man do i miss stuff like this,....

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Thank you. Finally someone who get's it.

I can't believe the amount of fans who don't even care about the issue at all. You know, it's not too much to ask that we have at least one fighter that could the the #13 forward, that would be in the lineup for games that it will get very rough, like against Anaheim. A fighter for the #13 spot is better utuilized then some scrub who does nothing at all (hint: Kopecky).

The Wings don't need to be cavement on skates, but at least one guy who will fight would be nice. It would be better using a roster spot or extra space then for someone who doesn't do anything (hint again: Kopecky).

What does this tell you then? Maybe even players don't put as big an emphasis on "fighting" as some fans might want. Maybe fighting isn't as big a deal to some/a fair amount of professional players either, who know more about the game than fans. There's nothing wrong with that.

Edited August 21, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

The Wings had the fewest fighting majors and PIM in general last year in the entire league. Softserve hockey indeed, which is one of the many reasons why the Wings don't get much respect (other than of course playing in a weak division).

But, things will never change anytime soon. Ken Holland firmly believes that toughness is no longer needed on this team, which is proof in the signings he makes.

Ok first of all you complain that we didnt have enough pim? haha Thanks but I'd rather win. Fewer men in the box means less penalty killing, more goals and less goals against. No you're right we should try and aim for having more penalty minutes next season

Second of all sortserve hockey? No its called smart hockey. Their style is puck possession, not crash and bang, not dump and chase. An enforcer would be a liability and waste of a roster spot.

The Wings dont get much respect? They are a Stanley cup favorite every year. Who is it that is not respecting them?

Cleary, Zetterberg, Franzen, Homer, Drake, Maltby, Kronwall and Chelios is the kinda toughness this team thrives off of. Players who are not liabilities, solid in both ends, play with an edge and protect their teammates. Did you watch the playoffs?

[Kp-Wings 3]

Second of all sortserve hockey? No its called smart hockey. Their style is puck possession, not crash and bang, not dump and chase. An enforcer would be a liability and waste of a roster spot.

Yes, and that style of hockey doesn't work in the playoffs. If you actually watched, you would see that this year they did play dump and chase, not puck possession.

The Wings dont get much respect? They are a Stanley cup favorite every year. Who is it that is not respecting them?

Pretty much everybody. Look at how many people said Calgary would beat us. I can remember people even saying if Calgary did beat us, it wouldn't be an upset. That's unprecidented to say that, because whenever a #8 seed beats a #1 seed, it is an upset.

Cleary, Zetterberg, Franzen, Homer, Drake, Maltby, Kronwall and Chelios is the kinda toughness this team thrives off of. Players who are not liabilities, solid in both ends, play with an edge and protect their teammates. Did you watch the playoffs?

I'd like you find me one example of these guys "protecting" their teammates.

And yeah, I did watch the playoffs. I had no idea that one playoff series automatically equals toughness though. We'll see how that effect carries into next season, if at all.

What does this tell you then? Maybe even players don't put as big an emphasis on "fighting" as some fans might want. Maybe fighting isn't as big a deal to some/a fair amount of professional players either, who know more about the game than fans. There's nothing wrong with that.

I don't get this statement at all. Just because players on the Wings don't fight means that everybody thinks it isn't important? I doubt that.

Pretty much every team, except the Wings, have a guy that is at least willing to fight. The Wings don't have anybody. Don't say Lilja either, because I'd be surprised to ever see him do that again.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

If anyone wants to argue that the Wings are tough enough, go ahead, i think you're wrong but its your opinion. But to go and say they protect their teammates is flat out bull, that is directly linked to fighting. Protecting your teammates does not include face washes, sorry.

In a nutshell, if you're saying the Wings are tough enough and dont need any fighters, you're saying protection of teammates is not a necessary part of the game.

You cant have it both ways...

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

And yeah, I did watch the playoffs. I had no idea that one playoff series automatically equals toughness though. We'll see how that effect carries into next season, if at all.

How many playoff series does it take for a team to be tough then?

