ely s 458 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 52 minutes ago, kipwinger said: I never said AA was the better player, just the better scorer, so your first point is moot. Your second point is moot because their careers are more than one season long. But there's the thing, I can prove that AA is the better scorer with empirical evidence. I just need you to answer one question first. Over the course of their careers, who has played with the better players in general? Keeping in mind, of course, that Mantha has averaged about 2.5 more minutes per game (hence he's played on higher lines than AA). I hope you take the quality of opposition into account Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,771 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, ely s said: I hope you take the quality of opposition into account According to analytics experts QoC doesn't really matter that much, relative to quality of linemates, for a few different reasons. 1) You control who your guys play with for 100% of the games you play, but can't control who they're out against for about 50% of games (on the road) you play. 2) In general opposition teams want to get their good players out against your bad ones. So generally speaking Blashill would want Mantha's line out against weaker competition, and other coaches would want their best guys out against our 3rd and 4th lines. Because of these things, QoC is basically irrelevant. Quality of linemates isn't though, because barring an icing during the middle of a line change, you send players out together every shift and change them together every shift so they consistently play with the same quality (or lack thereof) linemates. Here's a great article on it, just so you're not simply taking my word for it. https://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/why-quality-of-competition-doesn-t-matter-to-analytics-experts-anymore-1.23414544 Edited December 17, 2019 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mackel 768 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 7 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Yeah, I can totally see why you think there's zero chance a (just turned) 20 year old winger with 7 points in 10 games can become a top line winger... Especially one with all his "flaws"... If you polled Zadina vs Hughes, I'm sure the results would be a lot more skewed in Hughes favor. However, I wouldn't be too surprised if Zadina is the better player in a couple years. The homer is strong in this one... you make Jack Edwards look objective. Didn't Hirose have something comparable to 7 in 10 last season... that hype train is derailed and on fire. 3 hours ago, krsmith17 said: LOL I always wonder if you're this big a tool in real life, or if this is your online persona... Honestly, save yourself some time because I don't give a s*** about why you think Hughes is dominating, or why you think Zadina won't. Apparently you do since you replied. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 DOPE: Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Hronek, Fabbri Bretty Gud: Glendening, Helm, Ehn, Nemeth, Biega, Dekeyser Meh: Howard, Bernier, Comrie, Abdelkader, Athanasiou, Filppula, Green, Daley, Hirose Cringe: Ericsson, Erne, Zadina, Lashoff, McIlrath, Hicketts Trash: Nielsen, Perlini, Bowey, Pickard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 4 hours ago, marcaractac said: you're going full neck-beard on this one 1 Wheelchairsuperhero reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 5,153 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 Fabbri or Zadina....seems like this is Mantha or AA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcaractac 3,963 Report post Posted December 18, 2019 14 hours ago, LeftWinger said: Fabbri or Zadina....seems like this is Mantha or AA. Tippet vs Hague Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 5,153 Report post Posted December 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, marcaractac said: Tippet vs Hague Hossa vs. Franzen 1 Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 Zadina promoted to top line... I'd like to see Athanasiou between Bertuzzi and Fabbri, and Perlini up with Filppula and Glendening... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Zadina promoted to top line... I'd like to see Athanasiou between Bertuzzi and Fabbri, and Perlini up with Filppula and Glendening... Mantha and Larkin bout to do to Zadina what Monahan and Gaudreau did to Hudler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: Mantha and Larkin bout to do to Zadina what Monahan and Gaudreau did to Hudler In other words... "Zadina's about to tear s*** up, so I better get ahead of it, and come up with an excuse as to why before it happens"... Zadina >>> Hudler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 Just now, krsmith17 said: In other words... "Zadina's about to tear s*** up, so I better get ahead of it, and come up with an excuse as to why before it happens"... Zadina >>> Hudler I been sayin Zadina is Hudler 2.0 for a long time now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: I been sayin Zadina is Hudler 2.0 for a long time now I'm well aware. Everyone is well aware. But yet, you felt the need to repeat it once again, after Zadina was promoted to the top line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: I'm well aware. So then why post this nonsense? 14 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: In other words... "Zadina's about to tear s*** up, so I better get ahead of it, and come up with an excuse as to why before it happens"... