New New Prospects Thread

[kipwinger 8,756]

I understand being critical of sports/hockey media in general, but I don't really understand the specific criticism of Pronman. He's no oracle, but he personally scouts hundreds of players all over the world year after year. People gush over Bob McKenzie and Craig Button and they don't do that. They're not freezing their asses off watching s***ty U18 games in Czechia or whatever. Pronman does.

Does that mean he's always right? No. But it does mean that his takes are his own, and they're the product of his own personal evaluation process. What's that worth (you might ask)? Well, he did get Seider wrong (as did pretty much everyone else). But he's the ONLY person that got the Slafkovsky/Shane Wright draft correct and that was a HUGE take that nobody else was even close on. Pronman predicted (Slafkovsky, Jiricek, Cooley, and Wright) and the actual draft was nearly identical (swap Jiricek for the other top RHD Simon Nemec). That's quite a take to stake your professional reputation on.

IMO Pronman is better than most talent evaluators because he puts the work in. Quite a few others with similar (or higher) reputations don't do the work he does. I'm much more critical of guys like Wheeler, Button, or Chris Peters (FloHockey) who are very wrong, year after year, without any of the successes that Pronman has had. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by kipwinger

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

5 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I understand being critical of sports/hockey media in general, but I don't really understand the specific criticism of Pronman. He's no oracle, but her personally scouts hundreds of players all over the world year after year. People gush over Bob McKenzie and Craig Button and they don't do that. They're not freezing their asses off watching s***ty U18 games in Czechia or whatever. Pronman does.

Does that mean he's always right? No. But it does mean that his takes are his own, and they're the product of his own personal evaluation process. What's that worth (you might ask)? Well, he did get Seider wrong (as did pretty much everyone else). But he's the ONLY person that the the Slafkovsky/Shane Wright draft correct and that was a HUGE take that nobody else was even close on. Pronman predicted (Slafkovsky, Jiricek, Cooley, and Wright) and the actual draft was nearly identical (swap Jiricek for the other top RHD Simon Nemec). That's quite a take to stake your professional reputation on.

IMO Pronman is better than most talent evaluators because he puts the work in. Quite a few others with similar (or higher) reputations don't do the work he does. I'm much more critical of guys like Wheeler, Button, or Chris Peters (FloHockey) who are very wrong, year after year, without any of the successes that Pronman has had. 

Yes. Wheeler, to me, just comes off as your typical smug social media guy who a) is never right b) doesn't care c) digs his feet in and re-ups on his bad takes d) has no desire to improve or admit that he's a whack mofo

McKenzie and Button? Those guys just have a few scouts they trust that are feeding them info. 

 

 

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Yes. Wheeler, to me, just comes off as your typical smug social media guy who a) is never right b) doesn't care c) digs his feet in and re-ups on his bad takes d) has no desire to improve or admit that he's a whack mofo

McKenzie and Button? Those guys just have a few scouts they trust that are feeding them info. 

 

 

 

I prefer this over bimbo land, aka Helen St. James.

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I understand being critical of sports/hockey media in general, but I don't really understand the specific criticism of Pronman. He's no oracle, but he personally scouts hundreds of players all over the world year after year. People gush over Bob McKenzie and Craig Button and they don't do that. They're not freezing their asses off watching s***ty U18 games in Czechia or whatever. Pronman does.

Does that mean he's always right? No. But it does mean that his takes are his own, and they're the product of his own personal evaluation process. What's that worth (you might ask)? Well, he did get Seider wrong (as did pretty much everyone else). But he's the ONLY person that got the Slafkovsky/Shane Wright draft correct and that was a HUGE take that nobody else was even close on. Pronman predicted (Slafkovsky, Jiricek, Cooley, and Wright) and the actual draft was nearly identical (swap Jiricek for the other top RHD Simon Nemec). That's quite a take to stake your professional reputation on.

IMO Pronman is better than most talent evaluators because he puts the work in. Quite a few others with similar (or higher) reputations don't do the work he does. I'm much more critical of guys like Wheeler, Button, or Chris Peters (FloHockey) who are very wrong, year after year, without any of the successes that Pronman has had. 

Coreys either a moron that trashes players he never even scouts, or hes a moron that got Seider way wrong.

I also love that he scouts hundreds of players and braves the bitter cold of Czechia, but claims he never bothered to scout Seider, a player ranked in the 1st round.

I call him Dorkey Wrongman

 

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Coreys either a moron that trashes players he never even scouts, or hes a moron that got Seider way wrong.

I also love that he scouts hundreds of players and braves the bitter cold of Czechia, but claims he never bothered to scout Seider, a player ranked in the 1st round.

