Why no Enforcer in Motown?

[GMRwings1983 8,799]

i think i disagree with this post. didn't homer get another assist after coming back that very game? yes, our powerplay was weak last season. but if that's better this season, i think the way to get back at cheap shots is by scoring on the team. i, for one, really respect that the wings are a classy organization. someone takes a cheap shot at homer, they don't respond by stooping to the same level.

now, i can see the value of someone wanting to take on pronger in a fair fight after his hit on homer. but what if they lose? how does that get the team pumped up any more? i think if you get angry at a cheap shot, take it out by digging deep and playing hockey with heart, anger and determination. i don't think that having a fight is necessary to get players going.

i'll agree that the wings maybe showed a lack of resolve after the hit on homer. i'm not sure if that's something that can be addressed or not. i guess the bottom line for me is that if having an enforcer helps you win games, then do it. i guess i'm not convinced that having someone who throws punches would have made pronger not hit homer like that. i could be wrong, but i'm not convinced.

and i agree with the posters who have asked who are we going to sit if we add someone who gets eight points a season and two hundred penalty minutes? maybe one of the new kids. but i woudn't want to give up kopecky's roster spot so that some guy can be a -10 and occasionally fight someone. it doesn't seem to make sense.

Kopecky better accomplish something first, before we can talk about how his roster spot shouldn't be given up for an enforcer. He had one point last year in 26 games.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Because it's not the 1990 Red Wings, it's not how they play hockey and not how babcock wants them to. They will bank on their powerplays from idiots giving cheapshots, thats how and why they're such a great disciplined hockey team, thats all there is to it. Though I love hockey fights and physical play, there is no reason to set yourself up for disappointment when Detroit "will not" sign an enforcer, it's not necessary, they sit talented players as it is. Why add a BENDER to the mix to fill cap space and more importantly bench space?

Several players on the 1997, 98 and probably even the 2002 Red Wings would've gone after Drake or Torres after their cheapshots.

I won't get into it all again, you can check the signature. I'm not looking for a fight every game. I just want guys that will stick up for their teammates.

[Booster313 138]

The problem is not if we want a enforcer or not, it seems to me Holland and company would be perfectly happy to have one on the team, their just not willing to sacrafice goals to do it. The Red Wings haven't had an enforcer that couldn't contribute since I've been watching Hockey, D-Mac could score, scrap, and he wasn't a defensive liability. That's what it takes to be an enforcer on the Wings and unfortunately their aren't many of those players available.

[LeftWinger 5,061]

...the year when Kenny says we need to get smaller and softer is when we'll sign a huge gritty enforcer. For now we'll have to cope with getting bigger and grittier and signing small, grossly underweight (for their height) Europeans or old, past their prime players...

...although, I am very interested in seeing Grigs, he sounds like he is built like a bull, hopefully he isn't afraid to finnish a czech (LOL) sorry had to spell them that way!!!

Edited July 18, 2007 by LeftWinger

[Turretin 0]

The problem is not if we want a enforcer or not, it seems to me Holland and company would be perfectly happy to have one on the team, their just not willing to sacrafice goals to do it. The Red Wings haven't had an enforcer that couldn't contribute since I've been watching Hockey, D-Mac could score, scrap, and he wasn't a defensive liability. That's what it takes to be an enforcer on the Wings and unfortunately their aren't many of those players available.

And they're are definitely overpriced right now...

[GMRwings1983 8,799]

The problem is not if we want a enforcer or not, it seems to me Holland and company would be perfectly happy to have one on the team, their just not willing to sacrafice goals to do it. The Red Wings haven't had an enforcer that couldn't contribute since I've been watching Hockey, D-Mac could score, scrap, and he wasn't a defensive liability. That's what it takes to be an enforcer on the Wings and unfortunately their aren't many of those players available.

You are right, and the problem is that Holland seems to be ignoring the fact that as I stated earlier, our fourth liners didn't exactly light the lamp last year, so what do we have to lose? We wouldn't be sacrificing any goals by carrying an enforcer.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Do we need one? No.

Would I like to see one? Yes.

I think everyone feels the same way. We love seeing fights. But to say that no one stands up for anyone is ignorant. If there is a cheap shot and it is not dealt with by the refs, the players handle it. The Wings don't take the laws into their own hands, they win by playing the game as pure as it can be played, not by gooning it up as much as the other team does.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Do we need one? No.

Would I like to see one? Yes.

