2019 Offseason Rebuild Thread, Pt. 2 - What's the Yzerplan?

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Players can only go through arbitration once.

You're operating under the assumption that Trouba wants to be a Red Wing. There is absolutely zero evidence to support that, just speculation by us.

Laine had a 50 pt season this year. He's not getting $11 mil or anywhere close to it. They have plenty of space to re-sign Trouba to a big contract if they want to. And no it's not obvious he doesn't want to be a Jet, it's obvious he wants to be paid well, and deservedly so.

They'll fetch more than a first for him

 

 

We're not getting Trouba this season unless it's for a significant price. Please think for two seconds. This is a 50 pt RFA controlled Dman. Those players do not fall into your lap for Matt Puempel and a 2nd under any circumstance. It's amazing that I have to point this out. There's also absolutely zero evidence suggesting he wants to be a Red Wing.

Well just saying cause someone said we can move some of our 2nds , if they really wanted to deal him for picks or prospects just imagine what they’d get for him on trade deadline , easily would be #1 dman available ... I’m hoping not cause I’m hoping mike green will be healthy for once so yzerman would ship his ass out for a 1st or more 2nds 

i agree with you with the hefty price it would take and with where our team stands I’d just wait it out till July 2020  and see what happens rather than trading 3 really top pieces for one piece even though it’s a good one , I’m a greedy f*** and I’d rather take a chance and keep all 4

 

its amazing how nobody here is like patient and can’t wait a year and willing to give up all these assets .... remember what yzerman said ... patience patience patience 

Edited May 27, 2019 by nyqvististhefuture

[LeftWinger 4,963]

All are going to be surprised at how little it's gonna cost. Just have to go back to Erik Karlsson.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Lol don't pretend like the two are similar.

Kuffner + Puempel + 2nd is a complete joke and is honestly completely retarded

Veleno + Hronek + 2nd is completely in the realm of possible even if you don't like it

You guys need to realize Trouba is going to come at a hefty price. Young 50 pt proven NHL Dmen are like the hope diamonds of the NHL.

There's zero chance Hronek and Veleno would be traded for Trouba, just like there's zero chance two career AHLers will be traded for Trouba.

Hronek just put up 0.5 points per game in his rookie season at the age of 20-21. Trouba never eclipsed that number until he was in his 4th season at the age of 22-23. Hronek is off limits. Yzerman has already said this.

I originally said Green, Rasmussen and a 2nd round pick. I think that's a little more reasonable, but what do I know...

9 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

AA + Lindstrom + 2019 2nd for Trouba

I also think this is more reasonable.

Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd? No chance.

I do agree though that we should probably just wait it out a season, and hope we can sign him as a free agent next summer...

[Akakabuto 1,751]

I hope nobody thought that I found the rumor in the link to be realistic. 

But then again, I do believe in the magic of Stevie Y.

10 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

All are going to be surprised at how little it's gonna cost. Just have to go back to Erik Karlsson.

Agree. Jets GM probably got offers from  about 20 teams right now and doesn’t like any of them. That list is going to get a whole lot shorter soon when teams want to know the chances of signing Trouba long-term. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Akakabuto

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

4 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

All are going to be surprised at how little it's gonna cost. Just have to go back to Erik Karlsson.

Completely different scenarios. Not comparable.

10 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Well just saying cause someone said we can move some of our 2nds , if they really wanted to deal him for picks or prospects just imagine what they’d get for him on trade deadline , easily would be #1 dman available ... I’m hoping not cause I’m hoping mike green will be healthy for once so yzerman would ship his ass out for a 1st or more 2nds 

i agree with you with the hefty price it would take and with where our team stands I’d just wait it out till July 2020  and see what happens rather than trading 3 really top pieces for one piece even though it’s a good one , I’m a greedy f*** and I’d rather take a chance and keep all 4

 

its amazing how nobody here is like patient and can’t wait a year and willing to give up all these assets .... remember what yzerman said ... patience patience patience 

Green isn't going anywhere. NTC and a gentlemen's deal with Holland that he isn't getting traded. Yzerman technicallly doesn't have to honor it, but he will.