Two?

Four?

Nine?

Sixteen?

What's the standard?

[Kp-Wings 3]

If anyone wants to argue that the Wings are tough enough, go ahead, i think you're wrong but its your opinion. But to go and say they protect their teammates is flat out bull, that is directly linked to fighting. Protecting your teammates does not include face washes, sorry.

In a nutshell, if you're saying the Wings are tough enough and dont need any fighters, you're saying protection of teammates is not a necessary part of the game.

You cant have it both ways...

QFT

I can't imagine any other way the current players on the Wings protect their teammates. They don't fight, so what else are they doing? A Maltby style-push or a face wash (like you mentioned) does not count at protecting your teammates. What it does count as is being a wuss though.

I still don't see the issue of having a fighter as the #13 forward, and just put him in for games against teams like Anaheim. Kopecky is our current #13 forward, and he does nothing. A fighter will have just as cheap a contract, and be able to at least bring something to the table that other players on the current team don't already do.

In my opinion, Kopecky and Franzen are very similar players, only Franzen is much better. There is no honest need for Kopecky at all, so why not have a fighter for that extra spot instead?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I don't get this statement at all. Just because players on the Wings don't fight means that everybody thinks it isn't important? I doubt that.

Did I say everybody?

Edited August 21, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[Kp-Wings 3]

How many playoff series does it take for a team to be tough then?

Two?

Four?

Nine?

Sixteen?

What's the standard?

I just don't get how people can take one playoff series and automatically it means the Wings are tough. It's like people saying if the Islanders only won 1 Stanley Cup in the 80's, they would still be a dynasty.

In my opinion, if they prove it over at least a full season, then it'll count. That's a full season, not just a few playoff series.

...and I'm sorry if it bothers you so much that I don't consider the Wings tough, but you already stated the importance of other peoples opinions, so I think you honor those words.

Did I say everybody?

Then please explain what you meant by that.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I just don't get how people can take one playoff series and automatically it means the Wings are tough. It's like people saying if the Islanders only won 1 Stanley Cup in the 80's, they would still be a dynasty.

In my opinion, if they prove it over at least a full season, then it'll count. That's a full season, not just a few playoff series.

...and I'm sorry if it bothers you so much that I don't consider the Wings tough, but you already stated the importance of other peoples opinions, so I think you honor those words.

"Toughness" over a full season is nice and dandy, but you and I know very clearly that most of the regular season is an audition for the playoffs. Unless the Wings snooze through their alarms every game, they are making the playoffs. Yeah yeah, weak division most years, but what can ya do, the Wings cannot control that. They are still in the playoffs then. If they turn up the "toughness" for the games that matter most, what's the problem then?

Doesn't really bother me all that much actually that you and others don't think they are "tough", it's more humoring to me actually.

Then please explain what you meant by that.

It's pretty self-explanatory, some people and probably some players, who are professionals, know more about the game than we do, don't put as much of an emphasis on fighting. If that's the case, I'd take the word of a professional over the word of any beer-bellied fan any day of the week.

Edited August 21, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[Lou_Siffer 1]

QFT

I can't imagine any other way the current players on the Wings protect their teammates. They don't fight, so what else are they doing? A Maltby style-push or a face wash (like you mentioned) does not count at protecting your teammates. What it does count as is being a wuss though.

I still don't see the issue of having a fighter as the #13 forward, and just put him in for games against teams like Anaheim. Kopecky is our current #13 forward, and he does nothing. A fighter will have just as cheap a contract, and be able to at least bring something to the table that other players on the current team don't already do.

In my opinion, Kopecky and Franzen are very similar players, only Franzen is much better. There is no honest need for Kopecky at all, so why not have a fighter for that extra spot instead?

Its stuff like that that tends to irritate me more than anything. All i can ask for is consistency from the ones saying we dont need any fighters. If that person is willing to say sticking up for teammates (definition: FIGHTING in defense of them) isnt necessary, more power to him. Obviously you and I dont agree with that thinking, but whatever, at least theyre consistent. But to say the Wings dont need any fighters and also say they protect each other is a direct contradiction.

