To trade, or not to trade...

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Whether or not "we" are pleased based on the amount so close to the cap is ludicrous. Illitch spends the money; IIlitch gets a return.

and "we" pay ilitch

[Guest Crymson]

Markov hardly helps the need for grit at forward. I dont know the specifics of the cap money but what i do know is Holland was offering 4 million, possibly 4.5, to Shanahan. Money was there to make additions upfront. All i remember hearing was that Kenny would wait till the deadline to address these needs...well over the next 10 days is that time. If he's not willing to part with anything via trade then what, he's biding his time till next offseason?

Holland knows more about management than you do. Plus, he works for Illitch, and Illitch wants revenue. Etc.

Holland is not a dolt. Stop pretending that you know s*** about what goes on in trades and such. If Holland were doing a crappy job, he'd be fired.

and "we" pay ilitch

I don't get your point--does Illitch increase ticket prices proportionally to the payroll? Uhm, no. The team turned a profit when the payroll was $75m.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Hum ho, well, let's look at the changes. A completely different style of play, a better starting 6 on D, a better starting goalie, and pretty much everyone good besides Shanahan re-signed. The result? Hum ho, a mere 3rd in the league. Quit your bitching.

you seriously have a problem. do you take this personally? people are allowed to express their view, it has nothing to do with you. relax!

[Guest Crymson]

This team is bult to beat any team in a one game series.

In best out of 7,we always get outmuscled and the coaching staff cannot adapt to the oppositions' strategies.

Oh, ok.. and you are basing this "always" on what? Do you forget that, three season ago, Scotty Bowman was coach? Do you call him a s***ty coach for his first-round exits? Ooook.

Bottom line: you have no right to feel entitled. The vast majority of you do nothing more than watch the games on TV. You get the game channels as part of the cable package you'd have anyway. Even if you do go to games, etc.--the NHL and the Red Wings are a business. If you don't like their product, stop buying it. End of story.

you seriously have a problem. do you take this personally? people are allowed to express their view, it has nothing to do with you. relax!

I do have a serious problem with bulls***. I suppose you could say that my tolerance is rather low. What, do you ask, do I classify as drivel in this particular case? Easy: people who come onto the boards to merely ***** and moan, act entitled, and do whatever they can to make the situation seem hopeless.

[Flip-check 6]

I do have a serious problem with bulls***. I suppose you could say that my tolerance is rather low.

Crymson, you and some sunny California days need to hook up. The weather on the west coast can be idyllic.

you seriously have a problem. do you take this personally? people are allowed to express their view, it has nothing to do with you. relax!

#13's loyal friend, read this for further understanding into "flying into passionate messageboard frenzies" ::

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Holland knows more about management than you do. Plus, he works for Illitch, and Illitch wants revenue. Etc.

Holland is not a dolt. Stop pretending that you know s*** about what goes on in trades and such. If Holland were doing a crappy job, he'd be fired.

I don't get your point--does Illitch increase ticket prices proportionally to the payroll? Uhm, no. The team turned a profit when the payroll was $75m.

You know, Illitch also stuck it out for quite a long time with another GM in his other sport. Does the name Randy Smith ring a bell? So dont give me that crap about how just because Illitch still employs him means he's the almighty and hes great. The whole what has Holland REALLY done here argument has been done time and time again, and i dont feel like getting into it. Bottomline though, he's credited for alot of things that fell into his lap.

I dont claim to know what goes on in phone conversations between Holland and other GM's, but what I do is his track record which are facts. Fact of the matter is he has never given up much in trades....yet he's set the ultimate fate of this team hindering on the deadline. Does that make sense to you? Spare me with the whole 3rd best team in the league argument, everyone knows the playoffs are a different entity as the last few seasons have shown. My problem with Holland is that he doesnt seem to learn from his mistakes. He talks the talk, but doesnt walk the walk. I will be the first to admit i go overboard on the value of toughness and grit, but i know you do need it and this team doesnt have it. He had all offseason and up to this point to address it, and hasnt...so lets see what happens.

[Guest Crymson]

You know, Illitch also stuck it out for quite a long time with another GM in his other sport. Does the name Randy Smith ring a bell? So dont give me that crap about how just because Illitch still employs him means he's the almighty and hes great. The whole what has Holland REALLY done here argument has been done time and time again, and i dont feel like getting into it. Bottomline though, he's credited for alot of things that fell into his lap.

I dont claim to know what goes on in phone conversations between Holland and other GM's, but what I do is his track record which are facts. Fact of the matter is he has never given up much in trades....yet he's set the ultimate fate of this team hindering on the deadline. Does that make sense to you? Spare me with the whole 3rd best team in the league argument, everyone knows the playoffs are a different entity as the last few seasons have shown. My problem with Holland is that he doesnt seem to learn from his mistakes. He talks the talk, but doesnt walk the walk. I will be the first to admit i go overboard on the value of toughness and grit, but i know you do need it and this team doesnt have it. He had all offseason and up to this point to address it, and hasnt...so lets see what happens.

