Official Downey On Waivers

[puckbags 863]

Vancouver - Brad Isbister/Jeff Cowan.

Those are all tough teams, with tough players and enforcers.

Ok I've seen it all now..Brad Isbister tough or an enforcer?..maybe in his junior days but the guy is a waste of oxygen now!! There are about 5 true enforcers in this league and the rest are just wannabes or guy's who drop the mitts occasionally.

[sticknmove 0]

Who is Carolina's enforcer? How about Nashville? Vancouver? Those teams have legitimate enforcers who regularly play? Who replaced Laraque for Edmonton?

I am back, haha i got in trouble for a naughty avatar I guess, good to seen were all grown ups here. It is a shame what they are doing to Downey, they mine as well of cut him. Moving on, its good to see the ****** bags are still doing what they do best, spewing out garbage illustrating their total ignorance of the NHL (besides Dats, Zetterberg, Lids, etc).

Carolina- Mike Commodore, Tim Gleason, Scott Walker

Nashville- (are you retarded? why would you drop Nashville's name?) Greg de Vries, Darcy Hordichuk, Jordin Tooto, Shea Webber.

Edmonton- Jean-Francois Jacques, Matt Greene, Sheldon Souray, Steve Saios

Vancouver- Kevin Bieska, Jeff Cowan, Alex Burrows, Brad Isbister

So all the above may not be enforcers but all the teams have more then a Dallas Drake on the roster willing to drop. Also, please stop naming 1-2 teams without a clear cut enforcer, even though every team in the league has more willing guys then the wings there are about 27 teams WITH a clear cut enforcer, can we talk about them? Anyways I am going to the game tonight and am bringing a sign, it is going to read "I told ya so" and you can look for me on tv holding it up when one of our guys gets blown the f*ck up. kthanks.

PS-feel free to flame me, I wont be reading it, nor will i be giving you tools who refer to enforcers as "useless" the time of day anymore. You are clearly dull when it comes to the specifics of hockey and it is a waste of time arguing with you

snootchie boochies

Edited October 6, 2007 by sticknmove

[esteef 2,679]

There haven't always been enforcers. The NHL was around for 40-50 years before the first real enforcer was brought into the fold (John Ferguson Sr.). Didn't hurt that he could play and ended up in the HOF. Or guys like Robinson and Gillies that were HOF talents, but also were the toughest SOBs on their respective dynasties. The Bullies took it to an extreme. IMO a lot of teams tried to copy one or the other format, but not every fighter can end up as good as Ferguson or Gilies. Or even Probert.

But to address the point at hand, don't Kenny, Scotty, Nill, Ilitch, Stevie, and Babcock full under the same class of guys that know more than you or I about building a team? They haven't iced an enforcer in years. Strange that.

True, which is what begs the question when so many others do. Strange indeed.

BTW, what's your av about

esteef

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Heh, I guess the term enforcer has gotten watered down a lot if Jed Ortmeyer is considered one. I always associated enforcers as guys people feared on the ice like Laraque and McGrattan, I don't think anyone fears Nicklas Wallin or Tim Gleason.

I'm not arguing whether or not these teams fight, I'm arguing semantics.

I never said Ortmeyer, Wallin or Gleason were enforcers. They are tough guys on teams with enforcers. Almost every team in the league has a legit enforcer and surronds that enforcer with a tough core of guys.

[norrisnick 1]

True, which is what begs the question when so many others do. Strange indeed.

BTW, what's your av about

esteef

And yet, very few teams are as successful as the Wings.

The av. http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45637

[Heaton 1]

I never said Ortmeyer, Wallin or Gleason were enforcers. They are tough guys on teams with enforcers. Almost every team in the league has a legit enforcer and surronds that enforcer with a tough core of guys.

Am I in the twilight zone? "Tough guys on teams with enforcers" none of the teams I mentioned have enforcers, none of the teams I mentioned have legit enforcers.