I think everyone feels the same way. We love seeing fights. But to say that no one stands up for anyone is ignorant. If there is a cheap shot and it is not dealt with by the refs, the players handle it. The Wings don't take the laws into their own hands, they win by playing the game as pure as it can be played, not by gooning it up as much as the other team does.

How is it ignorant? Because I disagree with you?

Who has stood up for someone?

When Drake charged Lebda, how exactly was that dealt with? or Pronger putting his elbows through the back of Homer's head? There was no penalty on those plays, and if memory serves, no one on the Wings did anything. Pronger actually getting a suspension a couple days later is small consolation when Holomstrom is bleeding out of his head.

If we had this lineup when Lemieux cheapshotted Draper, we'd probably be hearing crap about how he got a suspension, so justice was served.

I'm tired of this "classy" "Wings play by the rules" nonsense. If someone takes a run at one of our guys, you beat the hell out of him. In the late 80s if someone took liberties with Stevie, you can bet sometime that game (if not immediately) they'd be having a conversation with Mr. Probert about the matter. Hell, a lot of times Yzerman wouldn't hesitate to lay the lumber on someone himself.

I'm tired of watching our guys get hacked, whacked, charged and cheapshotted, with almost no one sticking up for themselves or their teammate.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

How is it ignorant? Because I disagree with you?

Who has stood up for someone?

When Drake charged Lebda, how exactly was that dealt with? or Pronger putting his elbows through the back of Homer's head? There was no penalty on those plays, and if memory serves, no one on the Wings did anything. Pronger actually getting a suspension a couple days later is small consolation when Holomstrom is bleeding out of his head.

If we had this lineup when Lemieux cheapshotted Draper, we'd probably be hearing crap about how he got a suspension, so justice was served.

I'm tired of this "classy" "Wings play by the rules" nonsense. If someone takes a run at one of our guys, you beat the hell out of him. In the late 80s if someone took liberties with Stevie, you can bet sometime that game (if not immediately) they'd be having a conversation with Mr. Probert about the matter. Hell, a lot of times Yzerman wouldn't hesitate to lay the lumber on someone himself.

I'm tired of watching our guys get hacked, whacked, charged and cheapshotted, with almost no one sticking up for themselves or their teammate.

I agree Harold. Unfortunately it seems the general anti -fighting sentiment of most notably Holland has just brainwashed alot of people around here. Because if we had some fighters, you had better believe almost everyone here would love them...and the posts about having guys who fight not being necessary would be few and far between.

[Guest DetroitIan]

How is it ignorant? Because I disagree with you?

Who has stood up for someone?

When Drake charged Lebda, how exactly was that dealt with? or Pronger putting his elbows through the back of Homer's head? There was no penalty on those plays, and if memory serves, no one on the Wings did anything. Pronger actually getting a suspension a couple days later is small consolation when Holomstrom is bleeding out of his head.

If we had this lineup when Lemieux cheapshotted Draper, we'd probably be hearing crap about how he got a suspension, so justice was served.

I'm tired of this "classy" "Wings play by the rules" nonsense. If someone takes a run at one of our guys, you beat the hell out of him. In the late 80s if someone took liberties with Stevie, you can bet sometime that game (if not immediately) they'd be having a conversation with Mr. Probert about the matter. Hell, a lot of times Yzerman wouldn't hesitate to lay the lumber on someone himself.

I'm tired of watching our guys get hacked, whacked, charged and cheapshotted, with almost no one sticking up for themselves or their teammate.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Every word is the complete truth. And no offense to anyone, but if you think he's wrong you've got to be delusional or something.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I agree Harold. Unfortunately it seems the general anti -fighting sentiment of most notably Holland has just brainwashed alot of people around here. Because if we had some fighters, you had better believe almost everyone here would love them...and the posts about having guys who fight not being necessary would be few and far between.

I think a lot of people would change their tune the first time they saw an opponent try and take Datysuk's head off, then a Wings player went and beat the hell out of the guy.

[N4C3R 0]

But to say that no one stands up for anyone is ignorant. If there is a cheap shot and it is not dealt with by the refs, the players handle it. The Wings don't take the laws into their own hands, they win by playing the game as pure as it can be played, not by gooning it up as much as the other team does.

You call people ignorant immediately before you contradict yourself. Brilliant.

Could you please remind me how the Wings handled the cheap shots put on Lebda by Drake and on Williams by Torres? Didn't have to because the referees called a penalty right? Could you please remind me how the Wings handled the cheap shot put on Holmstrom by Pronger? You know, the one Pronger didn't take a penalty for? We didn't win that series did we?

You can call people ignorant all you want, all I see you put up is excuses for not standing up for your teammates.

