Robby Fabbri Extended

[krsmith17 7,191]

43 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

I agree on that a 1-year del would have been preferable but I dont think the market agrees with you on the money. 

The ONLY reason a one year deal would have been preferable, is so thag he would still be an RFA at the end of the contract.

34 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

"The 10 pts per million rule always applies except for when I say it doesn't"

okay

I know you're dumb, but c'mon man, not even you are this dumb... You can't seriously think that that same rule would apply to a defenseman, much less, a defensive defenseman...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

I have been Fabbri's biggest advocate. I heaped praise on Yzerman for being astute enough to acquire him in a great deal. I defended Fabbri up and down this board against you Zadina slappies.

But now that Fabbri is getting overpaid on a new contract from Yzerman, and I'm honest enough to admit it, I'm a troll?

Hoooooo boyyyyyy

Is this not exactly what Kip is talking about? Anyone who dares to disagree with Yzerman (and you) is now a troll who should get fuked...

Stimulating stuff guys

LOL

Edited August 27, 2020 by The 91 of Ryans

[Akakabuto 1,750]

Arguing this is an overpayment is not silly. But suggesting the deal should be at 1.5 m is.

Next time you guys go shopping for under garments make sure you buy those big white grannie panties because the small pink ones you got on right now keeps getting in a twist.

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I realize it's the same knee. I misspoke in the previous post. And I don't think I'm overplaying anything. He has NEVER played a full season. He played 30 games a year ago. Zero the year before. Only 51 the year before that. He can't stay healthy and he's never, ever, scored 40 NHL points in a season. That means, to me, that he should be at the very low end of the market and not at all near the top or average.

LOL never mind what Fabbri did in his most recent season, for his current employer. Just look at every season prior...

Bottom line is Fabbri was healthy this season, performed really well for this team, and all signs point to that continuing for the next two seasons. I hope he remains a Wing, because he's a solid player, in a pool of mediocre players, but if Yzerman decides to move him, there will be 20+ teams willing to pay for his services. You know why? Because he's a good player, on a good contract...

[kipwinger 8,524]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I have been around for a while and I've yet to see you "agree" with anyone. Stop being such a baby all of a sudden. 

You have an obvious anti-Yzerman bias and have the gall to say anyone that doesn't see this as a bad contract is some sort of Steve slappy. Why would I waste my time? 

Never said any of this, never called you or anyone a slappy for liking the Fabbri contract. I've consistently discussed ONLY the contract and not engaged in the name calling and petty baiting that you and others have tried to engage me in on this top.

And I don't have a "bias" against Yzerman. I don't think he's an especially good GM, but that's based on the evidence below and not some anti-Yzerman "feeling" I have about the guy. Do I think he's the worst GM in the league? No. But I don't feel like I need to bend over backward to defend the guy's every move given his track record.

• His teams have never won a Cup and have under performed expectations as often as they've met them.
• He walked on to a team with bona fide super stars already, especially at key positions and has never really "built" a team from a position like Detroit is in.
• He mishandled the Marty St. Louis situation, then lost the subsequent trade, then signed Ryan Callahan to a horrible contract to boot. Thus tripling down on his own stubbornness.
• But that's not the ONLY bad contract he signed. Boy howdy does he have some doozies under his belt (Carle, Garrison, Sustr, Callahan, Coburn).
• Add a smattering of bad trades (Perlini and Kaski just in the past year).

You don't have to agree with my reasons, but I DO have reasons. I'm not a child. I don't "like" or "dislike" players based on my feelings about them. Mainly because I don't have "feelings" about them. Guys who are good, and help the team, I "like" and guys who don't I feel otherwise about. And that goes for Yzerman too. He was a GREAT player. But that doesn't mean I "like" him as a GM. He hasn't proven (to me) that he's especially good at that. And I'm not willing to turn a blind eye to his short comings just because he was "The Captain".

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I know you're dumb, but c'mon man, not even you are this dumb... You can't seriously think that that same rule would apply to a defenseman, much less, a defensive defenseman...

Filppula - oh wait that doesn't count though right? Erne - I'm guessing he doesn't count either?

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Never said any of this, never called you or anyone a slappy for liking the Fabbri contract. I've consistently discussed ONLY the contract and not engaged in the name calling and petty baiting that you and others have tried to engage me in on this top.