[daniel1 32]

Heh, I guess the term enforcer has gotten watered down a lot if Jed Ortmeyer is considered one. I always associated enforcers as guys people feared on the ice like Laraque and McGrattan, I don't think anyone fears Nicklas Wallin or Tim Gleason.

I'm not arguing whether or not these teams fight, I'm arguing semantics.

You make a good point here, the word "enforcer" has certainly changed meanings since Dave "The Hammer" Schultz and Dave "Cement Head" Semenko patrolled the wings and kept teams honest.

As much as I've enjoyed reading both sides of the argument put forth by my fellow LGW'ers I have to say that I think we are missing the true reason for having an enforcer on your team. I hate to use the "I've been there" argument, but I will anyways cause in this case I think it's essential to understanding my rationale.

It's not so much what an enforcer does on the ice that makes a difference to how his team plays, but rather the effect of knowing that the enforcer is there and how that changes the mindset and confidence level of his teamates. Fear is a funny thing, often it is the threat of violence that is more effective as an intimidation factor than any actual use of violence will ever be.

Having an enforcer on your team (and a competent one is better than one who looses all the time) changes the mindset and to some degree the confidence level of all the other players on his team. I tried to explain the psychological effect of carrying an enforcer to NN in another post, but I'm not sure he ever truly understood. NHL coaches and most GM's understand the reasoning (I know cause I've actually talked to some of them, former and current) and most sports psychologists will agree with the argument as well; confident players play up to their potential or beyond. A lack of confidence can result in players under performing, regardless of their skill or conditioning level. This is a tricky concept to define in a post and while I could write a dissertation on the subject, I doubt anyone would want to spend the time pouring over my research and findings in a 50 to 60 pager.

Just knowing that someone is there to "have your back" will in effect make you a better player due to your increased confidence level. This however affects the psyche of different players to different degrees. A fella like Shanahan for example probably wouldn't play any differently if he had 10 enforcers on his team or none. This has to due with Shanny's belief in his own ability to handle himself should the need arise. I think we can all agree his belief is well founded and justifiable too. However, we do not have a team of Shanny's out there folks. What we do have is some real skilled but much less aggressive players whose performance would benefit greatly from the knowledge that someone on our bench "has their back" when the threat of violence is imposed upon them. It is a purely psychological effect that does not even have to manifest itself in the literal translation of the enforcer role to be effective. Datsyuk or Hudler will play with more confidence if they believe that Downey is over there on the bench, a few scant feet away, to handle the rough stuff if the need arises. They want to believe this, and the reassurance that this belief brings elevates their play. It is the job of the coach to raise the play and get every ounce of ability and effort out of his players, and carrying an enforcer on your roster is another way of doing so.

[norrisnick 1]

You make a good point here, the word "enforcer" has certainly changed meanings since Dave "The Hammer" Schultz and Dave "Cement Head" Semenko patrolled the wings and kept teams honest.

As much as I've enjoyed reading both sides of the argument put forth by my fellow LGW'ers I have to say that I think we are missing the true reason for having an enforcer on your team. I hate to use the "I've been there" argument, but I will anyways cause in this case I think it's essential to understanding my rationale.

It's not so much what an enforcer does on the ice that makes a difference to how his team plays, but rather the effect of knowing that the enforcer is there and how that changes the mindset and confidence level of his teamates. Fear is a funny thing, often it is the threat of violence that is more effective as an intimidation factor than any actual use of violence will ever be.

Having an enforcer on your team (and a competent one is better than one who looses all the time) changes the mindset and to some degree the confidence level of all the other players on his team. I tried to explain the psychological effect of carrying an enforcer to NN in another post, but I'm not sure he ever truly understood. NHL coaches and most GM's understand the reasoning (I know cause I've actually talked to some of them, former and current) and most sports psychologists will agree with the argument as well; confident players play up to their potential or beyond. A lack of confidence can result in players under performing, regardless of their skill or conditioning level. This is a tricky concept to define in a post and while I could write a dissertation on the subject, I doubt anyone would want to spend the time pouring over my research and findings in a 50 to 60 pager.