[skacore 2]

it wouldn't hurt the ticket sales either... a ton of old school hockey fans may come out to a few games knowing they won't be watching team sweden

[Heaton 1]

I think a lot of people would change their tune the first time they saw an opponent try and take Datysuk's head off, then a Wings player went and beat the hell out of the guy.

I don't have a problem with people who want fighters on the team, I'm of the mindset that our team is tough enough to win the cup, it was demonstrated last year and the loss of Bertuzzi and potentially Markov isn't going to take us from 1 game and 30 seconds from going to the finals to not getting back there.

The problem I have is when people are of the belief that having fighters on the team will prevent anything. Players got cheapshotted during all 3 of our cup runs, I don't have any proof, I don't have any videos, I just know it happened. This day and age it's totally different from back then and it's just not the instigator rule.

If someone game and took Datsyuk's head off which resulted in a concussion for Datsyuk and he's gone for the year, I wouldn't get very much satisfaction if X player beat up the player who did it, at that point it's moot. 1 beating, 5 beatings, 20 beatings doesn't bring back Datsyuk into the lineup.

Fighting has it's place, but the Red Wings have the players to win the cup, at least this year. Our team is battle tested, they know what it takes to win, the Vets already knew, but now the young guys do too. This year wasn't a fluke, Bertuzzi probably helped the team play a bit tougher, but he wasn't the straw that stirred the drink, Dan Cleary was. Johan Franzen was. Hell, even Lilja was.

We're not the softest team in the league (I realize you didn't say that Harold), we're not the toughest in the league, we don't have to fight to be tough. Yzerman was tough, he didn't have to fight. I'm not against fighting, I love a good fight, but only when it means something. Geroge Parros squaring off against George Laraque just so they have something to do with their 3 minutes doesn't do it for me, sorry, I just don't get all excited for the WWE style bouts.

Like Holland said, whether you mock him or make sarcastic comments out of it, toughness is just like everything else, you can't have enough. Just like you can't have enough good forwards, good defensemen, good goaltending. You can't have enough speed, you can't have enough goalscoring, you can't have enough heart.

I understand where people are coming from, for the most part. For instance, when I read what Lou has to say, it has less to do with whether or not his moves really help the team and more to do with putting out a product that he will enjoy more. I bet that if we lost in the first round, but had a tough, gritty, 75 fight team, he'd enjoy it more than if we won the cup with what we have now. I could be wrong, but that's the vibe that I get from him.

I'm just sort've amazed that these threads are still popping up, we got to the WCF, we beat 2 tough teams and were basically 30 seconds from winning the cup. I'll go out on that limb, we win game 5, we win the cup. Period. That would've been beating the Calgary Flames, who we had no shot against, the San Jose Sharks, who we had no shot against and the Anaheim Ducks, who we had no shot against.

This team can use more of everything, but if we lose in the first round next year, it won't be because we got "pushed around", it won't be because we didn't fight anyone, it'll be because we got outplayed by a team who wanted it more than us or we just rolled over and died.

This team showed a lot to me this post season, Dan Cleary is a warrior, he DESTROYED Phanuef worse than I've ever seen Phaneuf clocked before in his 2 years of playing in this league. Fraznen is a playoff performer, plain and simple. Andreas Lilja CAN PLAY HOCKEY, he can use his body, he's not worthless. Quincey, Chelios, Draper, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, who backed down? Who got manhandled? Who was knocked off their game so they weren't able to produce? I would've liked to see Datsyuk and Z play better on the road, but other than that, who made space for them? Holmstrom? Sure, a bit, but they did it, battling through the beat tough meanies.

We could get tougher, but we're tough enough now to win a cup, there's always tinkering you can do, but this team, right now, is either the best team in the NHL or at worst the second best, and that's a good place to be.

[WingNut199 0]

Maybe I'm getting too old for this new NHL. What I want is a team where guys will stand up for each other no matter what. I didn't see that when Williams and Lebda got demolished, so apparently what we need is an enforcer to do this for the team. Until I see our team react properly to a run being taken at one of our guys I'm going to continue to lobby for an enforcer. Neither Dallas Drake nor Raffi Torres are especially big guys, why didn't anyone from our team stand up for Williams and Lebda?

Drake would have dropped the gloves in both case and he will drop the gloves this year too...He might not be the biggest guy but again he has always dropped them gloves

I agree wholeheartedly with the original post, but I've given up on the Wings management to ever address this issue. You know when we lost the Anaheim series? When Pronger took his shot on Holmstrom and nobody did a single thing about it or even looked like they wanted to.

