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Son of a Wing

The Hockey News Top 50 current players

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Now don't get me wrong I love lidstrom but Crosby is arguably the Best player in the league. He is a one man army! LOL

So you're saying it can't be argued that Lidstrom is the best player in the league?

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And? I hope you aren't suggesting Heatley is anywhere near Z in terms of defensive play?

He may not be as good, but Heatley's no slouch and also alot better offensively. Comparing the differences in the two areas, Dany Heatley i think is clearly the better player right now. At the very least, you cant possibly agree that Zetterberg should be ranked 8 spots ahead of him, can you?

Edited by Lou_Siffer

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I think both lists have some pretty noticeable flaws, such as Cheechoo in the top 30 on THN, or Nash, Parise, Gonchar, or Sedin anywhere near the list.

My top twenty would probably be something like:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom, D, Detroit

2. Sidney Crosby, C, Pittsburgh

3. Martin Brodeur, G, New Jersey

4. Roberto Luongo, G, Vancouver

5. Henrik Zetterberg, C, Detroit

6. Alexander Ovechkin, LW, Washington

7. Joe Thornton, C, San Jose

8. Chris Pronger, D, Anaheim

9. Vincent Lecavalier, C, Tampa Bay

10. Marian Hossa, RW, Atlanta

11. Daniel Alfredsson, RW, Ottawa

12. Joe Sakic, C, Colorado

13. Dany Heatley, LW, Ottawa

14. Jaromir Jagr, RW, NY Rangers

15. Martin St. Louis, RW, Tampa Bay

16. Miikka Kiprusoff, G, Calgary

17. Ilya Kovalchuk, LW, Atlanta

18. Jarome Iginla, RW, Calgary

19. Sergei Zubov, D, Dallas

20. Marian Gaborik, LW, Minnesota

eeek. i agree with the rest of the pop. here. Crosby is number 1 over Lids. Lidstrom is great in so many ways, but if you dont think Crosby is the most dominant player in the league - your not watching close enough. And, if your argument is based on how each player makes the TEAM better, Ovechkin should NOT be higher than Joe Thornton or even Pronger. Ovechkin is explosive and entertaining, but didn't have seasons like Thornton or Pronger. Other then that, your list would be similar to mine the names are agreeable, just need a little shuffling IMO... oh and minus Zubov..

Edited by Yzerfan1999

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When people build teams it is usually wise to pick cornerstones that will be around a while longer. Nick probably has 5 great years left in him (if he should choose to stay). Sid probably has close to 15-20 great years left (barring career altering injury).

Would your choice change at all if Nick were ckoser to 20 than 40?

It would depend upon his impact as a 20 year old. At 20 Crosby is the league's leading scorer, Hart and Pearson winner and has already broken some NHL records, including some belonging to Gretzky.

Hypothetically, if Nick were 20 years old, to be even in the running he would have had to have won the Norris trophy at 20 and probably netted 20 goals and 70+ points at least to even be on par IMO.

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I've seen some of the biggest homerism by far in this thread alone.

/soapbox on

For one, Lidstrom should not be ranked ahead of Crosby at all. Crosby is single-handingly turning that team around. Oh sure, guys like Malkin, Staal, Recchi, and the like are helping but it's Crosby that is the true face of that franchise. He's without a doubt the single best player in the league, and there hasn't been a player as good or even as close as him since Gretzky. Lidstrom is a great player, but no way is he better then Crosby.

Same goes for the unbelievable pedastal people are putting Zetterberg on. Yes, Zetterberg is a good player, but he's not a top 5 in the league. And just look at some of the names some of you are putting him ahead of:

Thornton

Heatley

Ovechkin

Lecavalier

Kiprusoff

Pronger

These guys are all better players then Zetterberg, and they've all proven more then he has. Thornton has a Hart Trophy to his credit. Heatley is coming off of back-to-back 50 goal seasons. Ovechkin won the Calder Trophy his rookie year. Lecavalier scored 50 goals last year. Kiprusoff won a Vezina a few years back, and Pronger has won a Norris Trophy before also.

These guys I listed have all proven more then Zetterberg, and are better players. Yes, Zetterberg can have the injury argument made for him, but I really don't think he was even on pace for 50 goals last year, and he certainly wasn't going to win a Hart Trophy with Crosby around.

I'm not completely discrediting Zetterberg, as he is a great player, and is definitly a top 20 player in the NHL. But a top 5? Get real. Please, let's stop with the ridiculous homerism in here.

Before I finish, I should clarify that while Zetterberg is the best defensive forward amoung those I named better players, they've all still accomplished more during their respective careers, and are not exactly slouches in their own end either.