Just knowing that someone is there to "have your back" will in effect make you a better player due to your increased confidence level. This however affects the psyche of different players to different degrees. A fella like Shanahan for example probably wouldn't play any differently if he had 10 enforcers on his team or none. This has to due with Shanny's belief in his own ability to handle himself should the need arise. I think we can all agree his belief is well founded and justifiable too. However, we do not have a team of Shanny's out there folks. What we do have is some real skilled but much less aggressive players whose performance would benefit greatly from the knowledge that someone on our bench "has their back" when the threat of violence is imposed upon them. It is a purely psychological effect that does not even have to manifest itself in the literal translation of the enforcer role to be effective. Datsyuk or Hudler will play with more confidence if they believe that Downey is over there on the bench, a few scant feet away, to handle the rough stuff if the need arises. They want to believe this, and the reassurance that this belief brings elevates their play. It is the job of the coach to raise the play and get every ounce of ability and effort out of his players, and carrying an enforcer on your roster is another way of doing so.

Hudler doesn't give two s***s about who is on the bench or who he's tangling with. He's gone nose to nose with Winchester, Kubina, etc... Guys that have a foot and 50lbs on him. He's fearless. Bad example.

[esteef 2,679]

And yet, very few teams are as successful as the Wings.

The av. http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45637

Overall success yes, but how many of those "successful" years could we have won the Cup had we been tougher, especially in the playoffs?

esteef

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Ok I've seen it all now..Brad Isbister tough or an enforcer?..maybe in his junior days but the guy is a waste of oxygen now!! There are about 5 true enforcers in this league and the rest are just wannabes or guy's who drop the mitts occasionally.

How about:

McGrattan

Laraque

Boogaard

Orr

Godard

Brashear

Koci

Peters

Parros

King

shall i go on? I couldve just stopped at 5 but that was way too easy

[norrisnick 1]

Overall success yes, but how many of those "successful" years could we have won the Cup had we been tougher, especially in the playoffs?

esteef

Tougher as in how we played in the '07 playoffs tougher or tougher as in randomly adding a Laraque/Neil to the mix?

If it's the former? Absolutely. The latter? Nope.

[Sepster 0]

As far as Homer, if he didn't wear extra armour to help him do his job, I'd respect him. If he had enough self-respect to physically respond to the people who cheapshot him and his teamates, I'd respect him. I would be willing to stand next to a grenade that was about to blow if I had special gear that would keep me from getting hurt, that doesn't make me tough..

WOW, that comment is just stunning. As others have said get a ******* grip.

I have no idea how long you've been a Wings fan or have closely follwed the team, but here is something to remember; when Homer was first brought over to the Wings and Bowman told him to make his trade in the crease area, Homer realized very quickly that he would take a lot of abuse. Getting tired of it he started to ask Joey Kocur to teach him how to fight. Wings management immediately recognized that 1) he would never be that good at it and 2) he much more valuable on the ice, so they stop him from learning.

To say you have no respect for Holmstrom because he doesn't fight back agaisnt all of the abuse he takes... thats absolutely insane.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

I think it is bull that he hasn't even touched skate to ice in a regular season game and is more than likely going to be shipped off. I don't think we will ever see him in a game for the Wings the rest of this season, or ever again for that matter. After all "our power plaa is our enforcer." By the way I an not saying that Downey is an enforcer, but he at least has the balls to defend himself and his teammates unlike most of our roster.

[sticknmove 0]

Am I in the twilight zone? "Tough guys on teams with enforcers" none of the teams I mentioned have enforcers, none of the teams I mentioned have legit enforcers.

Hudler doesn't give two s***s about who is on the bench or who he's tangling with. He's gone nose to nose with Winchester, Kubina, etc... Guys that have a foot and 50lbs on him. He's fearless. Bad example.

TO Heaton: YOU ARE A MORON, and absolute and total dolt.

TO Norris: You are a bigger moron, BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HUDLER. Those guys do not do anything for the same reason you would'nt do anything to say, a 2 year old who came up and kicked you in the shin. But thank you for the post, your complete incompetence is humorous

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Tougher as in how we played in the '07 playoffs tougher or tougher as in randomly adding a Laraque/Neil to the mix?

