German League Reinstituting Relegation

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Article in German

If anyone follows soccer you know what this is.

Essentially, at the end of the season the worst major league team loses major league status and drops down to the minors. The team that wins the minor leagues is then promoted to the majors. I've always really admired this system, as it creates a unique shifting league where small market teams can rise up and win and it majorly dissuades teams from tanking. It also makes the minor leagues a lot more exciting and not just a farm system.

If the NHL implemented this the Sabres would have dropped down to the AHL this year, and the Toronto Marlies would have come up, giving Toronto the dreaded two teams lol

The year before the Avalanche would have dropped out, and Grand Rapids would have joined the NHL.

Obviously the North American farm system would have to be completely restructured to make any semblance of this work.

[Jasper84 333]

They do this same thing in the Italian Seria A and I like it, it certainly makes things more interesting.  Something like that in the NHL would be pretty cool for the fans in areas where their local team is only in the minors. Grand Rapids for example, them Michiganders out in that area would have had a chance to see the Griffins in the NHL not too long ago. 

I don't know if I'd like this in the NHL/AHL though, without (like you said) needing a major restructure. Right now it wouldn't be any fun at all for any team coming up from the AHL, they'd just get destroyed night in and night out in the big leagues. Interesting thought though. 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

12 minutes ago, Jasper84 said:

They do this same thing in the Italian Seria A and I like it, it certainly makes things more interesting.  Something like that in the NHL would be pretty cool for the fans in areas where their local team is only in the minors. Grand Rapids for example, them Michiganders out in that area would have had a chance to see the Griffins in the NHL not too long ago. 

I don't know if I'd like this in the NHL/AHL though, without (like you said) needing a major restructure. Right now it wouldn't be any fun at all for any team coming up from the AHL, they'd just get destroyed night in and night out in the big leagues. Interesting thought though. 

Do you know how players being sent down works in Seria A? I'm not very familiar.

Say we waived Martin Frk... does he go to whichever AHL teams owns his rights? What happens if the AHL team that owns his rights wins the Calder and becomes an NHL team? Is he no longer ours? Just thinking out loud.

Hockey's pretty unique in that it takes much longer for players to mature than in a lot of other sports. So there's a bigger dependence on the farm.

[Dabura 12,232]

I've been thinking hard on this for the past ten minutes and I don't know how you'd even begin to go about implementing it. Unholy logistics nightmare. And antithetical to Bettman's grow-the-game mandate. And it would surely throw the NHL's finely-tuned parity ecosystem totally out of whack.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I've been thinking hard on this for the past ten minutes and I don't know how you'd even begin to go about implementing it. Unholy logistics nightmare. And antithetical to Bettman's grow-the-game mandate. And it would surely throw the NHL's finely-tuned parity ecosystem totally out of whack.

Yeah it would require total system restructure.

Could you imagine if a team like Toronto or Montreal came in last and fell out of the NHL though? Those cities might burn lol

[NerveDamage 4,176]

5 minutes ago, Dabura said:

I've been thinking hard on this for the past ten minutes and I don't know how you'd even begin to go about implementing it. Unholy logistics nightmare. And antithetical to Bettman's grow-the-game mandate. And it would surely throw the NHL's finely-tuned parity ecosystem totally out of whack.

yeah, imagine having to realign the divisions, depending on which team is sent down and which one goes up. it'd be a mess I tell ya

Edited July 27, 2018 by NerveDamage

[Dabura 12,232]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Could you imagine if a team like Toronto or Montreal came in last and fell out of the NHL though? Those cities might burn lol

Oh gawd. Nothing would give me greater pleasure.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

24 minutes ago, NerveDamage said:

yeah, imagine having to realign the divisions, depending on which team is sent down and which one goes up. it'd be a mess I tell ya

I figure you do away with divisions completely and engage full chaos league

23 minutes ago, Dabura said:

Oh gawd. Nothing would give me greater pleasure.

Ultimate schadenfreude

[NerveDamage 4,176]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I figure you do away with divisions completely and engage full chaos league

Ultimate schadenfreude

well, you could keep conferences and be less of a mess.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, NerveDamage said:

well, you could keep conferences and be less of a mess.