Holland has never given up much in trades? The PERFECT reason why we don't have much to trade now is that he HAS given away prospects and picks by the scores in the past. That's WHY we've had successful teams, and it's WHY he can't make the trades everyone wants now... he already did the "let's go for it this season!" thing.

Year after year--same old entitled bulls***, different day.

Crymson, you and some sunny California days need to hook up. The weather on the west coast can be idyllic.

#13's loyal friend, read this for further understanding into "flying into passionate messageboard frenzies" ::

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/

I really do like California.

[Mighty Wings 0]

Fact of the matter is he has never given up much in trades....yet he's set the ultimate fate of this team hindering on the deadline.

I agree with a lot of things you've said today, except that one.

Chelios: Ericsson and 2 1st rounders

Schneider: Avery, Kuznetsov, 1st and a 2nd.

Lang: Fleischmann, 1st and a 4th.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

What, do you ask, do I classify as drivel in this particular case? Easy: people who come onto the boards to merely ***** and moan

you mean like you?

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Holland has never given up much in trades? The PERFECT reason why we don't have much to trade now is that he HAS given away prospects and picks by the scores in the past. That's WHY we've had successful teams, and it's WHY he can't make the trades everyone wants now... he already did the "let's go for it this season!" thing.

Year after year--same old entitled bulls***, different day.

And who were these great prospects we traded? That kid we traded for Lang who's name i cant even remember? Anders Eriksson, Max Kuznetsov? Slava Kozlov was the only player of significance i can recall, and that was a no-brainer trade. Also remember, those picks were all on the low ends of the rounds. Holland has always looked for trades where he clearly gets the upperhand, and when you're on the hunt for whatever everyone else is looking for (a top 6 gritty forward), thats not gonna happen.

I agree with a lot of things you've said today, except that one.

Chelios: Ericsson and 2 1st rounders

Schneider: Avery, Kuznetsov, 1st and a 2nd.

Lang: Fleischmann, 1st and a 4th.

I think the picks are overvalued to be honest, especially where Detroit's picks were every year. The hockey draft isnt like the NFL, its much more of a crapshoot. I can understand why you may disagree though. Jury's still out on Fleischmann at the NHL level, i looked him up and didnt realize hes doing good in the AHL, but the other guys arent much.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Lou_Siffer

[Heaton 1]

Before they weren't as valuable, in the capped NHL, picks value will increase a great deal.

[Mighty Wings 0]

I think the picks are overvalued to be honest, especially where Detroit's picks were every year. The hockey draft isnt like the NFL, its much more of a crapshoot. I can understand why you may disagree though.

Its a crapshoot, but you can still gauge how deep a draft is (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have traded because the draft class is strong). The years they traded picks were the years where the draft was deep. So holland had a "win now" mentality and teams who wanted to rebuild, and get draft picks in a good year was an added bonus for those teams. For Example, buffalo in 2003 (i think) gets derek roy and jason pominville in the 2nd round.

From what I've been hearing, this year's draft class isn't very good, possibly even the worst in this decade so far. Therefore, 1st round pick last year does not = 1st round pick this year.

Last but not least, in the salary cap, you gotta concentrate more on building through the draft.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Mighty Wings

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Its a crapshoot, but you can still gauge how deep a draft is (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have traded because the draft class is strong). The years they traded picks were the years where the draft was deep. So holland had a "win now" mentality and teams who wanted to rebuild, and get draft picks in a good year was an added bonus for those teams. For Example, buffalo in 2003 (i think) gets derek roy and jason pominville in the 2nd round.

From what I've been hearing, this year's draft class isn't very good, possibly even the worst in this decade so far. Therefore, 1st round pick last year does not = 1st round pick this year.

Last but not least, in the salary cap, you gotta concentrate more on building through the draft.

Prior to the cap there wasnt much incentive to hold on to picks since the Wings could just reload every year through free agency. Thats a reason why im saying the Wings have never really given much up in trades...im looking at it from THEIR perspective. Holland has always had the clear upperhand in every trade at the time it was made (well maybe not Cross for the 4th rounder lol), which i will credit him for, but it leads me to believe he's unwilling to make any deals unless thats the case. That goes to my point about waiting to the deadline to fill a major need which many other teams will be bidding on.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Prior to the cap there wasnt much incentive to hold on to picks since the Wings could just reload every year through free agency. Thats a reason why im saying the Wings have never really given much up in trades...im looking at it from THEIR perspective. Holland has always had the clear upperhand in every trade at the time it was made (well maybe not Cross for the 4th rounder lol), which i will credit him for, but it leads me to believe he's unwilling to make any deals unless thats the case. That goes to my point about waiting to the deadline to fill a major need which many other teams will be bidding on.

well, technically speaking, nobody is going to make a deal unless they believe they have gotten the better end of the deal.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

well, technically speaking, nobody is going to make a deal unless they believe they have gotten the better end of the deal.