If it's the former? Absolutely. The latter? Nope.

Those are probably the best enforcers who can play in the game. With either one were a much tougher club. Were tougher with a Laraque or Neil then the way we played in the playoffs. Or my solution, have a bit of both. Having a tough guy makes other softer guys play tougher. Examples are Andy McDonald and Chris Kunitz who are pussys, but having a Parros or Moen and a Pronger or an O'donnell makes you play tougher because you know someones got your back. Thats the reason Maltby was so good for so long, he knew he could count on McCarty when it came to the rougher stuff.

[daniel1 32]

Hudler doesn't give two s***s about who is on the bench or who he's tangling with. He's gone nose to nose with Winchester, Kubina, etc... Guys that have a foot and 50lbs on him. He's fearless. Bad example.

Don't be naive. Jiri Hudler is no more "fearless" than you or I. Hudler isn't some comic book figure or mythical creation in a Greek legend; he's a human being. He's capable of fear just as much as anyone else. I would think this would be rather obvious in his reluctance to drop the mitts with anyone - he knows he'll get his ass kicked. His confidence level is affected just as much as anyone else on the bench who witnesses his teamates willingness to stand up for him. Perhaps some experience in the real world would benefit you rather than playing in cyberspace all day. Real fists hurt when they hit you buddy, having a 220lb enforcer stare you down and tell you he's gonna put you through the glass can affect anyone's play whether they are Super-Hudler or not.

[Dominator2005 558]

Thanks GOD we have BIG Sammy...

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/misc?url=...mp;Profile=1128

Edited October 6, 2007 by Dominator2005

[daniel1 32]

Those are probably the best enforcers who can play in the game. With either one were a much tougher club. Were tougher with a Laraque or Neil then the way we played in the playoffs. Or my solution, have a bit of both. Having a tough guy makes other softer guys play tougher. Examples are Andy McDonald and Chris Kunitz who are pussys, but having a Parros or Moen and a Pronger or an O'donnell makes you play tougher because you know someones got your back. Thats the reason Maltby was so good for so long, he knew he could count on McCarty when it came to the rougher stuff.

Agree with you I do. Let's go have a beer in a real bar, with real people, who will punch us in the nose if we insult them enough, lol I think the division of thoughts here on this subject comes down to those that have had some experience on the ice or in any reality setting with the situation which we are debating, and those who have none.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

TO Heaton: YOU ARE A MORON, and absolute and total dolt.

TO Norris: You are a bigger moron, BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HUDLER. Those guys do not do anything for the same reason you would'nt do anything to say, a 2 year old who came up and kicked you in the shin. But thank you for the post, your complete incompetence is humorous

I hate to tell you this but to be as big an ******* as I am, I think you have to put in just a wee bit more time here. You haven't earned the right to be as big a jerk off as you're coming off as.

snootchie boochies? Dude, I love Kevin Smith as much as the next guy but that died out like 5 years ago.

[esteef 2,679]

Real fists hurt when they hit you buddy, having a 220lb enforcer stare you down and tell you he's gonna put you through the glass can affect anyone's play whether they are Super-Hudler or not.

[norrisnick 1]

Don't be naive. Jiri Hudler is no more "fearless" than you or I. Hudler isn't some comic book figure or mythical creation in a Greek legend; he's a human being. He's capable of fear just as much as anyone else. I would think this would be rather obvious in his reluctance to drop the mitts with anyone - he knows he'll get his ass kicked. His confidence level is affected just as much as anyone else on the bench who witnesses his teamates willingness to stand up for him. Perhaps some experience in the real world would benefit you rather than playing in cyberspace all day. Real fists hurt when they hit you buddy, having a 220lb enforcer stare you down and tell you he's gonna put you through the glass can affect anyone's play whether they are Super-Hudler or not.

I repeat. Hudler is fearless. He knows he's not a good fighter so he doesn't fight. But he'll jaw and jab at anyone. He took a poke at Brad Winchester. And it doesn't affect his play.