[krsmith17 7,191]

14 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Green isn't going anywhere. NTC and a gentlemen's deal with Holland that he isn't getting traded. Yzerman technicallly doesn't have to honor it, but he will.

Green's NTC becomes a M-NTC on February 1st of next season, in which he would have to submit a 10 team no trade list. Assuming Green is healthy, and we're not a playoff team by that time, he will 100% be traded. Yzerman has no ties to Green, and would not feel obligated to honor a deal made by the previous GM.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

There's zero chance Hronek and Veleno would be traded for Trouba, just like there's zero chance two career AHLers will be traded for Trouba.

Hronek just put up 0.5 points per game in his rookie season at the age of 20-21. Trouba never eclipsed that number until he was in his 4th season at the age of 22-23. Hronek is off limits. Yzerman has already said this.

I originally said Green, Rasmussen and a 2nd round pick. I think that's a little more reasonable, but what do I know...

I also think this is more reasonable.

Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd? No chance.

I do agree though that we should probably just wait it out a season, and hope we can sign him as a free agent next summer...

You're splitting some serious hairs here

Jets are definitely gonna ask for Hronek in return. Whether you'd personally include him is neither here nor there. Jets will not be asking for Kuffner or Puempel at all.

AA + Rasmussen + Lindstrom

Veleno + Cholowski + 2nd

Bertuzzi + Berggren + 1st

Come up with whatever wacky combos you like, but we would be giving up multiple significant pieces to obtain him.

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

You're splitting some serious hairs here

Jets are definitely gonna ask for Hronek in return. Whether you'd personally include him is neither here nor there. Jets will not be asking for Kuffner or Puempel at all.

AA + Rasmussen + Lindstrom

Veleno + Cholowski + 2nd

Bertuzzi + Berggren + 1st

Come up with whatever wacky combos you like, but we would be giving up multiple significant pieces to obtain him.

What are you talking about? I never said that we could acquire Trouba for anything close to Kuffner or Puempel. I'm not "splitting hairs". Literally all I'm saying is that IF we were to acquire Trouba, it would not cost us Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd round pick.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

What are you talking about? I never said that we could acquire Trouba for anything close to Kuffner or Puempel. I'm not "splitting hairs". Literally all I'm saying is that IF we were to acquire Trouba, it would not cost us Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd round pick.

Ok, so Cholowski Veleno and a 2nd

You're still splitting hairs

[MileHighWingsGuy 178]

If Yzerman is going after Trouba he needs to just do it. If he’s on the block there’s no telling who grabs him and what extension they sign him to. If he doesn’t matter then play the waiting game and see if he becomes a free agent.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

28 minutes ago, MileHighWingsGuy said:

If Yzerman is going after Trouba he needs to just do it. If he’s on the block there’s no telling who grabs him and what extension they sign him to. If he doesn’t matter then play the waiting game and see if he becomes a free agent.

That's the worry

[krsmith17 7,191]

42 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ok, so Cholowski Veleno and a 2nd

You're still splitting hairs

Explain how I'm splitting hairs? You think what some random Jets fans think would be a reasonable return for Trouba is a good indicator of what such a trade would look like. I don't.

It's really not much different than if Mantha wanted out of Detroit and said in the past that he wants to go back to Montreal. We then say that we should get Jesperi Kotkaniemi, Josh Brook and a 2nd round pick, and some random Hab fan comes here and brings that useless information back to his friends back at letsgohabs.com...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Explain how I'm splitting hairs? You think what some random Jets fans think would be a reasonable return for Trouba is a good indicator of what such a trade would look like. I don't.