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: So then why post this nonsense? Everyone knows what you think of Zadina. I was posting the above for those that haven't been blinded by their own bias against him since being drafted. You still felt the need to repeat the same drivel, to be sure that everyone knows "why" Zadina is about to / continue to put up some big points. Zadina puts up 12 points in the next 10 games... "It's because he's playing on the top line with Larkin and Mantha. Zadina sux!"... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Everyone knows what you think of Zadina. I was posting the above for those that haven't been blinded by their own bias against him since being drafted. You still felt the need to repeat the same drivel, to be sure that everyone knows "why" Zadina is about to / continue to put up some big points. 1 hour ago, krsmith17 said: In other words... "Zadina's about to tear s*** up, so I better get ahead of it, and come up with an excuse as to why before it happens"... You're suggesting I'm "getting ahead of this" and "coming up with excuses"... You really think I've been "getting ahead of this" for over a year now just to lay the ground work for "an excuse" for Zadina scoring on a top line? I mean if you really think that I'll take it as a compliment. But even I would doubt that I have that level of strategic foresight lol In reality I've been very harsh but fair with Zadina. I've praised him for what he does well and been critical of what he doesn't. And I've concluded he's a lot like Hudler. Not my fault you all have reduced that critiscm and comparison to Hudler to "Zadina sux", though to be fair I played along with it with my s*** posting If Zadina goes on a tear here good for him. I will gloat that I rightly predicted he's Hudlering the top line. If you wanna equate that with he sux... well oh well I guess. I don't think Hudler sucked. I think he was a good but not great player. Edited December 20, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: You're suggesting I'm "getting ahead of this" and "coming up with excuses"... You really think I've been "getting ahead of this" for over a year now just to lay the ground work for "an excuse" for Zadina scoring on a top line? I mean if you really think that I'll take it as a compliment. But even I would doubt that I have that level of strategic foresight lol In reality I've been very harsh but fair with Zadina. I've praised him for what he does well and been critical of what he doesn't. And I've concluded he's a lot like Hudler. Not my fault you all have reduced that critiscm and comparison to Hudler to "Zadina sux", though to be fair I played along with it with my s*** posting If Zadina goes on a tear here good for him. I will gloat that I rightly predicted he's Hudlering the top line. If you wanna equate that with he sux... well oh well I guess. I don't think Hudler sucked. I think he was a good but not great player. The bold is exactly my point. THAT'S why you made the comparison once again. Make sure it was fresh in everyone's minds... Harsh? Yes. Fair? No. The only similarities between Zadina and Hudler is that they are left-handed wingers from the Czech Republic, drafted by the Detroit Red Wings. Hudler didn't crack the Wings full time until his age 22 season. Zadina is doing it 2 years younger and so far has much better production. Zadina is also a lot more of a complete player at the age of 20, than Hudler ever was throughout his career. Also, much higher hockey IQ. Hurdler's last season in Detroit is Zadina's floor. Hudler's 3rd season in Calgary is around what I expect out of Zadina through his prime years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 Zadina sucks. Erne is so hot right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: The bold is exactly my point. THAT'S why you made the comparison once again. Make sure it was fresh in everyone's minds... WHAT's why? An excuse? If I believe Zadina = Hudler how is that an excuse for anything? It would be right on par with my beliefs. I think you don't like my beliefs and ur butt hurt that I freely post them 8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: The only similarities between Zadina and Hudler is that they are left-handed wingers from the Czech Republic, drafted by the Detroit Red Wings. Hudler didn't crack the Wings full time until his age 22 season. Zadina is doing it 2 years younger and so far has much better production. Zadina is also a lot more of a complete player at the age of 20, than Hudler ever was throughout his career. Also, much higher hockey IQ. Hurdler's last season in Detroit is Zadina's floor. Hudler's 3rd season in Calgary is around what I expect out of Zadina through his prime years. But muh Zadina young Muh Zadina already betta than Huds Sure man. Why do you think he's more complete? Why do you think his hockey IQ is higher? I can tell you exactly why I disagree in paragraphs of critical detail, but I rarely get the same in return. I invite the analysis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 45 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: WHAT's why? An excuse? If I believe Zadina = Hudler how is that an excuse for anything? It would be right on par with my beliefs. I think you don't like my beliefs and ur butt hurt that I freely post them But muh Zadina young Muh Zadina already betta than Huds Sure man. Why do you think he's more complete? Why do you think his hockey IQ is higher? I can tell you exactly why I disagree in paragraphs of critical detail, but I rarely get the same in return. I invite the analysis. I don't think either of us need to get into paragraphs. It's been done several times now, and neither are going to change the others mind. We'll just have to wait for Zadina to prove one of us right (me) / wrong (you)... His compete? He back checks hard / plays hard every shift. That, you've admitted yourself. Something Hudler never really did much of. His hockey IQ? That's a little harder to describe, but just making the right plays and being in the right spots more often than not. Two of these attributes have been used to describe Zadina by much smarter people than myself... