Red Wings Brass Believes This Will Be An Extended Rebuild

[Gniwder 168]

4 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Not sure you even know what that means at this point. 

The kid has left Hudler in the dust as far as play without the puck goes. 

Without the puck he's definitely improved. But he's still a complimentary triggerman who can barely drive his own offense. He'll be dependent on his center his entire career. Right now he doesn't have a center who can feed him so he's on pace for a whopping 10 goals. Real good stuff.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

2 hours ago, Gniwder said:

Zadina is on a 30 some point pace. If I'm Yzerman I'm waiting for his first big standout season - where he comes in hot and goes on a 60 point pace at like 23 years old. Then I immediately Flip him at that deadline or draft for something better like a younger center or Dman like the Sergachev trade. Let anther team gamble on him becoming the next Hossa (he won't). Use the opportunity to salvage as many assets as we can.

Its a good thing your not gm , Larkin is on a 40 pt pace  why not wait till he gets 60 pts next season and flip him for a better younger C 

vrana and fabbri will be our next trade bait, zero logic in trading a 21 yr old sniper when you have passers like raymond and berggren coming up

[Gniwder 168]

2 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Its a good thing your not gm , Larkin is on a 40 pt pace  why not wait till he gets 60 pts next season and flip him for a better younger C 

vrana and fabbri will be our next trade bait, zero logic in trading a 21 yr old sniper when you have passers like raymond and berggren coming up

I'm absolutely FOR trading any of our players at their peak value. Including Larkin and Zadina.

The difference with Zadina is the pedigree around him. If Soderblom comes up the lineup and becomes a 50 pt winger, I consider that a great win awesome. There were very little expectations for this 6th round player to even reach the roster. If 6th overall Zadina only amounts to 50 pts we have a problem... But also because of his draft pedigree he has residual value surrounding him. If another team sees a 22/23 year old former top10 pick on a 50 pt pace they may be willing to fork over a lot for that. I'm saying pull that trigger if it comes. Zadina is never gonna carry this team.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

49 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

You're using the exact same strawman every Red Wing slappy uses when this discussion comes up...

I've never argued Zadina won't score points or play in the NHL. I've argued he's a one dimensional complimentary player who you should not consider a foundational piece of the roster. There's a big difference between Hudler on your roster scoring 60 pts, and Hossa on your roster scoring 60 pts. Zadina is the former, not the later.

If we can skip with the whole misrepresenting folks positions that would be more constructive. I know you know my actual position.

 

"Actual position" - that would be the opposite of everyone else. Pretty much always. By design. 

These things are hilarious: 

- Wings fan in 2021 thumbs his nose at the idea of having a 60 pt (anybody) winger

- the irony where you say he'll be a one-dimensional point producing winger when he's currently a one-dimensional defensive winger in a scoring role as we wait for the offense to come

 

51 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Without the puck he's definitely improved. But he's still a complimentary triggerman who can barely drive his own offense. He'll be dependent on his center his entire career. Right now he doesn't have a center who can feed him so he's on pace for a whopping 10 goals. Real good stuff.

This is completely wrong. In actuality he doesn't have a linemate that can convert on his feeds. Larkin ain't no "triggerman". 

[Gniwder 168]

23 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

"Actual position" - that would be the opposite of everyone else. Pretty much always. By design.

Except when it comes to Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Hronek, Seider, Bernier, Raymond, Glendening, Mantha, Erne, Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Smith, Cholowski, Lindstrom, Blashill, Berggren, Brome, Johansson, and countless other current/former players, sure.

23 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

These things are hilarious: 

- Wings fan in 2021 thumbs his nose at the idea of having a 60 pt (anybody) winger

- the irony where you say he'll be a one-dimensional point producing winger when he's currently a one-dimensional defensive winger in a scoring role as we wait for the offense to come

How long do we have to play the charade where we pretend he's some elite defensive all star in order to excuse his on ice performance?

I'm not interested in acquiring 60 pt wingers. I'm interested in acquiring elite building blocks to cement the foundation of this team. Anything else is expendable to acquire those blocks if the price is right. Zadina, Hronek, AA, Mantha, Tatar, Nyquist, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Larkin are all expendable in my eyes. The only player I consider an untouchable building block is Seider.  

Edited April 19, 2021 by Gniwder

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

29 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Except when it comes to Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Hronek, Seider, Bernier, Raymond, Glendening, Mantha, Erne, Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Smith, Cholowski, Lindstrom, Blashill, Berggren, Brome,

BS. You s*** all over Mantha at the height of his hype just to drive other people nuts. Now you're pumping him up because other fans liked the trade. It's what you do. And that's fine. Just admit it. Why can't you be a beacon of consistency and honesty?  Like me! 