It's pretty self-explanatory, some people and probably some players, who are professionals, know more about the game than we do, don't put as much of an emphasis on fighting. If that's the case, I'd take the word of a professional over the word of any beer-bellied fan any day of the week.

SWF- I'd be willing to bet anything you'll find more players who think fighting is important to the game than ones who dont think it is.

[Kp-Wings 3]

"Toughness" over a full season is nice and dandy, but you and I know very clearly that most of the regular season is an audition for the playoffs. Unless the Wings snooze through their alarms every game, they are making the playoffs. Yeah yeah, weak division most years, but what can ya do, the Wings cannot control that. They are still in the playoffs then. If they turn up the "toughness" for the games that matter most, what's the problem then?

Yeah, that's fine if they do it in important games, but when do they do that? I mean, the lack of toughness throughout various stretches of the season last season was frustrating, and that doesn't include fighting either.

Take the Philadelphia game for example. Yeah yeah, meaningless regular season game it was, but it was still embarrasing to see the Wings totally dominated by the worst team in the league on National TV (that game was on Versus and the only game going that particular night) because they were more physical. That's pretty pathetic in my opinion.

Other examples: the many games against St. Louis were liberties were taken, yet nothing was done. Quincidentally, St. Louis also took the series from us this year (4-3-1). Toughness does play a part.

Yes, it is good if they turn up the toughness for the playoffs, but I don't want to see them play like a bunch of pansies otherwise. They don't have to go all-out, but they don't have to roll over and die either (which was the case in the Philadelphia game).

It's pretty self-explanatory, some people and probably some players, who are professionals, know more about the game than we do, don't put as much of an emphasis on fighting. If that's the case, I'd take the word of a professional over the word of any beer-bellied fan any day of the week.

I highly doubt that's the case with the majority of NHL players. In the Wings case, it's because their not willing to fight, not because "their too smart to do that".

Its stuff like that that tends to irritate me more than anything. All i can ask for is consistency from the ones saying we dont need any fighters. If that person is willing to say sticking up for teammates (definition: FIGHTING in defense of them) isnt necessary, more power to him. Obviously you and I dont agree with that thinking, but whatever, at least theyre consistent. But to say the Wings dont need any fighters and also say they protect each other is a direct contradiction.

Yeah, that is true.

I can (sorta) understand why people wouldn't want a fighter, because that said fighter might not be a very good hockey player. Plus, many don't like fighting like or care about fighting like you and I do.

But, if we're going to do without that fighter, it makes sense to stay the course and say we don't need fighting. Not say "we don't need a fighter" and "the Wings all stick up for one another". It's like a night and day difference when you say that.

Edited August 21, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

In a nutshell, if you're saying the Wings are tough enough and dont need any fighters, you're saying protection of teammates is not a necessary part of the game.

You cant have it both ways...

If I think they are tough enough, wouldn't that imply I think they can stand up for one another? This team is not all prima donnas. People on our current roster have dropped the gloves before and if the need arises they will again. They are not heavy weights but they can also skate and play. and log over 5 min a game. We do not need a player who is out on the ice looking for a fight.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Its stuff like that that tends to irritate me more than anything. All i can ask for is consistency from the ones saying we dont need any fighters. If that person is willing to say sticking up for teammates (definition: FIGHTING in defense of them) isnt necessary, more power to him. Obviously you and I dont agree with that thinking, but whatever, at least theyre consistent. But to say the Wings dont need any fighters and also say they protect each other is a direct contradiction.

SWF- I'd be willing to bet anything you'll find more players who think fighting is important to the game than ones who dont think it is.

Perhaps so. I could care less on survey all the NHLers who might think this and get an exact percentage as I got a day job and could find plenty other better things to do with my personal life, but I perfectly understand where you are coming from.