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, krsmith17 said: I don't think either of us need to get into paragraphs. It's been done several times now, and neither are going to change the others mind. We'll just have to wait for Zadina to prove one of us right (me) / wrong (you)... His compete? He back checks hard / plays hard every shift. That, you've admitted yourself. Something Hudler never really did much of. His hockey IQ? That's a little harder to describe, but just making the right plays and being in the right spots more often than not. Two of these attributes have been used to describe Zadina by much smarter people than myself... Although there isn't an established agreed-upon definition of hockey IQ, I imagine I would define it as how quickly a player can process a situation they're in. This is highly related to anticipating plays, which allows players to keep up with, or get ahead of the play, and get themselves in a position to more effectively use their stick skills, shot, body, etc.. This is distinct from, but not unrelated to, decision making, which is what the player does once they process the situation. A player can have good decision-making ability but not good IQ and vice-versa. However I would posit that IQ is the crux of a good NHL hockey player: A player can be elite without an elite shot or strength or skating, but they can't be elite without elite IQ. Whenever I'm watching Zadina I find that in my mind I'm constantly rewarding him for not messing up, rather than for making good plays. So I tried applying the same standard to Ehn: Not only does Ehn not make many mistakes, he makes a lot of slick little low-key smart decisions that I would be thrilled to see Zadina making, and this is Christoffer freaking Ehn, the gold standard of average checking line fringe NHLer we're talking about. What I notice about Zadina is that when he doesn't have the puck, he's always chasing the play. At first glance it looks like he's not a good enough skater to make it to the play in time... but then you see him flying down the ice. He's not slow of foot. IMO what is going on there is he's not processing the situation fast enough to use his speed to consistently get involved in the play and get into open positions when his teammates have the puck. He doesn't look completely lost, he looks just slow soemtimes. Now, I think his decision-making has improved as he's calmed down trying to force plays and do everything himself, but he still seems just as peripheral in the unfolding play as before. When he does have the puck he can use his skills and decision-making to make decent plays sometimes, but he never generates plays, and I think a lot of that has to do with IQ. He loses the puck way too easily, and while that can be fixed, I still don't think his play away from the puck has proven improvable enough for him to be considered a future elite forward. This is in contrast to players like Bertuzzi, and even Mantha and Athanasiou. Athanasiou is a good example of a player that can process the play well but doesn't necessarily make great decisions, often forcing a play. Which I imagine is why he often sticks to his run and gun role. And he's actually smart to adapt his game that way. Mantha also seems to have the competency to be a dominant player but there are other mental blockages stopping him from playing at that level 100% of the time. I do think this year he's been much more consistently great though. But Bertuzzi is the main one I want to discuss because he's a prime example of a player that's average in his skating, shooting, and stick skills, but his IQ is so through the roof that he's consistently effective. He's by no means a great offensive talent, yet he still consistently generates offense just by getting to the right parts of the ice to make the play. To address a very common response to worry about our prospects, Zadina specifically, I wonder how improvable hockey IQ really is. I'm extremely suspicious about claims that such a complex and automatic judgment process can be systematically developed like decision-making or skating can. If it is the case that IQ mostly "is what it is" then the whole spiel about "he's only 20"/"give him time"/"be patient" doesn't apply because his IQ has already shown to be, in my opinion at least, inadequate. The overarching point, though, is that for the most part (I think) Zadina hasn't shown the IQ we should expect given the ceilings most of us have set for him at the draft. In regards to his defense I think we agree much more here. He's much more of a two-way presence than Hudler ever was. But again, I come back to IQ. Is he ever gonna have the IQ to process the game defensively like Z, Dats, Bertuzzi, Larkin do? Personally I don't see it. In regards to the Hudler comaprison more fully, they're both small, not particularly slow or fast, both have nice shots, and both need strong linemates to set them up. This doesn't make them useless players, you just have know how to use that type of player. They're never going to be Kane or Kucherov style wingers who can drive play, but they could be useful next to a Larkin or Gaudreau. Edited December 20, 2019 by ChristopherReevesLegs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: Although there isn't an established agreed-upon definition of hockey IQ, I imagine I would define it as how quickly a player can process a situation they're in. This is highly related to anticipating plays, which allows players to keep up with, or get ahead of the play, and get themselves in a position to more effectively use their stick skills, shot, body, etc.. This is distinct from, but not unrelated to, decision