I call him Dorkey Wrongman

 

Where did Pronman say he "never bothered to scout" Seider? I'm genuinely unfamiliar with that piece of info. According to this article (by Pronman) it sure seems like he scouted him.

"Moritz Seider, RHD, Detroit

Seider was a unique evaluation in 2019. He played in the Deutsche Eishockey Liga (DEL), not a league many were used to contextualizing top-10 picks in at the time. His club in Mannheim was very strong, and he didn’t receive a ton of ice time or power-play opportunity. You still saw this huge, mobile, competitive defenseman with some puck game and it was clear he was a very good prospect. Whether he had the offensive upside to be a true top-end prospect was the question for myself and a lot of NHL scouts. I rated him as a mid-first-rounder.

There probably wasn’t the evidence at the time to support what he’s done offensively since then, but there was evidence to suggest he was going to be an excellent two-way defenseman. Seider went to the U20 B pool that winter and was the clear best defenseman, helping elevate Germany to the A pool. Even that, while impressive, is not usually indicative of an elite prospect.

His world championship was different. He showed up for Germany versus some of the best players in the world and didn’t look like a fish out of water. It was around that time I started to hear from NHL scouts that this player was for real, and it was here that I erred in not valuing how good he looked for a U18 defenseman at arguably the second-highest level behind the NHL. I don’t think I would with that information have moved him up to a top-five range as he’d go now in a redraft, but he should have been rated as a very reasonable top-10 pick."

https://theathletic.com/2952636/2021/11/16/pronman-nhl-prospects-i-was-wrong-about-the-2021-22-edition/

Edited July 20, 2023 by kipwinger

[bIueadams 776]

4 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Where did Pronman say he "never bothered to scout" Seider? I'm genuinely unfamiliar with that piece of info. According to this article (by Pronman) it sure seems like he scouted him.

"Moritz Seider, RHD, Detroit

Seider was a unique evaluation in 2019. He played in the Deutsche Eishockey Liga (DEL), not a league many were used to contextualizing top-10 picks in at the time. His club in Mannheim was very strong, and he didn’t receive a ton of ice time or power-play opportunity. You still saw this huge, mobile, competitive defenseman with some puck game and it was clear he was a very good prospect. Whether he had the offensive upside to be a true top-end prospect was the question for myself and a lot of NHL scouts. I rated him as a mid-first-rounder.

There probably wasn’t the evidence at the time to support what he’s done offensively since then, but there was evidence to suggest he was going to be an excellent two-way defenseman. Seider went to the U20 B pool that winter and was the clear best defenseman, helping elevate Germany to the A pool. Even that, while impressive, is not usually indicative of an elite prospect.

His world championship was different. He showed up for Germany versus some of the best players in the world and didn’t look like a fish out of water. It was around that time I started to hear from NHL scouts that this player was for real, and it was here that I erred in not valuing how good he looked for a U18 defenseman at arguably the second-highest level behind the NHL. I don’t think I would with that information have moved him up to a top-five range as he’d go now in a redraft, but he should have been rated as a very reasonable top-10 pick."

https://theathletic.com/2952636/2021/11/16/pronman-nhl-prospects-i-was-wrong-about-the-2021-22-edition/

I might be remembering wrong. He may have said something like "I didn't scout him enough" or "didn't watch enough tape". Regardless, it's even worse if he did scout him and got it wrong that badly. SY took the #1 player in that draft and Corey Wrongman got it wrong again and again all summer about it.

 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Pronman is the man.  

[bIueadams 776]

Brian Duff from the Sabres broadcasts - which I've watched many of - is roughly the same height as Brad May, his former co-host. Probably an inch shorter than May. Former player May is listed at 6'1". So it's reasonable to assume Duff is 6'0".

Here is Wrongman next to Duff:

 

Brian is literally laughing at Dorkey because he is an absolute MANLET, who no one would ever take seriously if you were in the same room as him.

Judging by the photo, Wrongman is at best 5'5". He is a gnome. He should leave sports to men and go back to welcoming folks to the lolipop guild.

I shouldnt even have to dig into his pale translucent skin, that suggest he never goes outside, or his spindly little girl arms and flabby man tiddies poking out to say HAAYLO. Or his bad sloped posture. Brian Duff is a total twink, Dorkey here next to him makes Duff look like a friggin silverback. Oh and it looks like the lil weeaboo didn''t even bother to put on an undershirt either.... lol

This is the man you rely on to tell you who is good at physical sports? Hope he doesn't have to scout highschool matches or he might get picked on by freshmen bullies again.

Edited July 21, 2023 by bIueadams

[kipwinger 8,756]

13 hours ago, bIueadams said:

I might be remembering wrong. He may have said something like "I didn't scout him enough" or "didn't watch enough tape". Regardless, it's even worse if he did scout him and got it wrong that badly. SY took the #1 player in that draft and Corey Wrongman got it wrong again and again all summer about it.