If this was a Mariusz Czerkawski vs. Zetterberg contest, then yes, it's obvious who'd be the decifered winner, because Zetterberg is miles away a better defensive player then Czerkawski. But these other names I mentioned, while still not as good defensivily as Zetterberg, are still decent defensivily. Their not all one-way offensive minded players like Czerkawski.

(I should clarify the Czerkawski comparison is coming from when he scored 35 goals in 1999-2000. Not his present day form of playing in Switzerland)

Since they aren't bad defensivily, and have accomplished much more offensivily then Zetterberg, that makes them better players in my opinions. If they were all bad defensivily, it'd be a different story. But their not, and some like Heatley and Thornton have an overall decent defensive game.

/soapbox off

Edited by Kp-Wings

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He may not be as good, but Heatley's no slouch and also alot better offensively. Comparing the differences in the two areas, Dany Heatley i think is clearly the better player right now. At the very least, you cant possibly agree that Zetterberg should be ranked 8 spots ahead of him, can you?

Zetterberg from December until his injury was the BEST player in the league. Heatley played all season with Alfredsson and Spezza, and Zetterberg was FAR better OFFENSIVELY when he had Dats and Homer. If Zetterberg had Alfredsson and Spezza all season, and stayed healthy, he'd have freaking won the Ross, Pearson, and Selke.

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Zetterberg from December until his injury was the BEST player in the league. Heatley played all season with Alfredsson and Spezza, and Zetterberg was FAR better OFFENSIVELY when he had Dats and Homer. If Zetterberg had Alfredsson and Spezza all season, and stayed healthy, he'd have freaking won the Ross, Pearson, and Selke.

Here we go again, Eva with all his what if scenarios. Yeah, and if Crosby played with Alfredsson and Heatley then Zetterberg wouldn't even be on the radar. Can we please stop ranking players on what they might do if they played with Gretzky and Lemieux and the opposition had an empty net.

Its great to love your own players but Lids at #1 and Z at #5. You're the only human being on the planet that thinks that's reasonable.

Just to humor you though, yeah, if Z played with them he'd probably have better numbers. Enough to win the Art Ross? That's a stretch seeing as how none of those guys came close to Crosby and Alfredsson, Heatly, Spezza is probably the most dominating offensive line in the game. So basically, you're saying Zetterberg in that mix is better than any of those 3 guys as a line. Unfortunately, you forget to account for the fact that playing with Heater and Alfie would mean Z would have to be the center and the most defensively responsible. Spezza is weak defensively in comparison. Z's numbers might not be as high as Spezza's if he had to cover for the other 2 constantly.

Still, this is ridiculous anyway. Z isn't a top 5 in the league. Everybody knows that but you. Putting him there is even more of a homer move than putting Lids in front of Crosby.

And they don't rank players based on what they might do if they played with other players. Like I said, you put Crosby with Heatley and Alfie or with Heatley and Lecavalier and they would destroy any numbers Z could ever put up. Its a pointless line of reasoning IMO because it applies to all players. you could hypothetically put any guys together to make your argument look valid. It's not valid. its homerism.

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Here we go again, Eva with all his what if scenarios. Yeah, and if Crosby played with Alfredsson and Heatley then Zetterberg wouldn't even be on the radar. Can we please stop ranking players on what they might do if they played with Gretzky and Lemieux and the opposition had an empty net.

Its great to love your own players but Lids at #1 and Z at #5. You're the only human being on the planet that thinks that's reasonable.

Just to humor you though, yeah, if Z played with them he'd probably have better numbers. Enough to win the Art Ross? That's a stretch seeing as how none of those guys came close to Crosby and Alfredsson, Heatly, Spezza is probably the most dominating offensive line in the game. So basically, you're saying Zetterberg in that mix is better than any of those 3 guys as a line. Unfortunately, you forget to account for the fact that playing with Heater and Alfie would mean Z would have to be the center and the most defensively responsible. Spezza is weak defensively in comparison. Z's numbers might not be as high as Spezza's if he had to cover for the other 2 constantly.

Still, this is ridiculous anyway. Z isn't a top 5 in the league. Everybody knows that but you. Putting him there is even more of a homer move than putting Lids in front of Crosby.

And they don't rank players based on what they might do if they played with other players. Like I said, you put Crosby with Heatley and Alfie or with Heatley and Lecavalier and they would destroy any numbers Z could ever put up. Its a pointless line of reasoning IMO because it applies to all players. you could hypothetically put any guys together to make your argument look valid. It's not valid. its homerism.