And I don't have a "bias" against Yzerman. I don't think he's an especially good GM, but that's based on the evidence below and not some anti-Yzerman "feeling" I have about the guy. Do I think he's the worst GM in the league? No. But I don't feel like I need to bend over backward to defend the guy's every move given his track record.

• His teams have never won a Cup and have under performed expectations as often as they've met them.
• He walked on to a team with bona fide super stars already, especially at key positions and has never really "built" a team from a position like Detroit is in.
• He mishandled the Marty St. Louis situation, then lost the subsequent trade, then signed Ryan Callahan to a horrible contract to boot. Thus tripling down on his own stubbornness.
• But that's not the ONLY bad contract he signed. Boy howdy does he have some doozies under his belt (Carle, Garrison, Sustr, Callahan, Coburn).
• Add a smattering of bad trades (Perlini and Kaski just in the past year).

You don't have to agree with my reasons, but I DO have reasons. I'm not a child. I don't "like" or "dislike" players based on my feelings about them. Mainly because I don't have "feelings" about them. Guys who are good, and help the team, I "like" and guys who don't I feel otherwise about. And that goes for Yzerman too. He was a GREAT player. But that doesn't mean I "like" him as a GM. He hasn't proven (to me) that he's especially good at that. And I'm not willing to turn a blind eye to his short comings just because he was "The Captain".

Where to start. I'll pick just one.

Jim Rutherford (2 cups in the last 4 years) is a dumbass. Who said that? Now we're using cup wins as a metric for Yzerman? 

[kipwinger 8,524]

20 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

LOL never mind what Fabbri did in his most recent season, for his current employer. Just look at every season prior...

Bottom line is Fabbri was healthy this season, performed really well for this team, and all signs point to that continuing for the next two seasons. I hope he remains a Wing, because he's a solid player, in a pool of mediocre players, but if Yzerman decides to move him, there will be 20+ teams willing to pay for his services. You know why? Because he's a good player, on a good contract...

If you pay guys based on one successful season and ignore their track records you'll lose just as often as you win. Remember when Abby scored 40 pts (including 20 goals), got a 4 million dollar contract, and then reverted back to his former levels of production?  Yeah, me too.

Fabbri has not been able to string together EVEN TWO healthy, productive, NHL seasons. Which is why I said sign him to a one year deal and see if he can do what he's never done before. But up to his point I'm not willing to just assume he'll stay healthy. Why? Because he's never had two healthy seasons in a row at any point in his career.

14 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Where to start. I'll pick just one.

Jim Rutherford (2 cups in the last 4 years) is a dumbass. Who said that? Now we're using cup wins as a metric for Yzerman? 

I'm using Cups as ONE metric. Which is why I listed others. My points of view aren't based off one single piece of evidence. But I'm sure that was clear from my post.

Edit: And for the record, I DO think Jim Rutherford is a dumb*ss, and his dumb*ss has been MUCH more successful as a GM than Yzerman.

Edited August 27, 2020 by kipwinger

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

I'm using Cups as ONE metric. My points of view aren't based off one single piece of evidence. But I'm sure that was clear from my post.

Oh I just went with the first point you made. I can continue if you like? 

[kipwinger 8,524]

Just now, The 91 of Ryans said:

Oh I just went with the first point you made. I can continue if you like? 

You can debate them all if you want, but I genuinely don't want or need you to agree with me. I was simply pointing out that I have reasons for not thinking Yzerman is very good as a GM. And I only mentioned that because you accused me of having an anti-Yzerman bias. Again, I made that clear in the first post.

[krsmith17 7,191]

13 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Filppula - oh wait that doesn't count though right? Erne - I'm guessing he doesn't count either?

No. I've already stated why above. Catch up...

The only one that might be even the slightest bit similar is Erne, but he was acquire via trade, not signed. He's also a 4th line winger, at best. Fabbri is a 2nd line winger. I'm not sure why you would compare their production / contracts...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You can debate them all if you want, but I genuinely don't want or need you to agree with me. I was simply pointing out that I have reasons for not thinking Yzerman is very good as a GM. And I only mentioned that because you accused me of having an anti-Yzerman bias. Again, I made that clear in the first post.

