but I'd still give the edge to Ekblad.

Nailed it.

[toby91_ca 620]

My simple thought on Dahlin is "caution."  It is very hard to extrapolate a player's potential at 18 years old....it is even more difficult (much more difficult) to do so with a defenseman.

[solarion 118]

Agree. Dmen generally develop slower than forwards so it's more difficult to tell where they'll plateau when they're babies. So far though Rasmus looks like the real deal. Great job by the Buffalo tank commanders on landing a potential generational dman. Let's see if they can put him out there with Eichel and the team can still stink up the ice game in and game out. They're getting almost as tough to watch as Edmonton with their perpetual under performance. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

For what it's worth, here's a excerpt from an Athletic article which polled NHL scouts on aspects of the 2018 draft.  Here's what they had to say about Dahlin. 

It was no surprise to see Swedish defenceman Rasmus Dahlin as the top-pick though there was disagreement about whether he is in fact a “generational talent.” It seems like each year there’s another player being slapped with that label, so a question was posed as to whether it was a fair assessment or more so a media construct.

“While he is pretty special, I think that term is getting a little overused,” said one NHL scout. “For various reasons we have to keep building these guys up.”

“I think by definition a ‘generational talent’ is the best player of his generation,” said another scout. “Therefore, some of these generational talents should likely be labelled as stars.  Rasmus is more of a star than a generational talent as of now.”

“I think for the most part it is a media construct but I do believe as a whole, players are getting better each year because of the on ice and off ice training programs all of the kids are on starting at a young age,” said a third scout. “I think Dahlin very well could end up being a generational talent but so much goes into being in the right place at the right time. He is definitely built for today’s game.”

“Generational talent gets thrown around too much,” said yet another evaluator. “By definition we should only see a few of these players in our lifetime, right? It’s not fair to put that type of label on any 17/18-year-old player. Franchise player seems more realistic. He looks like a player to build your team around.”

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

I've seen two prospects be touted as generational in the last decade. And after watching game footage, I wholeheartedly agreed. Those two players are McDavid and Dahlin. If ya'll still need convincing on Dahlin, I will patiently wait. I'm quite happy to hedge my bets on this player. In my view Buffalo just drafted an Erik Karlsson that's good at defending.

[toby91_ca 620]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I've seen two prospects be touted as generational in the last decade. And after watching game footage, I wholeheartedly agreed. Those two players are McDavid and Dahlin. If ya'll still need convincing on Dahlin, I will patiently wait. I'm quite happy to hedge my bets on this player. In my view Buffalo just drafted an Erik Karlsson that's good at defending.

He hasn't played a single game yet in the NHL, so yeah, I'm guessing most will still need convincing.

[Dabura 12,207]

Meh. The "generational" discussion is a semantics tar pit.

Is Dahlin a "generational" talent? Maybe, maybe not. Does he appear to have the makings of a "generational" talent? Maybe, maybe not.

Is he the most promising and exciting teenage defenseman in ages? Yes. Is he the most promising and exciting teenage defenseman ever? You could make that argument. (Lidstrom himself has said as much.)

McDavid is the safest 1st overall pick you can make. If Dahlin is a less safe 1st overall pick, it's only because he's a defenseman. 2015 McDavid is as close as you get to "guaranteed franchise centerman" and 2018 Dahlin is as close as you get to "guaranteed franchise defenseman."

Dahlin is an incredible hockey player. The HYPE! surrounding him is warranted. You couldn't ask for a better defense prospect.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 8/9/2018 at 6:23 AM, toby91_ca said:

He hasn't played a single game yet in the NHL, so yeah, I'm guessing most will still need convincing.

That's fine. I'll be back with the told ya so's in a few months.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Since we're making projections about defensemen, I'll do you one better.  Dennis Cholowski follows in the footsteps of another former BCHLer, Duncan Keith, and becomes a top pairing mainstay and all around badass.  He goes on to win a few Cups, a few gold medals, and a Conn Smythe.  "Generational" superstar Dahlin scores a bunch of points and wins nothing, just like Erik Karlsson before him. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,207]

Dahlin is lazy and he sucks.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

5 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Since we're making projections about defensemen, I'll do you one better.  Dennis Cholowski follows in the footsteps of another former BCHLer, Duncan Keith, and becomes a top pairing mainstay and all around badass.  He goes on to win a few Cups, a few gold medals, and a Conn Smythe.  "Generational" superstar Dahlin scores a bunch of points and wins nothing, just like Erik Karlsson before him. 

 

4 hours ago, Dabura said:

Dahlin is lazy and he sucks.

Cholowski and Dahlin suck and laze, now who's the edgelord you f***in *******