Holmstrom was practically useless for the rest of the series (I wonder how much was mental), and the Ducks clearly understood that they had broken us. We played better, but they had confidence on their side and their heads were clear.

What???

He was just as good if not better after the hit IMO

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

You call people ignorant immediately before you contradict yourself. Brilliant.

Could you please remind me how the Wings handled the cheap shots put on Lebda by Drake and on Williams by Torres? Didn't have to because the referees called a penalty right? Could you please remind me how the Wings handled the cheap shot put on Holmstrom by Pronger? You know, the one Pronger didn't take a penalty for? We didn't win that series did we?

You can call people ignorant all you want, all I see you put up is excuses for not standing up for your teammates.

Drake left the game and was suspended. Williams was borderline legal seeing as he was the player in control of the puck. It was only a questionable hit because it was shoulder to head. WHICH IS STILL LEAGAL IN THE NHL. A better example to bring up would have been the Franzen hit where he didn't have the puck.

Homer came back and we still lost. What would fighting Pronger have done? He might have even NOT been suspended if the Wings had retaliated. They may have even lost a player for instigating. So, still think having a fighter would have won the series?

And for the record, I would like a Bob Probert on the team, but not at the cost of just having a guy to send out there for fights. Probert could play if any of you remember. He even made the all-star team once. The ability to play well and fight seems to be a rare gift, or the Wings would have an enforcer.

I don't have a problem with people who want fighters on the team, I'm of the mindset that our team is tough enough to win the cup, it was demonstrated last year and the loss of Bertuzzi and potentially Markov isn't going to take us from 1 game and 30 seconds from going to the finals to not getting back there.

The problem I have is when people are of the belief that having fighters on the team will prevent anything. Players got cheapshotted during all 3 of our cup runs, I don't have any proof, I don't have any videos, I just know it happened. This day and age it's totally different from back then and it's just not the instigator rule.

If someone game and took Datsyuk's head off which resulted in a concussion for Datsyuk and he's gone for the year, I wouldn't get very much satisfaction if X player beat up the player who did it, at that point it's moot. 1 beating, 5 beatings, 20 beatings doesn't bring back Datsyuk into the lineup.

Fighting has it's place, but the Red Wings have the players to win the cup, at least this year. Our team is battle tested, they know what it takes to win, the Vets already knew, but now the young guys do too. This year wasn't a fluke, Bertuzzi probably helped the team play a bit tougher, but he wasn't the straw that stirred the drink, Dan Cleary was. Johan Franzen was. Hell, even Lilja was.

We're not the softest team in the league (I realize you didn't say that Harold), we're not the toughest in the league, we don't have to fight to be tough. Yzerman was tough, he didn't have to fight. I'm not against fighting, I love a good fight, but only when it means something. Geroge Parros squaring off against George Laraque just so they have something to do with their 3 minutes doesn't do it for me, sorry, I just don't get all excited for the WWE style bouts.

Like Holland said, whether you mock him or make sarcastic comments out of it, toughness is just like everything else, you can't have enough. Just like you can't have enough good forwards, good defensemen, good goaltending. You can't have enough speed, you can't have enough goalscoring, you can't have enough heart.

I understand where people are coming from, for the most part. For instance, when I read what Lou has to say, it has less to do with whether or not his moves really help the team and more to do with putting out a product that he will enjoy more. I bet that if we lost in the first round, but had a tough, gritty, 75 fight team, he'd enjoy it more than if we won the cup with what we have now. I could be wrong, but that's the vibe that I get from him.

I'm just sort've amazed that these threads are still popping up, we got to the WCF, we beat 2 tough teams and were basically 30 seconds from winning the cup. I'll go out on that limb, we win game 5, we win the cup. Period. That would've been beating the Calgary Flames, who we had no shot against, the San Jose Sharks, who we had no shot against and the Anaheim Ducks, who we had no shot against.

This team can use more of everything, but if we lose in the first round next year, it won't be because we got "pushed around", it won't be because we didn't fight anyone, it'll be because we got outplayed by a team who wanted it more than us or we just rolled over and died.

This team showed a lot to me this post season, Dan Cleary is a warrior, he DESTROYED Phanuef worse than I've ever seen Phaneuf clocked before in his 2 years of playing in this league. Fraznen is a playoff performer, plain and simple. Andreas Lilja CAN PLAY HOCKEY, he can use his body, he's not worthless. Quincey, Chelios, Draper, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, who backed down? Who got manhandled? Who was knocked off their game so they weren't able to produce? I would've liked to see Datsyuk and Z play better on the road, but other than that, who made space for them? Holmstrom? Sure, a bit, but they did it, battling through the beat tough meanies.