He is just trying to Red Herring the board with his made up anti-Yzerman bias to distract from Fabbri's bad contract he can't defend.

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

No. I've already stated why above. Catch up...

The only one that might be even the slightest bit similar is Erne, but he was acquire via trade, not signed. He's also a 4th line winger, at best. Fabbri is a 2nd line winger. I'm not sure why you would compare their production / contracts...

Why did Yzerman give Filppula $3 mil then? I don't get it

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

Just now, kipwinger said:

You can debate them all if you want, but I genuinely don't want or need you to agree with me. I was simply pointing out that I have reasons for not thinking Yzerman is very good as a GM. And I only mentioned that because you accused me of having an anti-Yzerman bias. Again, I made that clear in the first post.

Well, if you don't think Yzerman's a good GM and you're (apparently) surrounded by people who think he is, that must get annoying eh? To the point where you over react to a pretty fuking vanilla signing. 

2 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

He is just trying to Red Herring the board with his made up anti-Yzerman bias to distract from Fabbri's bad contract he can't defend.

Why did Yzerman give Filppula $3 mil then? I don't get it

Well you'd pretty much be the expert on this bud

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If you pay guys based on one successful season and ignore their track records you'll lose just as often as you win. Remember when Abby scored 40 pts (including 20 goals), got a 4 million dollar contract, and then reverted back to his former levels of production?  Yeah, me too.

Abdelkader was a UFA. Very different situation, but if he were signed to a low risk (two year) contract, like Fabbri, that Abdelkader contract would have never been viewed as a bad contract either.

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Fabbri has not been able to string together EVEN TWO healthy, productive, NHL seasons. Which is why I said sign him to a one year deal and see what he do what he's never done before. But up to his point I'm not willing to just assume he'll stay healthy. Why? Because he's never had two healthy seasons in a row at any point in his career.

Fabbri will remain relatively healthy (70+ games), and be a productive (40+ points) middle six winger for the Wings over the next two seasons. If he does that, I think everyone would agree that it was a very good contract. That is what Yzerman and Fabbri are both likely betting on, and I think it's a more than reasonable bet to make.

Good contract.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Well you'd pretty much be the expert on this bud

It shouldn't matter who the GM is. A bad contract is a bad contract. You inserting Yzerman into everything doesn't change that.

[kipwinger 8,524]

5 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Well, if you don't think Yzerman's a good GM and you're (apparently) surrounded by people who think he is, that must get annoying eh? To the point where you over react to a pretty fuking vanilla signing. 

Well you'd pretty much be the expert on this bud

I don't think it was much of an overreaction. I said he was over paid and gave the reasons why. I stand by that. I also made clear that I didn't think it would hurt the team much, though I do think it may have some implication in future negotiations with guys like Mantha and Bert.

All of that seems pretty tame to me.

[krsmith17 7,191]

11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Why did Yzerman give Filppula $3 mil then? I don't get it

I don't f***ing know. If you remember, I was one of the few here that didn't like that signing... However, again, UFA vs RFA / age. These things matter in any negotiation...

[The 91 of Ryans 3,014]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't think it was much of an overreaction. I said he was over paid and gave the reasons why. I stand by that. I also made clear that I didn't think it would hurt the team much, though I do think it may have some implication in future negotiations with guys like Mantha and Bert.

 

Is this what you said? Well then, forgive me.   

[kipwinger 8,524]

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Abdelkader was a UFA. Very different situation, but if he were signed to a low risk (two year) contract, like Fabbri, that Abdelkader contract would have never been viewed as a bad contract either.

Fabbri will remain relatively healthy (70+ games), and be a productive (40+ points) middle six winger for the Wings over the next two seasons. If he does that, I think everyone would agree that it was a very good contract. That is what Yzerman and Fabbri are both likely betting on, and I think it's a more than reasonable bet to make.

Good contract.

Regardless of the "risk" if Abby had signed a 4 million dollar contract after one good year I'd be saying he got overpaid. Just like I'm saying it about Fabbri now. Neither player was worth that AAV based on one marginally successful season, and neither player has a track record of even THAT level of success.

You saying it doesn't make it so. If I'm a GM and I'm spending someone else's money to rebuild a team that's in the basement I need something more than that. I need a track record. And if you don't have a track record then you need to sign a "prove it" contract and show me.