We need a FIFA bro to pop in here and explain the finer points of how a relegation league works

[NerveDamage 4,176]

11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We need a FIFA bro to pop in here and explain the finer points of how a relegation league works

it depends on the league, Mexican soccer league has no conferences and uses the relegation system, there are 2 seasons per year in both first division and first "a" (which is the minor league). Every year the teams that won the championship in the minors would face each other and the winner would ascend to the first division. The major league team with the worse average in both seasons would descend. Although they could always buyout the team that is suposed to ascend and keep it in the minors. There's a lot of *ahem* "politics" involved and tons of money.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, NerveDamage said:

it depends on the league, Mexican soccer league has no conferences and uses the relegation system, there are 2 seasons per year in both first division and first "a" (which is the minor league). Every year the teams that won the championship in the minors would face each other and the winner would ascend to the first division. The major league team with the worse average in both seasons would descend. Although they could always buyout the team that is suposed to ascend and keep it in the minors. There's a lot of *ahem* "politics" involved and tons of money.

Seems like it.

Is there a draft? Do you know how prospects work?

[NerveDamage 4,176]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Seems like it.

Is there a draft? Do you know how prospects work?

the draft is a mockery, it's mostly for old or unemployed players to find new teams.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Just now, NerveDamage said:

the draft is a mockery, it's mostly for old or unemployed players to find new teams.

Interesting.

Maybe we don't want this system lol

[NerveDamage 4,176]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Interesting.

Maybe we don't want this system lol

I mean, I don't know about the German league, but as an example, the Juventus recently acquired CR7 from Madrid and there were no key trades or draft picks, just s*** loads of money.

Different leagues, I know, but still...

Edited July 27, 2018 by NerveDamage

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, NerveDamage said:

I mean, I don't know about the German league, but as an example, the Juventus recently acquired CR7 from Madrid and there were no key trades or draft picks, just s*** loads of money.

Different leagues, I know, but still...

Yeah this is something the NHL used to do, but no longer. Probably for the better.

[Prolix 65]

3 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Do you know how players being sent down works in Seria A? I'm not very familiar.

This concept doesn't really exist in pro/rel football (soccer) leagues. With very few exceptions the system of main/farm team doesn't exist. Clubs have youth teams at different age tiers (with U23s and U18s being the most prominent). By and large these youth teams take part in their own, separate, youth-exclusive league/tournament/structure. (Edit: Although U21 players are usually always available for first-team selection without taking up a registration slot.)

The most notable exception is the Spanish top tier, La Liga. There, the top clubs' equivalent of an U23 team is named [Team Name] B (e.g., Barcelona B, Real Madrid B, etc.), and these teams play in the same pro/rel league structure as their top level club. They are not permitted to play in the same division. If Barcelona B would qualify by position to be promoted to La Liga, they would be passed over and it would go on to the next team. To my knowledge it is somewhat rare for a B team to even make it into the Segunda División; the third division (confusingly, the Segunda División B) has 4 such "B" teams.

I don't know the specifics of how the Spanish leagues operate, but generally speaking (like in the NHL) there is a limit on how many players can be registered to the team in one season, and windows during which registrations can be added or removed. These requirements are typically waived for players under a certain age (this age is usually 21, regardless of playing history); so it is conceivable that a good youth (U21) player could play regularly for both the main and B team in a given season. Other players assigned to the B team, however, who do not meet this eligibility would have to spend the entire season at their B club.

Most other major European leagues don't incorporate youth/B teams into their league structure though. The major objection is the desire to avoid diluting the competitive structure (every B team from a top tier club in a lower division means there's one fewer club, probably 100+ years old, that can't be in that division). If young players can't break into their parent club directly, they are often sent on loan to lower league teams for a season at a time (although 2 seasons is becoming more common) [European teams often have to do this with players requiring work permits as well; it is faster/easier to gain residency in certain countries than others]. These can rarely involve formal parent/"feeder" club arrangements, wherein the parent club pays the lower league club for the relationship and the feeder club accepts players on loan (with a cap on how many you can have total and from one club) from the parent club without being responsible for their wages. Usually loans are to clubs with no formal relationship, though. That club is under no obligation to play the player. Players can only be called back to the parent club if such an option was agreed upon. There would be no moving back and forth (there is a limit on how many teams you can be registered for during one season). Some top tier clubs have gotten to the point where they have literal dozens of young prospects out on loan at any given time (not to the same team). 