We could get tougher, but we're tough enough now to win a cup, there's always tinkering you can do, but this team, right now, is either the best team in the NHL or at worst the second best, and that's a good place to be.

I agree.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Maybe I'm getting too old for this new NHL. What I want is a team where guys will stand up for each other no matter what. I didn't see that when Williams and Lebda got demolished, so apparently what we need is an enforcer to do this for the team. Until I see our team react properly to a run being taken at one of our guys I'm going to continue to lobby for an enforcer. Neither Dallas Drake nor Raffi Torres are especially big guys, why didn't anyone from our team stand up for Williams and Lebda?

I remember watching the game on TSN when Torres leveled Williams, and they had some nice commentary on it. They applauded the Wings for not going after Torres after the hit, because to many of the Wings, and the refs knew it was a clean hit. (the topic of headshots should obviously be debated in another thread - I'm by no means arguing to keep headshots in the game - just saying that according to the NHL rules, it was legal) In many cases throughout the season, retaliation was not necessary. I really think people put too much value on retaliation. Look at the trouble it gets players in...Bertuzzi and Simon for example. The Wings did GREAT without enforcers to go around and 'getting even'. Hollands approach is appropriate, the Wings don't need one big fighter on there team. There are a number of Wings who won't take s*** from other guys - Maltby, Cleary, Chelios, Lijia, Franzen, now Drake, and even Zetterberg mixes it up nicely from time to time. I really don't think the Wings are ever playing scared, and the product they put on the ice proves it. Its important to have guys like Cleary who are hard nosed hockey players, but having a guy who goes out to get even for supposed cheap shots was not, and is not necessary.

With all of the cheapshots that this team was on the receiving end of last year, you'd think Holland would have learned his lesson by now. This year we need an enforcer more than anybody, especially since our roster isn't as deep as it's been in past years, thus we can't afford more injuries. As for those of you who are concerned with enforcers taking up roster spots, don't forget that we had a lot of fourth liners last year that couldn't produce any numbers either, such as Langeld, Hussey, Kopecky, Ellis, etc.

I really don't think the Wings received more cheapshots then any other team in the league last year. And if they did, they responded the right way - by beating the other team on the scoreboard- which is way more productive then bashing a guys face in. Teams fear and respect the Wings for their talent and skill. A guy like Laraque, Parros, or Bogaard only take up time on the ice which could be better spent giving experience to younger prospects who actually have the ability to score. Unless Holland could find an enforcer who could also score goals, I don't think he would waste roster/cap space on the guy.

I think my main point is that the Wings won the conference last year without a tough guy - what makes you think a Parros type player would make the Wings any better then they already are? The Ducks were great last year because they had 3 lines that could score - not because of Parros.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Yzerfan1999

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I don't have a problem with people who want fighters on the team, I'm of the mindset that our team is tough enough to win the cup, it was demonstrated last year and the loss of Bertuzzi and potentially Markov isn't going to take us from 1 game and 30 seconds from going to the finals to not getting back there.

The problem I have is when people are of the belief that having fighters on the team will prevent anything. Players got cheapshotted during all 3 of our cup runs, I don't have any proof, I don't have any videos, I just know it happened. This day and age it's totally different from back then and it's just not the instigator rule.

If someone game and took Datsyuk's head off which resulted in a concussion for Datsyuk and he's gone for the year, I wouldn't get very much satisfaction if X player beat up the player who did it, at that point it's moot. 1 beating, 5 beatings, 20 beatings doesn't bring back Datsyuk into the lineup.

Fighting has it's place, but the Red Wings have the players to win the cup, at least this year. Our team is battle tested, they know what it takes to win, the Vets already knew, but now the young guys do too. This year wasn't a fluke, Bertuzzi probably helped the team play a bit tougher, but he wasn't the straw that stirred the drink, Dan Cleary was. Johan Franzen was. Hell, even Lilja was.

<snip>

I'm just sort've amazed that these threads are still popping up, we got to the WCF, we beat 2 tough teams and were basically 30 seconds from winning the cup. I'll go out on that limb, we win game 5, we win the cup. Period. That would've been beating the Calgary Flames, who we had no shot against, the San Jose Sharks, who we had no shot against and the Anaheim Ducks, who we had no shot against.