You seem to be going on faith. That's fine for you I guess. As I said, I'm not willing to assume a guy will be healthy and productive if he's never shown he can do so in his 5 year career so far.

Edited August 27, 2020 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Regardless of the "risk" if Abby had signed a 4 million dollar contract after one good year I'd be saying he got overpaid. Just like I'm saying it about Fabbri now. Neither player was worth that AAV based on one marginally successful season, and neither player has a track record of even THAT level of success.

You saying it doesn't make it so. If I'm a GM and I'm spending someone else's money to rebuild a team that's in the basement I need something more than that. I need a track record. And if you don't have a track record then you need to sign a "prove it" contract and show me.

You seem to be going on faith. That's fine for you I guess. As I said, I'm not willing to assume a guy will be healthy and productive if he's never shown he can do so in his 5 year career so far.

Two years at a low cap hit, is basically a "prove it" contract though. He continues to play like he did last season, great contract. He loses a step, he can still easily be traded. He gets injured, he goes on LTIR, and it doesn't affect the team.

Could Yzerman have signed him to a one year contract? Maybe. Could he have signed him to a much lower cap hit? Doubtful. $2.5M is the lowest I think he could have signed him.

At the end of the day, I don't really care too much about the cap hit (within reason) though. I just want everyone (except Larkin and Mantha) signed to shortish-term deals. And no, this contract is not in any way going to affect the Mantha or Bertuzzi deals. Mantha should still come in around $6-7M, and Bertuzzi should still come in around $4.5-5.5M, depending on term for both...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't f***ing know. If you remember, I was one of the few here that didn't like that signing... However, again, UFA vs RFA / age. These things matter in any negotiation...

I'll give you a little clue: Yzerman overpays players

[kipwinger 8,524]

7 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Two years at a low cap hit, is basically a "prove it" contract though. He continues to play like he did last season, great contract. He loses a step, he can still easily be traded. He gets injured, he goes on LTIR, and it doesn't affect the team.

Could Yzerman have signed him to a one year contract? Maybe. Could he have signed him to a much lower cap hit? Doubtful. $2.5M is the lowest I think he could have signed him.

At the end of the day, I don't really care too much about the cap hit (within reason) though. I just want everyone (except Larkin and Mantha) signed to shortish-term deals. And no, this contract is not in any way going to affect the Mantha or Bertuzzi deals. Mantha should still come in around $6-7M, and Bertuzzi should still come in around $4.5-5.5M, depending on term for both...

I don't agree that it's low. Matter of fact that's exactly what I'm arguing against. I'm not sure why it would be doubtful that Yzerman could sign him for less though. Fabbri isn't arbitration eligible. Yzerman would only need to send him a 1 year, 1.5-1.75 million AAV qualifying offer. If Fabbri rejects it then he sits out for a year, which would almost certainly not want to do given how little hockey he's played and how much he's trying to get things back on track.

I'll be pretty annoyed if Bert and Mantha make anything close to the upper limits you've mentioned here. Neither of them have ever produced like a 5.5 or 7 million dollar player (respectively). Neither player has ever scored 50 pts. and they're not exactly super young anymore. Most players are at their peak around 25 years old. Not to say they start falling off at 25, but they don't typically dramatically increase their production either. Most just stay at that level for a few more years. I'd be very wary of giving Mantha or Bert money like they're Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin (on their final RFA deals) without them ever having produced at that level.

[Akakabuto 1,750]

So far we have compared Fabbris contract to Helm and Abdelkader. Why do I get the feelin ol' Dan Cleary will show up in this thread soon?

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

4 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

So far we have compared Fabbris contract to Helm and Abdelkader. Why do I get the feelin ol' Dan Cleary will show up in this thread soon?

Who cares who he’s compared to , not the biggest fan but we had a ton of cap space and its done with  ... he got overpaid but he’ll be gone before the deal ends 

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, Akakabuto said:

So far we have compared Fabbris contract to Helm and Abdelkader. Why do I get the feelin ol' Dan Cleary will show up in this thread soon?

Buying out Cleary's contract was discussed ad nauseam. Do you want to start talking about buying out Fabbri's already?? That was fast