making, which is what the player does once they process the situation. A player can have good decision-making ability but not good IQ and vice-versa. However I would posit that IQ is the crux of a good NHL hockey player: A player can be elite without an elite shot or strength or skating, but they can't be elite without elite IQ. Whenever I'm watching Zadina I find that in my mind I'm constantly rewarding him for not messing up, rather than for making good plays. So I tried applying the same standard to Ehn: Not only does Ehn not make many mistakes, he makes a lot of slick little low-key smart decisions that I would be thrilled to see Zadina making, and this is Christoffer freaking Ehn, the gold standard of average checking line fringe NHLer we're talking about. What I notice about Zadina is that when he doesn't have the puck, he's always chasing the play. At first glance it looks like he's not a good enough skater to make it to the play in time... but then you see him flying down the ice. He's not slow of foot. IMO what is going on there is he's not processing the situation fast enough to use his speed to consistently get involved in the play and get into open positions when his teammates have the puck. He doesn't look completely lost, he looks just slow soemtimes. Now, I think his decision-making has improved as he's calmed down trying to force plays and do everything himself, but he still seems just as peripheral in the unfolding play as before. When he does have the puck he can use his skills and decision-making to make decent plays sometimes, but he never generates plays, and I think a lot of that has to do with IQ. He loses the puck way too easily, and while that can be fixed, I still don't think his play away from the puck has proven improvable enough for him to be considered a future elite forward. This is in contrast to players like Bertuzzi, and even Mantha and Athanasiou. Athanasiou is a good example of a player that can process the play well but doesn't necessarily make great decisions, often forcing a play. Which I imagine is why he often sticks to his run and gun role. And he's actually smart to adapt his game that way. Mantha also seems to have the competency to be a dominant player but there are other mental blockages stopping him from playing at that level 100% of the time. I do think this year he's been much more consistently great though. But Bertuzzi is the main one I want to discuss because he's a prime example of a player that's average in his skating, shooting, and stick skills, but his IQ is so through the roof that he's consistently effective. He's by no means a great offensive talent, yet he still consistently generates offense just by getting to the right parts of the ice to make the play. To address a very common response to worry about our prospects, Zadina specifically, I wonder how improvable hockey IQ really is. I'm extremely suspicious about claims that such a complex and automatic judgment process can be systematically developed like decision-making or skating can. If it is the case that IQ mostly "is what it is" then the whole spiel about "he's only 20"/"give him time"/"be patient" doesn't apply because his IQ has already shown to be, in my opinion at least, inadequate. The overarching point, though, is that for the most part (I think) Zadina hasn't shown the IQ we should expect given the ceilings most of us have set for him at the draft. In regards to his defense I think we agree much more here. He's much more of a two-way presence than Hudler ever was. But again, I come back to IQ. Is he ever gonna have the IQ to process the game defensively like Z, Dats, Bertuzzi, Larkin do? Personally I don't see it. In regards to the Hudler comaprison more fully, they're both small, not particularly slow or fast, both have nice shots, and both need strong linemates to set them up. This doesn't make them useless players, you just have know how to use that type of player. They're never going to be Kane or Kucherov style wingers who can drive play, but they could be useful next to a Larkin or Gaudreau. I didn't think either of us needed to get into paragraphs... Apparently you did... I'm 6 beer deep right now, so I'll just say agree to disagree on the hockey IQ. I think that's one of Zadina's biggest strengths. He thinks the game at a high level on both sides of the puck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted December 22, 2019 On 12/20/2019 at 6:34 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said: The overarching point, though, is that for the most part (I think) Zadina hasn't shown the IQ we should expect given the ceilings most of us have set for him at the draft. I can respect that. I do feel like it's kinda nitpicking tho. 7 points through 12 games. Somehow only a -1, despite playing on a team that doesn't score goals and gives up 4+ goals a game. We can't really attribute that to pure athleticism, as we both agree that he isn't blessed with any significant physical advantages. And I don't feel "He's a very hard worker" is a satisfactory explanation. I would say the high IQ is there and that it simply isn't manifesting the way we might've hoped it would be manifesting by this point. It could be that Zadina's full potential is a reliable, quietly effective player who consistently makes the right play and finds a way to get the job done. Sort of like Zetterberg. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted December 22, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 3:01 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: I'm sitting this one out GTFO u Swiss jabroni Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted December 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Dabura said: GTFO u Swiss jabroni I like both players Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