 

Pronman mock drafted Seider going 13th. He went 6th. Does that count as "badly wrong"?

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Pronman mock drafted Seider going 13th. He went 6th. Does that count as "badly wrong"?

In a redraft seider is 1 not 6th

[kipwinger 8,756]

8 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

In a redraft seider is 1 not 6th

Agreed. But you didn't really answer the question. If you think someone is going 13th and they go 6th does that count (in your mind) as being badly wrong?

 

[bIueadams 776]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Agreed. But you didn't really answer the question. If you think someone is going 13th and they go 6th does that count (in your mind) as being badly wrong?

 

Yes especially when they point out how bad of a pick it was at 6th all summer

[kipwinger 8,756]

5 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Yes especially when they point out how bad of a pick it was at 6th all summer

Here's what Pronman said of the Seider draft when he did his "Draft Grades" article immediately following the 2019 Draft. Doesn't really seem like he's saying it's "bad" given the B grade, the fact that he thought Seider would be a top four defenseman, and that he explicitly says "I like Moritz Seider". Seems like he wasn't sure of the upside. But think what you want I guess.

Detroit Red Wings: B

Detroit had an interesting draft. They got talent. The debate over the next few years is did they get the right talent. I like Moritz Seider a lot, just not at No. 6. I like Antti Tuomisto, just not at No. 35. For what it’s worth, Detroit wasn’t the only team high on both those players, even if it wasn’t a consensus opinion. They had a lot of day two picks, as has been the case the past few years, and they added a lot to their farm system. I think Seider will be a quality top-four defenseman, Robert Mastrosimone and Albin Grewe play, Tuomisto has a good chance to play, and several other picks are on the radar. For the assets they had, was it enough, though? I have some skepticism, but time will tell. This is one of the most fascinating team classes of the past few years.

[bIueadams 776]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Here's what Pronman said of the Seider draft when he did his "Draft Grades" article immediately following the 2019 Draft. Doesn't really seem like he's saying it's "bad" given the B grade, the fact that he thought Seider would be a top four defenseman, and that he explicitly says "I like Moritz Seider". Seems like he wasn't sure of the upside. But think what you want I guess.

Detroit Red Wings: B

Detroit had an interesting draft. They got talent. The debate over the next few years is did they get the right talent. I like Moritz Seider a lot, just not at No. 6. I like Antti Tuomisto, just not at No. 35. For what it’s worth, Detroit wasn’t the only team high on both those players, even if it wasn’t a consensus opinion. They had a lot of day two picks, as has been the case the past few years, and they added a lot to their farm system. I think Seider will be a quality top-four defenseman, Robert Mastrosimone and Albin Grewe play, Tuomisto has a good chance to play, and several other picks are on the radar. For the assets they had, was it enough, though? I have some skepticism, but time will tell. This is one of the most fascinating team classes of the past few years.

Watch some of his videos

[kipwinger 8,756]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

Watch some of his videos

Link some for me to watch?

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

The fact is NOBODY knew Seider was going to be a shut down monster on draft day.  Only Yzerman.  Seider wasnt even sure of himself, as evidenced by his WTF surprise look when his name was called.

[bIueadams 776]

15 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Link some for me to watch?

Link to what?

[kipwinger 8,756]

4 hours ago, bIueadams said:

Link to what?

Videos in which Pronman bashes the Seider pick, as you’ve insinuated.

[bIueadams 776]

On 7/22/2023 at 11:13 AM, kipwinger said:

Videos in which Pronman bashes the Seider pick, as you’ve insinuated.

He and wheeler are on a buncha podcasts that summer bashing the pick. Look em up.

[kipwinger 8,756]

15 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

He and wheeler are on a buncha podcasts that summer bashing the pick. Look em up.

Which podcasts?

[bIueadams 776]

18 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Which podcasts?

ur asking me to provide u direct links to podcasts from over 2 years ago? Idk man you missed it. I'm not spending hours digging those up,, when you damn well kno every critic doubted the pick.

Edited July 23, 2023 by bIueadams

[kipwinger 8,756]

41 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

ur asking me to provide u direct links to podcasts from over 2 years ago? Idk man you missed it. I'm not spending hours digging those up,, when you damn well kno every critic doubted the pick.

Geez take it easy. I didn’t think it was too much to ask you to name a few podcasts you listened to enough to let them inform your opinion in this way. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by kipwinger

[bIueadams 776]

52 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Geez take it easy. I didn’t think it was too much to ask you to name a few podcasts you listened to enough to let them inform your opinion in this way. 

shut up ******

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

10 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

shut up ******

Fslur Rslur?

[bIueadams 776]

24 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Fslur Rslur?

N slur

My calling card