It's really not much different than if Mantha wanted out of Detroit and said in the past that he wants to go back to Montreal. We then say that we should get Jesperi Kotkaniemi, Josh Brook and a 2nd round pick, and some random Hab fan comes here and brings that useless information back to his friends back at letsgohabs.com...

Jesus man

The return the Jets fans are throwing around is: Big D prospect + Big F prospect + 2nd round pick

The Jets will certainly inquire about Hronek. They're going to want a young Dman included in the trade to replace Trouba now or in the near future. That likley means one of Hronek, Cholowski, or McIssac. If you would say no on Hronek, great, hallelujah, then include Cholowski or McIssac instead.

That's where you're splitting hairs; on Hronek. If you personally think Hronek is untouchable, again, fine, cool, grand, I don't care, include Cholowski/McIssac instead.

Jets will ask about Hronek, Jets will not ask about Kuffner or Puempel. One is a lot more retarded than the other.

 

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Jesus man

The return the Jets fans are throwing around is: Big D prospect + Big F prospect + 2nd round pick

The Jets will certainly inquire about Hronek. They're going to want a young Dman included in the trade to replace Trouba now or in the near future. That likley means one of Hronek, Cholowski, or McIssac. If you would say no on Hronek, great, hallelujah, then include Cholowski or McIssac instead.

That's where you're splitting hairs; on Hronek. If you personally think Hronek is untouchable, again, fine, cool, grand, I don't care, include Cholowski/McIssac instead.

Jets will ask about Hronek, Jets will not ask about Kuffner or Puempel. One is a lot more retarded than the other.

I have no idea what your point is... All I said is that the Jets would not get Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd for Trouba, just like we wouldn't get Trouba for Kuffner, Puempel and a 2nd. Then you told me not to pretend the two were similar when I never at any point said they were. Neither will happen. Anyway this is beyond dumb...

I just want the offseason lull to be over, and teams (Yzerman) to start making some moves...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

49 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That's the worry

But he’s not forced to sign a contract just because he’s dealt , look at duchene and Karlsson? If he gets traded so be it until he signs a contract extension I’m not worried at all. He’s waited so long to control his own destiny and leave Winnipeg and now he’s a year away I don’t think he’s gonna rush things and just sign a deal

10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I have no idea what your point is... All I said is that the Jets would not get Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd for Trouba, just like we wouldn't get Trouba for Kuffner, Puempel and a 2nd. Then you told me not to pretend the two were similar when I never at any point said they were. Neither will happen. Anyway this is beyond dumb...

I just want the offseason lull to be over, and teams (Yzerman) to start making some moves...

Guys let’s just agree the cost of landing trouba right now would be steep and with us rebuilding we shouldn’t be trading say AA mcisaac and the 35th pick which could be another top prospect , let’s just stay the course be patient and see what happens in the next year 

either way I think we’re building a real good foundation for the future and  we just need that solid #1d whether it be trouba, or a trade for a teams young top d prospect or this years draft as well as pherhaps drafting another good goalie prospect this year just in case things don’t work out with Larson and eliasson 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

16 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I have no idea what your point is... All I said is that the Jets would not get Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd for Trouba, just like we wouldn't get Trouba for Kuffner, Puempel and a 2nd. Then you told me not to pretend the two were similar when I never at any point said they were. Neither will happen. Anyway this is beyond dumb...

I just want the offseason lull to be over, and teams (Yzerman) to start making some moves...

 

1. Low end F prospect + Low end F prospect + 2nd = not realistic

2. High end D prospect + High end F prospect + 2nd = realistic

Hronek = high end D prospect

Veleno = high end F prospect

We both agree that we shouldn't give away both Veleno and Hronek, but this is exactly the type of trade the Jets will be looking for. Calling both 1 and 2 foolish implies similarity. 2 is A LOT closer to reality than 1.