This team can use more of everything, but if we lose in the first round next year, it won't be because we got "pushed around", it won't be because we didn't fight anyone, it'll be because we got outplayed by a team who wanted it more than us or we just rolled over and died.

This team showed a lot to me this post season, Dan Cleary is a warrior, he DESTROYED Phanuef worse than I've ever seen Phaneuf clocked before in his 2 years of playing in this league. Fraznen is a playoff performer, plain and simple. Andreas Lilja CAN PLAY HOCKEY, he can use his body, he's not worthless. Quincey, Chelios, Draper, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, who backed down? Who got manhandled? Who was knocked off their game so they weren't able to produce? I would've liked to see Datsyuk and Z play better on the road, but other than that, who made space for them? Holmstrom? Sure, a bit, but they did it, battling through the beat tough meanies.

We could get tougher, but we're tough enough now to win a cup, there's always tinkering you can do, but this team, right now, is either the best team in the NHL or at worst the second best, and that's a good place to be.

I disagree that this team was as close to the Cup as you make it sound. They remind me of the Wings before they got past Colorado and before they got their ass handed to them by New Jersey in the finals. More often than not, a Cup winning team has to go through wars like that and gel as a team to make it to the Cup.

This was a great playoffs and I was so happy with how far these guys went, especially because they are undersized and play a generally non-grinding game in the regular season, but I feel like that next step is still a big one. And honestly I don't think they have the lineup at this moment to win the Cup (but I'd love to be wrong).

And for the record, we were expected to beat Calgary. And most people called San Jose a 7 gamer, with the Sharks on top. That's not "no chance."

In your example, you're correct. No amount of beatings would bring Datsyuk back into the lineup, but I think it helps team morale and chemistry. That they've got each other's back. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Wings won the Cup after they beat the hell out of Colorado that game in March of '97. Those guys went to war together.

I don't think fighters prevent anything at all. I just like a team that if someone is going to run one of our guys, even a clean hard hit, that player is aware he is going to have to answer for it.

Drake left the game and was suspended. Williams was borderline legal seeing as he was the player in control of the puck. It was only a questionable hit because it was shoulder to head. WHICH IS STILL LEAGAL IN THE NHL. A better example to bring up would have been the Franzen hit where he didn't have the puck.

Homer came back and we still lost. What would fighting Pronger have done? He might have even NOT been suspended if the Wings had retaliated. They may have even lost a player for instigating. So, still think having a fighter would have won the series?

And for the record, I would like a Bob Probert on the team, but not at the cost of just having a guy to send out there for fights. Probert could play if any of you remember. He even made the all-star team once. The ability to play well and fight seems to be a rare gift, or the Wings would have an enforcer.

Drake left the game? when? when it was over? he scored later on that same game.

And the Williams hit could've easily been ruled a charge. Torres looked like Fred Flinstone trying to start his car he took so many damn strides to hit Williams.

If you don't see what fighting Pronger would've done or meant, I guess there's really no use trying to explain it.

I miss the days when the Wings weren't so classy.

Maybe the new slogan for this season should be "Detroit Red Wings: turning the other cheek."

[Heaton 1]

This was a great playoffs and I was so happy with how far these guys went, especially because they are undersized and play a generally non-grinding game in the regular season, but I feel like that next step is still a big one. And honestly I don't think they have the lineup at this moment to win the Cup (but I'd love to be wrong).

That depends really, was Ottawa a better team than we were? The Wings were the only team who gave the Ducks a run and we had them on the ropes, I don't see that as us being *far* away from winning the cup. We were injured in a lot of important positions, I'm not using that as an excuse, but I don't think we're worrying about this as much if the injury bug wasn't so nasty.

I guess I don't understand why we don't have the lineup to win the cup. Who is better in the Western Conference? The Eastern Conference? Did we get that much worse? Did other teams get that much better? Explain to me what I'm not seeing. Our team didn't overachieve, we didn't play above our heads, we played right about to our potential.

And for the record, we were expected to beat Calgary. And most people called San Jose a 7 gamer, with the Sharks on top. That's not "no chance."

After the previous post season failures and the general tone around Wings fan nation, I disagree.

but I think it helps team morale and chemistry. That they've got each other's back. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Wings won the Cup after they beat the hell out of Colorado that game in March of '97. Those guys went to war together.

I don't disagree and to steal a quote from Aaron Ward, it was a coming together of a team of sorts, but this team is different, Anaheim didn't need a brawl to get their team over the hump, they just had the least injuries, the most bounces and played the best out of all the teams in the playoffs.