Not necessarily, sometimes guys just have to be moved and teams take what they can get. Thats how i view most of Holland's trades. Cash constricted teams just couldnt afford their guys anymore...and Holland pounced on it. But thats not gonna happen this year....a gritty top 6 forward wont fall into your lap, in most cases you'll have to overpay to outdo the competion. Is Holland willing to do that is all im saying...history has yet to show he will. And when reading the comments about him saying prices are too high, it has to make you worry that it wont happen.

[regwinguofmfan 0]

For the few that dont get it.

Holland can not make this team into a "Calgary" (who in the F would want that anyway) in one year, but making one tiny step in that direction was promised and then not executed.

This guy has made no attempt to add toughness to this team.

He did what myself and others said after our exit last year: he promised something to ride out the storm, then put his own plan into action.

I want to see my wings win just as bad as everyone.

I dont think holland has any idea how important toughness is in the playoffs. If he does, than you tell me what he is thinking this year.

Oh and how is the team softer than last year. The loss of Shanny and Stevie makes us alot softer. We have nobody that can fight at all. And the guy with the biggest balls on the team is Zetts.

Hardly Stevie.

[epps 0]

Oh, ok.. and you are basing this "always" on what? Do you forget that, three season ago, Scotty Bowman was coach? Do you call him a s***ty coach for his first-round exits? Ooook.

Bottom line: you have no right to feel entitled. The vast majority of you do nothing more than watch the games on TV. You get the game channels as part of the cable package you'd have anyway. Even if you do go to games, etc.--the NHL and the Red Wings are a business. If you don't like their product, stop buying it. End of story.

I do have a serious problem with bulls***. I suppose you could say that my tolerance is rather low. What, do you ask, do I classify as drivel in this particular case? Easy: people who come onto the boards to merely ***** and moan, act entitled, and do whatever they can to make the situation seem hopeless.

Funny that you bemoan people who come on here and state their opinion when you are the biggest blowhard on this forum. Remember, if people didn't come on here and ***** you wouldn't be able pound your chest and lord over the complainers.

Edited February 18, 2007 by epps

[Barnes52 0]

Since Detroit is a one line team and winning because of the hot hand of Zetterberg, they need to make trades badly. They need to build up a second line, because if it wasn't for Zetterberg this team would have 3 or 4 more losses since the All Star break, Zetterberg is on a roll, it won't last, then what?

[NAVYWING 2]

Holland is not a good GM with a cap.

If you have all the money in the world and can spend it he is good, hell most of us could be a good GM if we had cash to spend.

Nothing of note will happen and we will get knocked out in round 1 or 2.

Holland will promise to revamp the team for a more "playoff style" "tougher" team.

We start 07-08 season in same boat.

Sound familiar?

What in the hell do you want? Seriously.. what can Holland do? Offer to sell half the team in order to get another winger? Holland needs to work with what he has.

In any event, I don't know how in the f*** you can judge Holland after TWO SEASONS with a cap. Last year, all we got was Cory Cross. Big whoop. We went 17-1-3 after the trade deadline, and that one loss was the last game of the season--Babcock scratched half the team. So, I guess we didn't need anyone, eh?

f***, people like this.. man, I just don't get them. They'll spend all sorts of time attempting to contort the facts such that they can conclude everything is hopeless. ******* ridiculous.

:violin:

Hum ho, well, let's look at the changes. A completely different style of play, a better starting 6 on D, a better starting goalie, and pretty much everyone good besides Shanahan re-signed. The result? Hum ho, a mere 3rd in the league. Quit your bitching.

Holland is not a dolt. Stop pretending that you know s*** about what goes on in trades and such. If Holland were doing a crappy job, he'd be fired.

:caution:

You don't know crap

[Heaton 1]

Wow, you managed to quote 4 people and still add nothing to the discussion, awesome!

[NAVYWING 2]

Wow, you managed to quote 4 people and still add nothing to the discussion, awesome!

No, it was all the same person. And I said that he doesn't know crap.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

I don't know much about him other than he is younger, but I remember Ales Kotalik being available from Buffalo as they were wanting to move him. He is of good size and seems to be developing that scoring touch - he's also a winger too. I wonder if this would be a viable option. Anyone have any comments?

[ShanahanMan 473]

"Keith Tkachuk is also a scorer with toughness from the Blues, but the Wings should pass on him. He is not the best guy in the clutch because of the silly penalties he takes." -Terry Foster

Edited February 19, 2007 by shanahanman

[bellarina 1]

This is just my own idea but the way the wings have been playing Holland may start thinking twice about breaking the chemistry. No one thought that the wings were going to be such a force this season. Holland is no fool, he will only trade if he gets a bargain and the way things are going is that there will be no bargains just highway robery.

[bringback91 2]