14 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

But he’s not forced to sign a contract just because he’s dealt , look at duchene and Karlsson? If he gets traded so be it until he signs a contract extension I’m not worried at all. He’s waited so long to control his own destiny and leave Winnipeg and now he’s a year away I don’t think he’s gonna rush things and just sign a deal

We don't know his motivations. Does he want to sign in Detroit and come home? Does he just want out of Winnipeg?

If the former is true I'm not worried at all. If the later is true I'd expect he'll extend with whomever gives him a good deal.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

1. Low end F prospect + Low end F prospect + 2nd = not realistic

2. High end D prospect + High end F prospect + 2nd = realistic

Hronek = high end D prospect

Veleno = high end F prospect

We both agree that we shouldn't give away both Veleno and Hronek, but this is exactly the type of trade the Jets will be looking for. Calling both 1 and 2 foolish implies similarity. 2 is A LOT closer to reality than 1.

No, calling both foolish is just that. I was never comparing the two trade packages in any way.

I never once said that one was or wasn't more realistic than the other. That was never the point of contention. My only point was that Winnipeg are NOT getting Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd from Yzerman for Trouba. Never going to happen. Period. End of discussion.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No, calling both foolish is just that. I was never comparing the two trade packages in any way.

I never once said that one was or wasn't more realistic than the other. That was never the point of contention. My only point was that Winnipeg are NOT getting Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd from Yzerman for Trouba. Never going to happen. Period. End of discussion.

 

15 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

It's foolish to think that Puempel, Kuffner and a 2nd would be enough to get Trouba. It's also foolish to think Trouba (under these circumstances) would get anything close to Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd. Realistically, it's likely somewhere in between. Hronek is off the table. Yzerman will work his magic. Trouba will be a Red Wing. 

If A = C

and B = C

It can be said that A = B

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

KRS, you were doing great and then you relapsed.

 

"We should go after Landeskog.  We could offer Hirose, Ericsson, and a 3rd.  Of course, they probably wouldnt do it, but we shoud start there."

 

 

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

47 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

1. Low end F prospect + Low end F prospect + 2nd = not realistic

2. High end D prospect + High end F prospect + 2nd = realistic

Hronek = high end D prospect

Veleno = high end F prospect

We both agree that we shouldn't give away both Veleno and Hronek, but this is exactly the type of trade the Jets will be looking for. Calling both 1 and 2 foolish implies similarity. 2 is A LOT closer to reality than 1.

We don't know his motivations. Does he want to sign in Detroit and come home? Does he just want out of Winnipeg?

If the former is true I'm not worried at all. If the later is true I'd expect he'll extend with whomever gives him a good deal.

At the end of the day if he really wants to come back to Detroit he’s one year away from making it a reality , and I’m sure his agent has talked to yzerman and knows his interest and ballpark figures on contract terms so if he wants to come to Detroit he will I don’t think he will just sign with any team that gives him a good contract, could be proven wrong so wtf do I know , we’ll have to just wait and see 

[krsmith17 7,191]

22 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If A = C

and B = C

It can be said that A = B

What's your point. No comparison was made between the two. I simply said that neither would happen. That's it.

If I said it is "equally" as foolish, you'd have a beef. I didn't...

4 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

KRS, you were doing great and then you relapsed.

"We should go after Landeskog.  We could offer Hirose, Ericsson, and a 3rd.  Of course, they probably wouldnt do it, but we shoud start there."

What the f*** are you talking about?

Legitimately curious to know what you think I said...

Hirose ≠ Rasmussen. Ericsson ≠ Green. 3rd round pick ≠ 2nd round pick. Landeskog ≠ Trouba.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

 

9 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

At the end of the day if he really wants to come back to Detroit he’s one year away from making it a reality , and I’m sure his agent has talked to yzerman and knows his interest and ballpark figures on contract terms so if he wants to come to Detroit he will I don’t think he will just sign with any team that gives him a good contract, could be proven wrong so wtf do I know , we’ll have to just wait and see 

To add fuel to the fire, Trouba is represented by the same agent group that represents Dylan Larkin, Filip Larsson, David Pope, Ian Cole (Ann Arbor, Michigan), TJ Hensick (Howell, Michigan), Chris Conner (Westland, Michigan and former Red Wing/Griffin), Jack Campbell (Port Huron, Michigan), Ben Street (former Red Wing/Griffin), Ryan Kesler (Livonia, Michigan), and Andrew Copp (Ann Arbor, Michigan).