The players do have each others backs, I'm not sure if you're implying that there's a chemistry problem or a morale problem on the team, you don't get as far as the Wings did without being a team with a capital T.

I don't think fighters prevent anything at all. I just like a team that if someone is going to run one of our guys, even a clean hard hit, that player is aware he is going to have to answer for it.

And that is a major problem I have with the NHL today, every hit, every semi-hard hit has to be "answered" it has to be looked at as if a grave injustice was done. A few years ago that wasn't the case, a hard check to one of your stars didn't always turn into a need for revenge or retaliation. Now a days since there's not as much fighting, players look for ANYTHING to give them a reason to go after someone and I think that's wrong, I think that actually removes some passion instead of instilling it.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Heaton

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

That depends really, was Ottawa a better team than we were? The Wings were the only team who gave the Ducks a run and we had them on the ropes, I don't see that as us being *far* away from winning the cup. We were injured in a lot of important positions, I'm not using that as an excuse, but I don't think we're worrying about this as much if the injury bug wasn't so nasty.

The Wings were definitely the only team who gave the Ducks a run for their money. But I think part of that injury was lack of size.

I guess I don't understand why we don't have the lineup to win the cup. Who is better in the Western Conference? The Eastern Conference? Did we get that much worse? Did other teams get that much better? Explain to me what I'm not seeing. Our team didn't overachieve, we didn't play above our heads, we played right about to our potential.

After the previous post season failures and the general tone around Wings fan nation, I disagree.

I was referring mainly to the hockey media like TSN, ESPN, etc. most hockey analysts thought the Wings would beat Calgary. Us Wings fans were a little shellshocked from the last few years to predict anything.

I don't disagree and to steal a quote from Aaron Ward, it was a coming together of a team of sorts, but this team is different, Anaheim didn't need a brawl to get their team over the hump, they just had the least injuries, the most bounces and played the best out of all the teams in the playoffs.

The players do have each others backs, I'm not sure if you're implying that there's a chemistry problem or a morale problem on the team, you don't get as far as the Wings did without being a team with a capital T.

Not a chemistry problem necessarily. But when someone gets run at, all the Wings on the ice just stand around. that's very different from virtually every Wings team when Stevie was here.

And that is a major problem I have with the NHL today, every hit, every semi-hard hit has to be "answered" it has to be looked at as if a grave injustice was done. A few years ago that wasn't the case, a hard check to one of your stars didn't always turn into a need for revenge or retaliation. Now a days since there's not as much fighting, players look for ANYTHING to give them a reason to go after someone and I think that's wrong, I think that actually removes some passion instead of instilling it.

Maybe I should clarify. If a guy gets a clean hard hit, I don't mean there should be retribution Bertuzzi style. I mean guys should try to hit him back. He should have a bullseye on his chest the rest of the game.

Though honestly if someone hit Z or Dats with a hit that wasn't penalized yet injured them in some obvious way, I would want a Wings player to go after them.

[Heaton 1]

The Wings were definitely the only team who gave the Ducks a run for their money. But I think part of that injury was lack of size.

This is where I take the biggest issue, size had nothing to do with why the Wings lost the series. Selanne and McDonald certainty didn't muscle Lilja off the puck in OT. Niedermayer certaintly didn't check Cleary when he fell down giving Niedermayer an open shot to beat Hasek in game 2. Size didn't have anything to do with the fluke goal off of Nick's stick at the end of game 5.

I know what you're getting at and I emphasize, but you're talking in a general sense, nothing that happened to the Wings this post season that resulted in losing the series to the Ducks was a direct correlation to size and toughness being at the TOP of the list of reasons as to why we lost. It just didn't happen.

I'm not saying it isn't a problem, I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat, and our forumla, with Babcock's coaching is a forumla built to win with the team we have right now. No other team in the Western Conference got that much more significantly better from last season that it will dethrone us. Anaheim? got worse if Selanne and Niedermayer retire. San Jose? Debateable, but even at best. Nashville? Worse. LA? Better, but who cares? Same goes with St. Louis, Chicago, Edmonton, Minnesota, Calgary, Vancouver and whoever else. Colorado? Suspect goaltending with suspect defense.

I just don't see it. The Wings are practically even from last year with most of the fat cut off.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Heaton

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Sigh..........the great enforcer debate in here again.

First off, let me say I like physical play like anybody else. I like your run-of-the mill hockey fight between two skaters every now and then. I don't like games just falling out of control physically though.