And yep, as @NerveDamage says, transfer of player ownership (really transfers of the player's registration) almost exclusively take the form of money changing hands. Player-for-player swaps are almost nonexistent and there is no such thing as draft picks. When a transfer takes place, a new contract must be negotiated between the player and the purchasing club. This means that selling a player (or renewing) becomes critical as their contract nears its end (like the NHL) but there is no need to consider if a player 'has term' as the purchasing club; they'll be on whatever length of contract you agree with them (usually 5 years).

2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I figure you do away with divisions completely and engage full chaos league

Correct. Regional conferences only exist at low levels of football because the teams are too poor to travel far.

2 hours ago, NerveDamage said:

it depends on the league, Mexican soccer league has no conferences and uses the relegation system, there are 2 seasons per year in both first division and first "a" (which is the minor league). Every year the teams that won the championship in the minors would face each other and the winner would ascend to the first division. The major league team with the worse average in both seasons would descend. Although they could always buyout the team that is suposed to ascend and keep it in the minors. There's a lot of *ahem* "politics" involved and tons of money.

It's even worse in Argentina. Relegation is tracked on a rolling three-year (I think) average so that the good teams (who are actually solvent) don't accidentally get relegated because of one bad season.

Disparities between tiers on a pro/rel pyramid can be really drastic. English Premier League teams who get relegated to the Championship (the 2nd tier; which is confusingly ahead of the "First Division" [tier 3] and "Second Division" [tier 4]) actually receive what are called 'parachute payments' to ease the financial contraction of going down a division (where their wages are now way too high to sustain with the decreased revenue).

Pro/rel is a great system in a sport that has been using it for decades (and has been playing the sport for over a hundred years). But the US has too many clubs for a single, unified top division and too few to properly split it into tiers, not to mention absolutely no cultural or historical concept to understand it by. It's probably (slowly) coming to US Soccer, but that's a whole other can of worms.

BTW, Detroit City FC is great fun and y'all should go see their games!

Edited July 28, 2018 by Prolix

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

It's pretty much as Prolix described it. The draftless system leads to prospects already worth millions and getting transferred to the big teams. It's a the rich get richer system with a few big teams playing for their national championships and then competing for the Championsleague on a europewide level. If your favorite team has a superstar in the making he is bought off pretty much immediately by the big teams.Just imagine Larkin or Zadina getting transferred to the Lighting or Penguins. It does make the national leagues very boring affairs, at least the German Bundesliga. The champion the last  6 (!) years was the FC Bayern München (or Munich for you guys   ) and it was not even close most times.

The relegation system plays a part in that, too. Every relegation breaks the teams neck in financial terms making those teams that could face relegation far more cautions. But with cautious investments you don't make up ground to the leading teams, which cements their position even more. I don't like this system at all and I don't think it will do the DEL any good in the long run. I love your North American system with the Salary Cap and the Draft in which every team has a decent chance to win a championship in the next decade.

Edited July 28, 2018 by derblaueClaus

[BigWillieStyle 662]

Why are you trying to make hockey more like soccer/football/futbal? Hasn't The NHL been pussified enough?

 

The only thing I'd like to see in common with the 2 sports is more Hooliganism by the fans.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

21 hours ago, Prolix said:

This concept doesn't really exist in pro/rel football (soccer) leagues. With very few exceptions the system of main/farm team doesn't exist. Clubs have youth teams at different age tiers (with U23s and U18s being the most prominent). By and large these youth teams take part in their own, separate, youth-exclusive league/tournament/structure. (Edit: Although U21 players are usually always available for first-team selection without taking up a registration slot.)

The most notable exception is the Spanish top tier, La Liga. There, the top clubs' equivalent of an U23 team is named [Team Name] B (e.g., Barcelona B, Real Madrid B, etc.), and these teams play in the same pro/rel league structure as their top level club. They are not permitted to play in the same division. If Barcelona B would qualify by position to be promoted to La Liga, they would be passed over and it would go on to the next team. To my knowledge it is somewhat rare for a B team to even make it into the Segunda División; the third division (confusingly, the Segunda División B) has 4 such "B" teams.