'05-'06 AHL playoffs he gets run into the end boards face first and gets cut/busted up pretty bad early in the first game. He scored the OT winner that game and led the Griffins to the Conference finals. He'll play in high traffic areas. He'll go anywhere on the ice. He's not afraid of the opposing players. Considering his size, maybe he ought to be, but he just isn't.

Last pre-season Kubina crosschecked Hudler in the face and ended up getting suspended for a few games. This preseason Jiri was pushing and shoving in a scrum with? Kubina.

His 5-foot-9, 178-pound frame hasn't precluded him from venturing into the hard areas of the ice and taking a hit.

"I've always played against bigger guys and always will, I have no problem with it," Hudler said. "It's a challenge for me and I love it."

You're barking up the wrong tree with Hudler. Seriously.

[daniel1 32]

I repeat. Hudler is fearless. He knows he's not a good fighter so he doesn't fight. But he'll jaw and jab at anyone. He took a poke at Brad Winchester. And it doesn't affect his play.

'05-'06 AHL playoffs he gets run into the end boards face first and gets cut/busted up pretty bad early in the first game. He scored the OT winner that game and led the Griffins to the Conference finals. He'll play in high traffic areas. He'll go anywhere on the ice. He's not afraid of the opposing players. Considering his size, maybe he ought to be, but he just isn't.

Last pre-season Kubina crosschecked Hudler in the face and ended up getting suspended for a few games. This preseason Jiri was pushing and shoving in a scrum with? Kubina.

You're barking up the wrong tree with Hudler. Seriously.

Hudler is affected, so is every other player in the NHL, NBA, NFL, or CFL. Intimidation affects us all, whether you want to admit the fact that your idol is human or not. I don't care whether he calls Kubina names at recess or jaws with him: it does affect his play. Your reluctance to admit to the human condition is quite disconcerting. I had previously pictured you as someone with common sense, but I'm not sure how I can discuss anything with someone who refuses to acknowledge reality. Your posts are all starting to sound like "The moon is made of cheese! The moon really is made of cheese! I repeat, the moon is made of cheese!"

I don't wanna put you on ignore or anything cause you contribute some interesting ideas on other topics and you are certainly well read in other areas of the game, but this enforcer argument of yours is getting a tad ridiculous.

[Heaton 1]

Hudler is affected, so is every other player in the NHL, NBA, NFL, or CFL. Intimidation affects us all, whether you want to admit the fact that your idol is human or not. I don't care whether he calls Kubina names at recess or jaws with him: it does affect his play. Your reluctance to admit to the human condition is quite disconcerting. I had previously pictured you as someone with common sense, but I'm not sure how I can discuss anything with someone who refuses to acknowledge reality. Your posts are all starting to sound like "The moon is made of cheese! The moon really is made of cheese! I repeat, the moon is made of cheese!"

I don't wanna put you on ignore or anything cause you contribute some interesting ideas on other topics and you are certainly well read in other areas of the game, but this enforcer argument of yours is getting a tad ridiculous.

Don't state it as a fact without any facts to back it up. You're speculating, some players are just fearless, maybe Hudler is, maybe he isn't, but you can't throw out a blanket statement like without anything behind it. NN gave examples to back up his claim, you give nothing but opinion.

And don't throw the common sense thing out there or that you're objective or whatever else, it goes along the same lines of calling people homers. It's not about having common sense, it's about agreeing with you.

The only reason it's getting ridiculous for you is because he IS making sense and it's not the sense that you agree with.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Heaton

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

As far as Homer, if he didn't wear extra armour to help him do his job, I'd respect him. If he had enough self-respect to physically respond to the people who cheapshot him and his teamates, I'd respect him.

This is probably the most retarded thing I have ever heard in my life.

Hey guys, I'm a marine but I wear a bullet proof vest in battle so don't respect me OK?

[daniel1 32]

I hope the two of you someday find and enjoy the cheese you both believe to exist on the moon. Don't forget to bring crackers along to have with it.