In terms of your main gist, no I don't think fighting is all that important. I don't know if you think this goes into the contradictory/grey area, yes I do like the normal fight every now and then. Do I drool and do jumping jacks when it happens though? Do I scream to the top of my lungs? No. Okay, two people fought, good for them, I got 2 minutes of "entertainment". Let's move on to the rest of the game then as there are plenty of other things that decide the match as well (i.e. good goaltending, reducing turnovers, passing, creating traffic etc. etc., things that have little/no emphasis on fights).

EDIT: On the contrary, do I throw a hissy fit if somebody doesn't "stick up for their teammate" in the form of a fight or whatever else? Not really either. Is it nice when it happens? Of course, but this isn't the pee-wee pre-puberty league where you are trying to learn to be a man and stick up for yourself. These are professionals, adults who probably have a good bit of sense/maturity since they are working, doing the thing they love best to make a living. It's nice when it happens, but I don't get angry if it doesn't b/c they are professional adults and know how to take care of thesmelves in the grand scheme of things within the overall game.

Edited August 21, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[gbdet 0]

So they shouldn't stick up for their teamates because they are grown men??? Let me guess... they will get them back on the scoreboard right? lol

That sure did a lot of good against pronger. They really showed him...

They shouldn't have went after Lemeuix either? Maybe Maltby should have gave him a good facewash to even things up...

Probbie, Dmac and Kocur all scored some huge goals for us in the playoffs.. why... because those are the type of guys that play with their heart on their sleeve. These are the type of guys that we need(will stick up for teamates NO MATTER WHAT, can skate decent, as well as score an occasional goal).

I'm all for signing a Boogard type as the 13th forward... Obviously I would rather have another Probert, Dmac or Kocur. But it seems these type are too hard to find nowadays or aren't a priority for us. But if I had to, I would definetly settle for a pylon with fists like bricks. It's not like an enforcer has to score anyway, they just need to be able to skate and not cause goals against, and Im sorry... but having Lilja as our protection just isn't gonna cut it.

I don't know who's played hockey and who hasn't but when an opposing player take's a run at your goalie or cross checks one of your star players... and your tough guy beats the crap out of him. It creates a huge adrenaline boost for the whole team as well as teaches the guy a lesson that he can't get away with that bulls***.

Maybe Im old fashioned a little, but who really doesn't enjoy watching a good hockey fight? seriously? Its a contact sport played with tons of emotion with players battling for every inch. When that happens there is going to be confrontations which leads to fighting every so often... which is why we need someone who can fight... so please kenny get er done

[eva unit zero 271]

If anyone wants to argue that the Wings are tough enough, go ahead, i think you're wrong but its your opinion. But to go and say they protect their teammates is flat out bull, that is directly linked to fighting. Protecting your teammates does not include face washes, sorry.

In a nutshell, if you're saying the Wings are tough enough and dont need any fighters, you're saying protection of teammates is not a necessary part of the game.

You cant have it both ways...

The Wings do not need an enforcer. The Wings do not need a goon. That is the opinion you are lumping in with 'the Wings do not need any tough players.'

That is a result of your error in implying fighting and toughness are synonymous.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

The Wings do not need an enforcer. The Wings do not need a goon. That is the opinion you are lumping in with 'the Wings do not need any tough players.'

That is a result of your error in implying fighting and toughness are synonymous.

BINGO

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

If this were an office building full of white collar professionals - then I'd say you're absolutely spot on, but this is the NHL where intimidation/physical hockey is the norm - even with the instigator rule.

People standing up for themselves, singing kumbayah together is good, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't really matter the profession you do as an adult whether you are a pre-k teacher, a florist, or a professional athlete, you should know by know how to take care of yourself in normal circumstances of your job. No, I'm not implying somebody is going to just come in the door and beat the crap out of a teacher or florist at random. That's not a normal part of their job.

If nobody stood up for me after I got hit hard in hockey or if I got beaned in baseball or something, I wouldn't complain at my teammates or call them out or whatever else. For good and for bad, those things are part of the game, I should/could be able to handle it if I was involved in the every day activities of those things. You're an adult, you should have learned to be responsible and take care of yourself a long time ago. Enforcement/physical hockey has it's place in the sport, just like good goaltending or scoring, leadership on and off the ice, coaching, off-season training, and a myriad of other things that make the game important, but it isn't significantly more important iversus other aspects of the game to significantly change my mind in how I feel about the game.