I don't know the specifics of how the Spanish leagues operate, but generally speaking (like in the NHL) there is a limit on how many players can be registered to the team in one season, and windows during which registrations can be added or removed. These requirements are typically waived for players under a certain age (this age is usually 21, regardless of playing history); so it is conceivable that a good youth (U21) player could play regularly for both the main and B team in a given season. Other players assigned to the B team, however, who do not meet this eligibility would have to spend the entire season at their B club.

Most other major European leagues don't incorporate youth/B teams into their league structure though. The major objection is the desire to avoid diluting the competitive structure (every B team from a top tier club in a lower division means there's one fewer club, probably 100+ years old, that can't be in that division). If young players can't break into their parent club directly, they are often sent on loan to lower league teams for a season at a time (although 2 seasons is becoming more common) [European teams often have to do this with players requiring work permits as well; it is faster/easier to gain residency in certain countries than others]. These can rarely involve formal parent/"feeder" club arrangements, wherein the parent club pays the lower league club for the relationship and the feeder club accepts players on loan (with a cap on how many you can have total and from one club) from the parent club without being responsible for their wages. Usually loans are to clubs with no formal relationship, though. That club is under no obligation to play the player. Players can only be called back to the parent club if such an option was agreed upon. There would be no moving back and forth (there is a limit on how many teams you can be registered for during one season). Some top tier clubs have gotten to the point where they have literal dozens of young prospects out on loan at any given time (not to the same team). 

And yep, as @NerveDamage says, transfer of player ownership (really transfers of the player's registration) almost exclusively take the form of money changing hands. Player-for-player swaps are almost nonexistent and there is no such thing as draft picks. When a transfer takes place, a new contract must be negotiated between the player and the purchasing club. This means that selling a player (or renewing) becomes critical as their contract nears its end (like the NHL) but there is no need to consider if a player 'has term' as the purchasing club; they'll be on whatever length of contract you agree with them (usually 5 years).

Correct. Regional conferences only exist at low levels of football because the teams are too poor to travel far.

It's even worse in Argentina. Relegation is tracked on a rolling three-year (I think) average so that the good teams (who are actually solvent) don't accidentally get relegated because of one bad season.

Disparities between tiers on a pro/rel pyramid can be really drastic. English Premier League teams who get relegated to the Championship (the 2nd tier; which is confusingly ahead of the "First Division" [tier 3] and "Second Division" [tier 4]) actually receive what are called 'parachute payments' to ease the financial contraction of going down a division (where their wages are now way too high to sustain with the decreased revenue).

Pro/rel is a great system in a sport that has been using it for decades (and has been playing the sport for over a hundred years). But the US has too many clubs for a single, unified top division and too few to properly split it into tiers, not to mention absolutely no cultural or historical concept to understand it by. It's probably (slowly) coming to US Soccer, but that's a whole other can of worms.

BTW, Detroit City FC is great fun and y'all should go see their games!

Thanks for the long detailed explanation. A lot to digest. Sounds like hockey wouldn't be even remotely like it is now under this system.

Have never been to a Detroit City FC game, but I got to Seattle Sounders game here in Seattle quite a bit actually. I'm not a huge fan or anything, but there's quite a strong soccer culture growing in the Pacific-Northwest. Seattle and Portland both have a pretty hardcore passionate fanbases and the games are decently cheap to go to. So I've been attending and have been pleasantly surprised by the soccer experience so far.

10 hours ago, derblaueClaus said:

It's pretty much as Prolix described it. The draftless system leads to prospects already worth millions and getting transferred to the big teams. It's a the rich get richer system with a few big teams playing for their national championships and then competing for the Championsleague on a europewide level. If your favorite team has a superstar in the making he is bought off pretty much immediately by the big teams.Just imagine Larkin or Zadina getting transferred to the Lighting or Penguins. It does make the national leagues very boring affairs, at least the German Bundesliga. The champion the last  6 (!) years was the FC Bayern München (or Munich for you guys   ) and it was not even close most times.