29 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Except when it comes to Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Hronek, Seider, Bernier, Raymond, Glendening, Mantha, Erne, Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Smith, Cholowski, Lindstrom, Blashill, Berggren, Brome, Johansson, and countless other former players, sure.

How long do we have to play the charade where we pretend he's some elite defensive all star in order to excuse his on ice performance?

I'm not interested in acquiring 60 pt wingers. I'm interested in acquiring elite building blocks to cement the foundation of this team. Anything else is expendable to acquire those blocks if the price is right. Zadina, Hronek, AA, Mantha, Tatar, Nyquist, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Larkin are all expendable in my eyes. The only player I consider an untouchable building block is Seider.  

This is fine. I agree. But you still need scoring. And I don't think you realize the value of 60pts. The last full NHL season saw 29 wingers score 60 or more. Less than 1 per team. If you want one of these players you have to draft them unless you want to overpay for them in free agency (generalization). And if you draft them, guess what? They'll probably cost you a first round pick. That's the value of a 60pt winger. (Unless you're GMBM. Then you throw  another 60pt winger into the deal because you're touched)

Also, I personally am not playing charades or whatever. Just observing. Zadina having a good defensive game is important because it make him an all-situation 60 point winger vs a sheltered fringe 3rd line winger like Hudler. This is important. 

I'd be thrilled if Zadina becomes a reliable 60 pt winger. Would totally justify the pick. Statistically. 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by The 91 of Ryans

[Gniwder 168]

31 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

BS. You s*** all over Mantha at the height of his hype just to drive other people nuts. Now you're pumping him up because other fans liked the trade. It's what you do. And that's fine. Just admit it. Why can't you be a beacon of consistency and honesty?  Like me!

Bword please. I called Mantha Franzen 2.0 the day he was drafted and that's about as far as my pooping on him went. And oh look... he became exactly Franzen 2.0 like I predicted...

I'm not pumping Mantha up, he's doing that himself. I just disagree with everyone who think Yzerman "OmFG lOL FReAkiN fLeEcED da cApS" the trade is pretty fair in my eyes. Mantha has a lot more potential than Vrana does.

31 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

This is fine. I agree. But you still need scoring. And I don't think you realize the value of 60pts. The last full NHL season saw 29 wingers score 60 or more. Less than 1 per team. If you want one of these players you have to draft them unless you want to overpay for them in free agency (generalization). And if you draft them, guess what? They'll probably cost you a first round pick. That's the value of a 60pt winger. (Unless you're GMBM. Then you throw  another 60pt winger into the deal because you're touched)

Also, I personally am not playing charades or whatever. Just observing. Zadina having a good defensive game is important because it make him an all-situation 60 point winger vs a sheltered fringe 3rd line winger like Hudler. This is important. 

I'd be thrilled if Zadina becomes a reliable 60 pt winger. Would totally justify the pick. Statistically.

I'm playing fast and loose with the assessment "60 pt winger" here. The actual stipulation I'm making is that Zadina doesn't drive the offense. And I don't ever see him becoming a driver. Hell, he might even get 70 pts on a top line with our next Zetterberg or Datsyuk... but he will never BE Zetterberg or Datsyuk. And if it costs me x1 Zadina to get picks that lead to my next Zberg or Dats, better bet I'm gonna spend that Zadina.

Everytime our next big thing doesn't put up the offense we expect them to the fans sing the same song: "He's focusing on developing his game away from offense, look at his amazing defense now though.". It's the same clockwork BS excuse everytime. But the reality is that player isn't the selke caliber stalwart you're trying to shift the narrative towards. And he's also just not the offenive dynamo we hoped for either.

Everyone hopes(ed) Zadina will be our Elias Pettersson, but he's not. He's more similar to another Larkin/Mantha. Good, but not good enough to be a pillar for the future. And just like with Mantha I will be more than happy to trade him for the right price.

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Gniwder

[marcaractac 3,963]

22 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Bword please. I called Mantha Franzen 2.0 the day he was drafted and that's about as far as my pooping on him went. And oh look... he became exactly Franzen 2.0 like I predicted...

I'm not pumping Mantha up, he's doing that himself. I just disagree with everyone who think Yzerman "OmFG lOL FReAkiN fLeEcED da cApS" the trade is pretty fair in my eyes. Mantha has a lot more potential than Vrana does.