There has often been complaints about players not sticking up for one another on the Wings. I remember attending a game live against St. Louis in December in Detroit, and I forgot the exact incident, but I think Lebda got injured or run at and nobody did anything about it after the scrum. I also want players sticking up for each other as well, but that doesn't have to be done by an enforcer type, and it doesn't have to be a big fight. Just throw checks at the guy continuously and play aggressive towards him giving the message that you aren't getting away clean with what you did.

Again, I want players to stick up for each other, but it doesn't need to be done by an enforcer, and an enforcer cannot prevent the goalie from being run at or hard hits from happening. And I don't want an enforcer on the Wings that just plays a garbage 2 - 4 minutes a game, lays one body check, and does absolutely nothing else to contribute physically or do nothing to generate scoring chances (see Brad Norton).

They have proven this playoff run against San Jose and Calgary they can match "physical" teams with good checks and tenacious play. They won't quit, they won't get bullied or pushed around. All the Wings need to do is stick up for each other.

...the year when Kenny says we need to get smaller and softer is when we'll sign a huge gritty enforcer. For now we'll have to cope with getting bigger and grittier and signing small, grossly underweight (for their height) Europeans or old, past their prime players...

...although, I am very interested in seeing Grigs, he sounds like he is built like a bull, hopefully he isn't afraid to finnish a czech (LOL) sorry had to spell them that way!!!

Why do you alway insist on stereotyping and generalizing all European-born hockey players as either being small or soft or being wusses?

Edited July 19, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[sticknmove 0]

Wow I am so sick of the anti-policeman sentiment around here I will just have to shut the naysayers down. I mean you can hear the posters here getting off when Hudler or Flip is mentioned but they scoff in almost a condesending "we are above that" sense when the topic of bringing in a tough guy is brough up. Enforcement for your finesse guys is as important as almost any part of the game, "blah blah blah parros didnt play blah blah" ya I understand this, however he did play night in and night out getting them there, he was a role player who did his job and helped his team. Hockey is more then the playoffs, it is a grind of a season and having a tough guy (no Franzen facewashing someone with the linesmen in between them does not constitut toughness) helps preserve your skill guys. Case in point Drury got run at in the Ottawa game, Peters didnt have it, and we all know what went down. And ya know what after that night Drury, nor Briere, etc were run at in such a blatent fashion the rest of the season, coincidence? Maybe, but doubtful. Williams, Lebda, Franzen, Homer, Hasek countles times had liberties taken on them with no recourse, and if we are going to continue to do nothing someone will get seriously hurt, mark my words. Below illustrates my argument, you see they are numbers, cold hard statistics, FACT. And the first person who can tell me the diff b/t the Wings (last 2 years and by the looks of it this ear as well) and the teams listed gets a dolla HOLLA!

**Totals are Regular season and Playoffs ONLY**

07-Ducks (75 FM's) v. Senators (28 FM's)

06-Carolina (19 FM's) v. Edmonton (31 FM's)

04-Tampa Bay (51 FM's) v. Calgary (85 FM's)

03-New Jersey (44 FM's) v. Ducks (33 FM's)

*02-Red Wings (21 FM's) v. Carolina (33 FM's)

01-Colorado (50 FM's) v. New Jersey (56 FM's)

00-New Jersey (47 FM's) v. Dallas (37 FM's)

99-Dallas (35 FM) v. Buffalo (52 FM's)

*98-Red Wings (33 FM's) v. Washington (32 FM's)

*97-Red Wings (62 FM's) v. Philly (82 FM's)

*****Above are the regular season and playoff fighting majors for the teams in stanley cup finals. The total Detroit Red Wing FM count FOR 2005-2006 (6 FM) AND 2006-2007 (12 FM) IS 18 TOTAL FIGHTING MAJORS. that is less then the smallest number above (06 Carolia).****

In closing I am not saying we need to have 75 FM a year, or anyhting close to that but clearly fighting is a big component of winning teams, that is unarguable. Its more then the actual fight, its what the fight does for the players on the team and their confidence, chemistry, and eventual team unity. Now for all you euro-style fanatics have at it, blah blah blah, we dont need enforcers, etc etc. The truth is in the numbers though, and the numbers greatly support the notion that willing tough guys are a big part of championship winning teams.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Shut the naysayers down with "Dolla Holla"?

You just posted like you are a 17-year old gangster wannabee!

[Izzy24 44]

Last season SJ carried Scott Parker and Nashville carried Darcy Hordichuk. Neither guy, like most enforcers, were factors in the playoffs. My contention is that their value to the team comes during the regular season, when the chemistry for the team is formed going into the playoffs.

-P

Scott Parker doesn't intimidate anyone or anything.