So Yzerman definitely has contact with Trouba's agents, KO Sports. They especially seem to represent a large amount of guys coming out of Michigan.

Adam Foote is also an agent for KO Sports. Yzerman drafted his son.

Foote + Callahan to Detroit confirmed.

5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

What's your point. No comparison was made between the two. I simply said that neither would happen. That's it.

If I said it is "equally" as foolish, you'd have a beef. I didn't...

You indirectly compared them quite clearly

Do you want to say now that Hronek + Veleno + 2nd is a lot more realistic than Kuffner + Puempel + 2nd? Cause:

16 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

It's also foolish to think Trouba (under these circumstances) would get anything close to Hronek, Veleno and a 2nd.

I think they'd definitely get something close to that deal. Probably not both Veleno and Hronek, but maybe Cholowski and Veleno, or Cholowski and AA. Point being they're going to get significant return.

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Do you want to say now that Hronek + Veleno + 2nd is a lot more realistic than Kuffner + Puempel + 2nd?

More realistic? Sure. Realistic. Not at all.

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I think they'd definitely get something close to that deal. Probably not both Veleno and Hronek, but maybe Cholowski and Veleno, or Cholowski and AA. Point being they're going to get significant return.

This is where we disagree. I don't think a pending RFA, that is known to have no desire to remain in the organization garners that sort of return from any team. IF he is traded, it will NOT be for two high-end prospects and a high draft pick. It will also NOT be for two replacement level prospects. Don't take this as me comparing the two... because I'm not...

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

17 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

To add fuel to the fire, Trouba is represented by the same agent group that represents Dylan Larkin, Filip Larsson, David Pope, Ian Cole (Ann Arbor, Michigan), TJ Hensick (Howell, Michigan), Chris Conner (Westland, Michigan and former Red Wing/Griffin), Jack Campbell (Port Huron, Michigan), Ben Street (former Red Wing/Griffin), Ryan Kesler (Livonia, Michigan), and Andrew Copp (Ann Arbor, Michigan).

So Yzerman definitely has contact with Trouba's agents, KO Sports. They especially seem to represent a large amount of guys coming out of Michigan.

Adam Foote is also an agent for KO Sports. Yzerman drafted his son.

Foote + Callahan to Detroit confirmed.

You indirectly compared them quite clearly

Do you want to say now that Hronek + Veleno + 2nd is a lot more realistic than Kuffner + Puempel + 2nd? Cause:

I think they'd definitely get something close to that deal. Probably not both Veleno and Hronek, but maybe Cholowski and Veleno, or Cholowski and AA. Point being they're going to get significant return.

Haha Foote would be nice but don’t see it happening ... we’ll even better his agent has all those Michigan guys and wings players .... as for all these trade scenarios your putting out there I think it would be moronic with where this team is and trouba being a ufa in one season and all the coming home to Detroit talk that’d been going on for years to give up cholowski and veleno or cholowski and AA now ... one more year man

For the longterm future 

trouba  hronek 

cholowski mcisaac 

Or 

trouba hronek 

cholowski (young d prospect in AA deal)

mcisaac

or  if trouba doesn’t come 

hronek cholowski

(young dman in AA deal) mcisaac 

whether we get trouba for free or he moves on I think we’ll be ok either way ,I’ve been weary of veleno and don’t wanna get my hopes up but I’m not willing to move him at this point and I’m thinking he and zadina together can be a fixture for a very longtime , first line is written in stone in my eyes for years 

zadina veleno podkolzin 

zadina turcotte veleno 

zadina veleno zegras 

zadina veleno caufield 

point is I think veleno has a very good shot at being a second line player with zadina and the 6th pick overall at this point .... guys like svechnikov,AA,Rasmussen might end up being the trade baits some point , right now I just sit back and drink and wait till July 2020 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

More realistic? Sure. Realistic. Not at all.