I'm playing fast and loose with the assessment "60 pt winger" here. The actual stipulation I'm making is that Zadina doesn't drive the offense. And I don't ever see him becoming a driver. Hell, he might even get 70 pts on a top line with our next Zetterberg or Datsyuk... but he will never BE Zetterberg or Datsyuk. And if it costs me x1 Zadina to get picks that lead to my next Zberg or Dats, better bet I'm gonna spend that Zadina.

Everytime our next big thing doesn't put up the offense we expect them to the fans sing the same song: "He's focusing on developing his game away from offense, look at his amazing defense now though.". It's the same clockwork BS excuse everytime. But the reality is that player isn't the selke caliber stalwart you're trying to shift the narrative towards. And he's also just not the offenive dynamo we hoped for either.

Everyone hopes(ed) Zadina will be our Elias Pettersson, but he's not. He's more similar to another Larkin/Mantha. Good, but not good enough to be a pillar for the future. And just like with Mantha I will be more than happy to trade him for the right price.

 

If Zadina is still producing similar offense when he hits 24/25, fine. But the kid is 21. Lets see what we have first. Because if he does grow into a 60 point winger and continues to improve defensively, we probably wanna keep him around. 

Mantha was traded because at his age, he is what he is. An established top six winger. An excellent addition to a contender who has aged out of our rebuild. The trade works because we get a player who can make up for most of Mantha's lost offense. Not to mention that Mantha was still an AHLer at Zadina's current age. 

[ely s 458]

I´m not 100% sure that you understand what developing talent is about. You argue Zadina is a one dimensional player but are also saying

1 hour ago, Gniwder said:

How long do we have to play the charade where we pretend he's some elite defensive all star in order to excuse his on ice performance? 

when he´s actually adding dimensions to his game and I haven´t read that anyone is saying he´s a defensive stalwart. He´s learning to play the right way, develop, create offense through defense. How can you say he´s not going to be a top player in this league when no one could expect than from a Datsyuk or Zetterberg at the age of twenty. You don´t know until you develop them properly. Just because he´s a #6 pick he´s not an automatic home run or bust. He´s a twenty year old talented kid, maybe is a future star, maybe not. Time will tell, writing him off already is far too early

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

43 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Bword please. I called Mantha Franzen 2.0 the day he was drafted and that's about as far as my pooping on him went. And oh look... he became exactly Franzen 2.0 like I predicted...

I'm not pumping Mantha up, he's doing that himself. I just disagree with everyone who think Yzerman "OmFG lOL FReAkiN fLeEcED da cApS" the trade is pretty fair in my eyes. Mantha has a lot more potential than Vrana does.

I'm playing fast and loose with the assessment "60 pt winger" here. The actual stipulation I'm making is that Zadina doesn't drive the offense. And I don't ever see him becoming a driver. Hell, he might even get 70 pts on a top line with our next Zetterberg or Datsyuk... but he will never BE Zetterberg or Datsyuk. And if it costs me x1 Zadina to get picks that lead to my next Zberg or Dats, better bet I'm gonna spend that Zadina.

Everytime our next big thing doesn't put up the offense we expect them to the fans sing the same song: "He's focusing on developing his game away from offense, look at his amazing defense now though.". It's the same clockwork BS excuse everytime. But the reality is that player isn't the selke caliber stalwart you're trying to shift the narrative towards. And he's also just not the offenive dynamo we hoped for either.

Everyone hopes(ed) Zadina will be our Elias Pettersson, but he's not. He's more similar to another Larkin/Mantha. Good, but not good enough to be a pillar for the future. And just like with Mantha I will be more than happy to trade him for the right price.

 

So you'd trade a good player for a potentially better player? That's a whooooooole lotta commotion and finger pointing just to make a fundamental point about hockey team management

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

1 hour ago, Gniwder said:

I'm absolutely FOR trading any of our players at their peak value. Including Larkin and Zadina.

The difference with Zadina is the pedigree around him. If Soderblom comes up the lineup and becomes a 50 pt winger, I consider that a great win awesome. There were very little expectations for this 6th round player to even reach the roster. If 6th overall Zadina only amounts to 50 pts we have a problem... But also because of his draft pedigree he has residual value surrounding him. If another team sees a 22/23 year old former top10 pick on a 50 pt pace they may be willing to fork over a lot for that. I'm saying pull that trigger if it comes. Zadina is never gonna carry this team.