The relegation system plays a part in that, too. Every relegation breaks the teams neck in financial terms making those teams that could face relegation far more cautions. But with cautious investments you don't make up ground to the leading teams, which cements their position even more. I don't like this system at all and I don't think it will do the DEL any good in the long run. I love your North American system with the Salary Cap and the Draft in which every team has a decent chance to win a championship in the next decade.

Thanks as well for the detailed explanation. I like the idea of relegation, but the rest of the stuff that comes with I don't care for, now that it's been explained.

1 hour ago, BigWillieStyle said:

Why are you trying to make hockey more like soccer/football/futbal? Hasn't The NHL been pussified enough?

 

The only thing I'd like to see in common with the 2 sports is more Hooliganism by the fans.

I'm definitely not trying to make hockey like soccer. If anything I'd like the NHL to be more violent. I absolutely loath the diving culture that's taken over soccer, which is probably why I'll never be a real fan. I just think the idea of relegation is an interesting one, probably because we don't have it in NA for the most part...

Edited July 28, 2018 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

Also I like the way players are transferred in futbal. Both teams agree to a dollar figure for the team to accept losing said player, and then also agree to a new contract for the player they want. No trading offense for defense. But if eufa finds youve violated the financial fair play agreement (you've spent more money than your income allows) you will be punished accordingly. Paris Saint-Germain and AC Milan both falling victim to this recently, Milan was banned for a year from European competition and it was overturned when new owners took over and resolved their financial concerns. 

[Juklitz 85]

On 7/29/2018 at 3:59 AM, Euro_Twins said:

Also I like the way players are transferred in futbal. Both teams agree to a dollar figure for the team to accept losing said player, and then also agree to a new contract for the player they want. No trading offense for defense.

What is unseen, that cap space in NHL is making whole league more competetive, comparing with UEFA Championship League. I´m not watching this anymore, it´s like Real, Barca, Chelsea? Will ManC make it finally? What a drama to watch. 

These clubs can easily overpay every single offer in the whole Europe, one can say this is interesting, ok, but it´s like NHL after 2000, with only couple clubs were able to sign multiple top contracts. And that difference between each others budget, is in soccer way, way wider. 

 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

14 minutes ago, Juklitz said:

What is unseen, that cap space in NHL is making whole league more competetive, comparing with UEFA Championship League. I´m not watching this anymore, it´s like Real, Barca, Chelsea? Will ManC make it finally? What a drama to watch. 

These clubs can easily overpay every single offer in the whole Europe, one can say this is interesting, ok, but it´s like NHL after 2000, with only couple clubs were able to sign multiple top contracts. And that difference between each others budget, is in soccer way, way wider. 

 

Not to be a homer, but I feel like NA is way ahead of the rest of the world in the development of professional sports.

Soccer almost seems like 1970s hockey or earlier to me. 40 years behind where NA is. I don't mean this as a slight, maybe it works for soccer...

[Juklitz 85]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Not to be a homer, but I feel like NA is way ahead of the rest of the world in the development of professional sports.

Soccer almost seems like 1970s hockey or earlier to me. 40 years behind where NA is. I don't mean this as a slight, maybe it works for soccer...

No, it doesn´t work. This logic is cascaded on national levels as well, as derblaueClaus mentioned above. Every single national soccer league is working the same - you´ve got like 2-3 teams who are in the mix (and that´s the good scenario), the rest is just to have schedule filled.

What´s the league about, where 80% of teams would like to play safety mid. 

 

[Jasper84 333]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:35 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Do you know how players being sent down works in Seria A? I'm not very familiar.

Say we waived Martin Frk... does he go to whichever AHL teams owns his rights? What happens if the AHL team that owns his rights wins the Calder and becomes an NHL team? Is he no longer ours? Just thinking out loud.

Hockey's pretty unique in that it takes much longer for players to mature than in a lot of other sports. So there's a bigger dependence on the farm.

There isn't any sending down players anywhere in the Seria A. A player is either good enough to play, or he isn't. If it's a matter of not having enough room, they can lend a player to any team in any league.