This is where we disagree. I don't think a pending RFA, that is known to have no desire to remain in the organization garners that sort of return from any team. IF he is traded, it will NOT be for two high-end prospects and a high draft pick. It will also NOT be for two replacement level prospects. Don't take this as me comparing the two... because I'm not...

That is pure speculation. All we know about Trouba's situation in Winnipeg is that they disagreed on his worth at the beginning of the 2016/17 season and he held out until he felt he was paid fairly. After that contract completed he became an RFA for 22 days and then re-signed with Winnipeg again on a 1 year deal.

None of that suggests he wants out of Winnipeg, only that he wants to be paid according to his own perceived value.

In fact, if he was hell bent on leaving Winnipeg, he would've negotiated a 2 year deal last season and left the team as a UFA. But he didn't.

Trouba's recent interview in the Athletic also painted the picture of a guy pretty happy to be playing in Winnipeg (paywall).

RFA control has significant value. Any team that trades for Trouba is basically guaranteed a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd if he decides to run off and sign elsewhere. And, if Trouba ends up signing for more than $8.2 that team would receive two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd. And it's entirely possible he will sign for that much. He's a player who's proven he will hold out for the money he feels he's owed, and for comparison, Esa Lindell - a 30 pt Dman of the same age as Trouba - just signed for $5.8 AAV.

With that in mind, anyone wanting Trouba basically needs to offer the value of a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, plus more.

Here's a trade suggestion from Rangers fans:

To NYR:
Jacob Trouba

To Winnipeg:
Lias Andersson (first round pick), Brett Howden (first round pick), 1st round pick, 5th round pick

Here's another one I just found from Wings fans at WIIM:

To DET:
Jacob Trouba

To Winnipeg:
Joe Veleno, Jared McIssac, + picks

Here's another from Jet's fans:

To whomever:
Jacob Trouba

To Winnipeg:
Great prospect, so-so prospect, 1st round pick, pick after the 1st round

I don't think two high-end prospects and a 2nd is at all unreasonable for Trouba. For someone who really wants Trouba I think you're being incredibly naive when it comes to his value. I mean no insult by that.

34 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Haha Foote would be nice but don’t see it happening ... we’ll even better his agent has all those Michigan guys and wings players .... as for all these trade scenarios your putting out there I think it would be moronic with where this team is and trouba being a ufa in one season and all the coming home to Detroit talk that’d been going on for years to give up cholowski and veleno or cholowski and AA now ... one more year man

For the longterm future 

trouba  hronek 

cholowski mcisaac 

Or 

trouba hronek 

cholowski (young d prospect in AA deal)

mcisaac

or  if trouba doesn’t come 

hronek cholowski

(young dman in AA deal) mcisaac 

whether we get trouba for free or he moves on I think we’ll be ok either way ,I’ve been weary of veleno and don’t wanna get my hopes up but I’m not willing to move him at this point and I’m thinking he and zadina together can be a fixture for a very longtime , first line is written in stone in my eyes for years 

zadina veleno podkolzin 

zadina turcotte veleno 

zadina veleno zegras 

zadina veleno caufield 

point is I think veleno has a very good shot at being a second line player with zadina and the 6th pick overall at this point .... guys like svechnikov,AA,Rasmussen might end up being the trade baits some point , right now I just sit back and drink and wait till July 2020 

I agree that it's not the right time for a Trouba trade reagrdless. Especially if he has the secret desire to come home.