Zetterberg's remarkable streak from December on were the majority of the games this season he played at center, and most of the streak was at center. During that time, he was scoring more than anyone in the league. That sort of throws the 'his numbers would slip at center' argument out the window. Zetterberg scored 13 goals and 9 assists in 35 games playing on the wing. After that, he moved to center and scored 20 goals and 26 assists in 28 games before getting hurt. So projecting Z's stats at center over the 63 games he played, it works out to 45 goals, 59 assists, and 104 points in 63 games. Over 80 games, it would be 57-74-131, enough to win the Richard and the Art Ross by a healthy margin. How you can say Z WOULDN'T have had a damn good shot at the scoring title given time at center all season with guys like Alfredsson and Spezza is mind-boggling.

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Zetterberg's remarkable streak from December on were the majority of the games this season he played at center, and most of the streak was at center. During that time, he was scoring more than anyone in the league. That sort of throws the 'his numbers would slip at center' argument out the window. Zetterberg scored 13 goals and 9 assists in 35 games playing on the wing. After that, he moved to center and scored 20 goals and 26 assists in 28 games before getting hurt. So projecting Z's stats at center over the 63 games he played, it works out to 45 goals, 59 assists, and 104 points in 63 games. Over 80 games, it would be 57-74-131, enough to win the Richard and the Art Ross by a healthy margin. How you can say Z WOULDN'T have had a damn good shot at the scoring title given time at center all season with guys like Alfredsson and Spezza is mind-boggling.

It doesn't help when you're entire arguement is based on what ifs.

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It doesn't help when you're entire arguement is based on what ifs.

Besides the fact I think injury should play a part in ranking. Z's an awesome player no doubt, but this incredibly high pedastal he's put on by some is becoming comical.

Zetterberg's remarkable streak from December on were the majority of the games this season he played at center, and most of the streak was at center. During that time, he was scoring more than anyone in the league. That sort of throws the 'his numbers would slip at center' argument out the window. Zetterberg scored 13 goals and 9 assists in 35 games playing on the wing. After that, he moved to center and scored 20 goals and 26 assists in 28 games before getting hurt. So projecting Z's stats at center over the 63 games he played, it works out to 45 goals, 59 assists, and 104 points in 63 games. Over 80 games, it would be 57-74-131, enough to win the Richard and the Art Ross by a healthy margin. How you can say Z WOULDN'T have had a damn good shot at the scoring title given time at center all season with guys like Alfredsson and Spezza is mind-boggling.

Who was centering Z for those 35 games, cause from the start of the season, he and Datsyuk were on different lines. Then when reunited Z played on the wing for a while with Datsyuk centering til his wrist was injured, then Dats was moved to Wing for pretty much the rest of the season.

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What a great debate!

1. Crosby

2. Thornton

3. Lidstrom

4. Brodeur

5. Ovechkin

6. Luongo

7. Pronger

8. Sakic

9. Kiprusoff

10. Iginla

11. Lecavlier

12. Heatley

13. Hossa

14. Jagr

15. Zetterberg

16. Alfredsson

17. St. Louis

18. Datsyuk

19. Giguere

20. Havlat

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Besides the fact I think injury should play a part in ranking. Z's an awesome player no doubt, but this incredibly high pedastal he's put on by some is becoming comical.

Who was centering Z for those 35 games, cause from the start of the season, he and Datsyuk were on different lines. Then when reunited Z played on the wing for a while with Datsyuk centering til his wrist was injured, then Dats was moved to Wing for pretty much the rest of the season.

Z played many games on the wing with Lang at the beginning of the season. He also was playing on the Wing with Dats the first half of December. He moved to center at the end of the month.

It doesn't help when you're entire arguement is based on what ifs.

My ranking of Z is based on how well he played while at center. That's not a what if.

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Zetterberg's remarkable streak from December on were the majority of the games this season he played at center, and most of the streak was at center. During that time, he was scoring more than anyone in the league. That sort of throws the 'his numbers would slip at center' argument out the window. Zetterberg scored 13 goals and 9 assists in 35 games playing on the wing. After that, he moved to center and scored 20 goals and 26 assists in 28 games before getting hurt. So projecting Z's stats at center over the 63 games he played, it works out to 45 goals, 59 assists, and 104 points in 63 games. Over 80 games, it would be 57-74-131, enough to win the Richard and the Art Ross by a healthy margin. How you can say Z WOULDN'T have had a damn good shot at the scoring title given time at center all season with guys like Alfredsson and Spezza is mind-boggling.

Eva, my point about his scoring going down had more to do with him having to play stronger defense on a line with Alfie and Heater versus Datsyuk and Homer or whoever. I personally think his wingers in Detroit would've been better defensively than Heatley and Alfie thereby making Z have to focus a bit more on D at the expense of points.

Furthermore, you can throw out all the what ifs you want. Take the worst stretch of the season for Z and calculate his points over that period of time and you come up with nothing close to winning the Art Ross.

Look, we all love Z.