Dude your giving up on zadina at 21 yrs of age but your coming up with scenarios of soderblom coming up and popping 50? We’re all excited with the guy and hope he becomes a steal and a great player but theres a better chance he amounts to nothing 

You do realize berggren and raymond who are elite players can benefit from havingnguys who can score like zadina can right? You want them to play with less talented players cause you think hes garbage? Again hes 6 pts behind larkin on a disaster lineup , surround them with better players and theyll produce ... jack eichel got 2 goals i think , with your logic if he was having the season hes having now at 21 youd be telling buffalo to ship him out asap

Ya sorry dude dont agree with this take ,zadina’s  got all the tools to hit 30+ Once we have a better roster and coach behind the bench

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

6 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So you'd trade a good player for a potentially better player? That's a whooooooole lotta commotion and finger pointing just to make a fundamental point about hockey team management

Yup lets keep trading top picks until we finally get a datsyuk and zetterberg ... in 2043 

[Gniwder 168]

57 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

If Zadina is still producing similar offense when he hits 24/25, fine. But the kid is 21. Lets see what we have first. Because if he does grow into a 60 point winger and continues to improve defensively, we probably wanna keep him around. 

Mantha was traded because at his age, he is what he is. An established top six winger. An excellent addition to a contender who has aged out of our rebuild. The trade works because we get a player who can make up for most of Mantha's lost offense. Not to mention that Mantha was still an AHLer at Zadina's current age. 

Mantha was traded because the wheels on the bus completely came off. Stopped trying. We all could see it. If he gave a crap he would've pumped his numbers and would still be around. And Yzerman would be saying the opposite of "this is gonna take longer than expected".

I believe I can assess a player at 21. If you feel you can't, okay I guess?

Just find it strange that you all love to assess 18 year olds prior to the draft but from 19-24 it's forbidden to do so.

52 minutes ago, ely s said:

I´m not 100% sure that you understand what developing talent is about. You argue Zadina is a one dimensional player but are also saying

when he´s actually adding dimensions to his game and I haven´t read that anyone is saying he´s a defensive stalwart. He´s learning to play the right way, develop, create offense through defense. How can you say he´s not going to be a top player in this league when no one could expect than from a Datsyuk or Zetterberg at the age of twenty. You don´t know until you develop them properly. Just because he´s a #6 pick he´s not an automatic home run or bust. He´s a twenty year old talented kid, maybe is a future star, maybe not. Time will tell, writing him off already is far too early

He's not a player I would build a team around. We need players we can build a team around. If we already had the foundational pieces he would be a welcome addition. But because we don't he immediately becomes expendable in an effort to find those pieces. Not sure how to better explain that to you. It's pretty straightforward.

41 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

So you'd trade a good player for a potentially better player? That's a whooooooole lotta commotion and finger pointing just to make a fundamental point about hockey team management

In our situation absolutely. I'm surprised you'd object strongly to this.

We don't need good players. We need building blocks.

I'm not trying to ice a good team. I'm trying to build a cup team. I think this is where many of you don't see eye to eye with me. If your goal is just to be competitive and make the playoffs then you won't like my takes. I want cups not playoff appearances.

40 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Dude your giving up on zadina at 21 yrs of age but your coming up with scenarios of soderblom coming up and popping 50? We’re all excited with the guy and hope he becomes a steal and a great player but theres a better chance he amounts to nothing 

You do realize berggren and raymond who are elite players can benefit from havingnguys who can score like zadina can right? You want them to play with less talented players cause you think hes garbage? Again hes 6 pts behind larkin on a disaster lineup , surround them with better players and theyll produce ... jack eichel got 2 goals i think , with your logic if he was having the season hes having now at 21 youd be telling buffalo to ship him out asap

Ya sorry dude dont agree with this take ,zadina’s  got all the tools to hit 30+ Once we have a better roster and coach behind the bench

Soderblom is completely a hypothetical. How are you missing the point here? Exchange his name for any untested prospect dippy

Buffalo is gonna ship out Eichel ASAP. And we should trade Larkin too. He ain't that good. Berggren and Raymond have a whole lot to prove before they get deemed ELITE. And if either are elite level good they won't need a Zadina to produce. Elite building block players can make all their teammates look good. And make players like Abdelkader earn unfair contracts. Zadina is more in line with Abdelkader. He's dependant on his teammates for production. Completely expendable.

34 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Yup lets keep trading top picks until we finally get a datsyuk and zetterberg ... in 2043 

That's the idea. I'm not comfortable moving forward until Seider has at least two forwards with him who are elite level offensive drivers. That's what it takes to build a perennial championship team. If that means wheeling and dealing until Seider is 30 I'm completely okay with that. But hopefully we get those players sooner than that.