So they shouldn't stick up for their teamates because they are grown men??? Let me guess... they will get them back on the scoreboard right? lol

Did I actually say that?

Edited August 21, 2007 by SouthernWingsFan

[SweWings 45]

*Skips the pro/con fighting discussion*

Nice vid - much appreciated. I miss those times.

[eva unit zero 271]

Unfortunately in many cases the ability to fight/protect yourself, & a teammate goes hand-in-hand with toughness.

Toughness has nothing to do with fighting. A player can be very tough and not fight much, or a player can fight quite a bit and not be tough.

[eva unit zero 271]

I beg to differ, but I understand what you're saying. I honestly feel that we need more than just your definition of "toughness" ie a fighter, or someone who is capable of...Outta curiosity what player is capable of fighting - yet isn't tough?

Brad Norton is a good quick example of someone who fights yet isn't tough and doesn't stick up for teammates. He's a bad example of a fighter, but at the beginning of the year, many of the pro-fighting crowd people on here preferred the idea of Norton to the idea of Hudler or Kopecky.

[Opie 308]

I beg to differ, but I understand what you're saying. I honestly feel that we need more than just your definition of "toughness" ie a fighter, or someone who is capable of...Outta curiosity what player is capable of fighting - yet isn't tough?

Zdeno Chara

He is very soft, he always picks on the smallest guy and is not a force on the ice, he does fight very rarely, but he can do it.

[eva unit zero 271]

Zdeno Chara

He is very soft, he always picks on the smallest guy and is not a force on the ice, he does fight very rarely, but he can do it.

Andy Sutton.

[bringback91 2]

I woulnd't mind seeing a "fighter" on the team simply cause I like to see a fight every now and then. Don't think they are nessicary to win, nor do I think they'd do much at all to deter a potential cheap shot or anything like that. It'd be perfect if you could have one extra guy on the bench. That way you wouldn't have to sit a better hockey player just to get a fighter in the lineup.

[Opie 308]

Can you find a fight he was in last year?

The McCabe fight was not a fight he twirled him around the ice. And when he tried to do the same to Worrell what happened to him.

So you show me him spinning a guy around like a merry go round, and getting beat up by Worrell and all of the sudden he is a enforcer, or tough.

The wings already have some one who can fight like Chara, his name is Lilja.

Yeah Chara starts off every one of those fights in an ok position, but 3 out off the 5 he cross checks a guy in the chest and then starts the fight. If I hit you in the chest with a stick when you weren't looking, and then started spinning you around the ice, it would look like I was kicking your ass, however in reality seeing as I have never been in a fist fight and have a half destroyed knee, you would probably kick my ass in a straight up fight.

I watched 75% of B's games last year, Chara is not tough, if you think he is than Guys like Worrell and even Hartnell are indestructible.

PJ Stock could have kicked Chara's ass!!!

[Guest micah]

This is WAY tangent to the discussion that's going on here, but someone mentioned a white collar environment. I work in a rather prestigious engineering firm - you better believe that I would have the back of a coworker who was getting roughed up. I would have the back of my friends and family if they were getting roughed up, and I expect the same of them - that's what coworkers, friends family - and especially teamates - are supposed to do. If you allow a friend, family member or teamate to eat some unwarranted punches, you are a coward. A shove, crosscheck or facewash is not sticking up fpr someone, risking your own self to jump in and do what's right is. Even in profesional sports, doing the right thing is more important than winning. I will vote for the honest warrier with heart over the cowardly superstar every time.

And Opie - PJ stock ruled. Not much skill, but more heart than any wing I've seen - and that includes Steve Yzerman. Skating on a sore near takes heart - but continuously fighting people who outweight you by 40 pounds takes the heart of a giant.