 

Who else needs to be dunked on today?

Edited April 19, 2021 by Gniwder

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I'll say this about Zadina.  He's better than Barrett Hayton.  

[Akakabuto 1,863]

5 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

I'll say this about Zadina.  He's better than Barrett Hayton.  

Kotkaniemi too.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

11 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

 

In our situation absolutely. I'm surprised you'd object strongly to this.

We don't need good players. We need building blocks.

I'm not trying to ice a good team. I'm trying to build a cup team. I think this is where many of you don't see eye to eye with me. If your goal is just to be competitive and make the playoffs then you won't like my takes. I want cups not playoff appearances.

I don't. Ya dingus

There's a giant chasm of space between "Zadina is awful" (your words) and "I'd trade him for another crack at Zetterzuke"  But you can't function in this sensible realm. You need to take it to the margins. All. The. Time. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

17 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

I believe I can assess a player at 21. If you feel you can't, okay I guess?

Just find it strange that you all love to assess 18 year olds prior to the draft but from 19-24 it's forbidden to do so.

People assess 18 year old players by their potential, not what they can do in the NHL right then and there. The same applies when assessing a player at 21. 

Nobody says you cannot assess players at 21. We're simply saying your assessment of Zadina is very premature. PLENTY of players have gone down a similar path breaking into the NHL. Top 5 picks included. 

It's not that you can assess players and nobody else can. Your assessments are simply one-dimensional. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

7 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

>You can assess a player
>But it's just premature and I won't take it seriously

Stop beating around the bush and say you don't think I can assess the player

If you have a problem with my assessment address the assessment. But I'm betting you won't. I'm betting you'll just say something equivalent to "it's too early to tell". Perpetual fence sitters scared of a real opinion.

But guaranteed if I gave you my assessment of Seider... praising him at 20 you would give it a like and stimulate yourself. You don't have a problem with me assessing players too young. You have a problem with me assessing players too young negatively. You biased ass yes man hack.

 

I did address your assessment of Zadina. It's premature and wrong. He's played ~75 and has shown plenty of growth. He will continue to grow over the next 75 games and beyond. That's the part you're too short-sighted to see. The evidence does not support your assessment.

If Seider showed growing pains, and stick up for him too. If Seider is your standard of players to not trade, we'll end up with 2-3 core pieces over the next 10 years and nobody to play with them. 

[Akakabuto 1,863]

***TRIGGER WARNING***

 

 

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

We need MORE GOALS from Zadina.  

[Gniwder 168]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

 

I did address your assessment of Zadina. It's premature and wrong. He's played ~75 and has shown plenty of growth. He will continue to grow over the next 75 games and beyond. That's the part you're too short-sighted to see. The evidence does not support your assessment.

If Seider showed growing pains, and stick up for him too. If Seider is your standard of players to not trade, we'll end up with 2-3 core pieces over the next 10 years and nobody to play with them. 

Thanks for quoting me. Matt is in here deleting my posts. Matt go back to be an absentee website owner plz. We only require your interference when you let your deadbeat website go down for an entire month.

So if I said "Zadina is doing amazing and really developing his D game. It's clear the offense WILL come and he will be a tremendous winger" you would call that premature and wrong? Right?

[Gniwder 168]

1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

We need MORE GOALS from Zadina.  

"Im gonna fill the nets with pucks"

>Scores a 15 goal a year pace

Good news, we successfully replaced Thomas Vanek

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

15 minutes ago, Gniwder said:

Thanks for quoting me. Matt is in here deleting my posts. Matt go back to be an absentee website owner plz. We only require your interference when you let your deadbeat website go down for an entire month.

So if I said "Zadina is doing amazing and really developing his D game. It's clear the offense WILL come and he will be a tremendous winger" you would call that premature and wrong? Right?

Weird. I mean your posts were dumb but not really inappropriate. 

[Gniwder 168]

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Weird. I mean your posts were dumb but not really inappropriate. 

I mean I called you a moron for saying "awful" was a bad assessment of an "awful #6 pick". I'm sorry. I think your opinions are awful, but that doesn't mean I think you're completely useless, much like Zadina.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

Just now, Gniwder said:

I mean I called you a moron for saying "awful" was a bad assessment of an "awful #6 pick". I'm sorry. I think your opinions are awful, but that doesn't mean I think you're completely useless, much like Zadina.

Oh. lol I missed that. That shouldn't have been removed. Like I said, dumb, but not inappropriate.