But c'mon Eva, you're basing a top 5 ranking on putting him with Alfie and Heatley. You're basing him winning the Art Ross and the Pearson on playing with Heatley. Whatever universe it is you want that to be it isn't our universe. Crosby is the Hart, Pearson and Ross winner. He's the best in the league. He's better than Lidstrom and Zetterberg as well.

You argument that he could be all of these things if he played with so and so is as absurd as it gets because you don't allow that argument for any other player. You can't say Z would win the Art Ross, Selke and Pearson, Hart or whatever if he played with Alfie and Heater unless you're willing to allow Lecavalier, Iginla, Sakic, etc... the same benefit.

And if you're going to allow those players to all have the same what if scenario, its hard to imagine that they wouldn't put up even better numbers playing alongside those 2 as individually, those guys all put up better numbers on their own teams, numbers that blew Z's numbers out of the water.

Obviously, I cannot seem to make a dent here with you as to the what if argument being the utmost shaky ground to compiling your list which has Lids at #1 and Z at #5. I mean, look at the responses here Eva, it should be obvious to you by now.

You're a great poster and very knowledgeable but the way you make your arguments based completely on what ifs only just drives me freaking nuts. You can't rank a guy based on what he'd do on another team with other linemates and then not give every other player in the league that same benefit. And if you were to give them all the same what if scenario it makes the entire point moot. So why do you insist on doing it?

Z played many games on the wing with Lang at the beginning of the season. He also was playing on the Wing with Dats the first half of December. He moved to center at the end of the month.

My ranking of Z is based on how well he played while at center. That's not a what if.

It is an absolute what if because you're extrapolating the data from the best part of his season to an 82 game schedule. It's ridiculous because it doesn't take into account any slumps. If Z scored a hat trick on opening night you'd have us all believing he could score 246 goals in a single season.

FACT: What you did last season, with your linemates, on your current team and not in some fantasy world is reflected in your statistics at the end of the year.

NON FACTS: Any point you try to make that puts Z on another team with other linemates or takes snapshots of portions of last season and extrapolates that into a hard number(s) for an 82 game schedule.

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My question would be why Schneids and not Rafalski?

I mean, in my mind we just upgraded our defense by replacing Schneids with Rafalski.

I think Ralf (my new nickname for him) has a better defensive game and his offense his not that far behind Scheids. And who knows leaving NJ may allow him to be an even better offensive defense man.

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Zetterberg from December until his injury was the BEST player in the league. Heatley played all season with Alfredsson and Spezza, and Zetterberg was FAR better OFFENSIVELY when he had Dats and Homer. If Zetterberg had Alfredsson and Spezza all season, and stayed healthy, he'd have freaking won the Ross, Pearson, and Selke.

Thats the problem with this idea of ranking players - the surroundings which they play in affect their game so much that the only thing you can really rank them on is their production at the end of the season. Sure, Zetterberg MAY have put up numbers like Crosby's - but he didn't, and it would have been one hell of a hot streak if he had ACTUALLY kept up with his pace. Saying he would actually score 131 points is banking on him staying just as hot for the rest of the season and playing the same position...which is no doubt unlikely. Crosby actually DID play close to 82 games...79 i think..and DID keep his pace - thus making him the best player in the league. SidGordie&Ted is right, your argument is based on what ifs.

Don't get me wrong, with the right circumstances, Zetterberg could probably be the best in the league, but that could be said for a number of guys in the NHL.

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That's part of the problem with ranking different postions together in one list. It's too hard to gauge where everone should fall, everything being equal. Because all things are not equal between positions. It's too hard to place defense, forwards and goalies in the same list, because eventually you have to come to a decision as to what skill is valued more than another. For instance, what is a more important skill than the other? Putting a puck in the net, or preventing one from going in? They say championships are won on defense, but can you win a championship without scoring a goal? Ultimately all these lists are subjective. What one person deems to be the most valuable skill in a player, is different from another. These lists are opinion only. Whomever's opinion that is, it is still ONLY opinion. Unless the list is based on hard fact, like, who has the most points, or who has the most take-aways, or who has the most shot blocks, it will always be opinion-based.

Edit: spelling

Edited by CdnWingsFanEh

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BUMP!

Oh...and something that was recently brought to my attention regarding this debate:

Everyone said Lidstrom is a lock i nthe top 5, but Zetterberg there is crazy. Yet Henrik Zetterberg, and not Nicklas Lidstrom, was the 2007 Viking Award winner as the best Swedish player in North America as voted on by the players.

Interesting.

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And Lidstrom received in 2005-2006. IDK ... Lidstrom is probably the best player in the League IMO. Seems to me forwards and goalies receive more press than defensemen. Anyway it's kinda hard comparing the three positions for best player in the whole League.

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And Lidstrom received in 2005-2006. IDK ... Lidstrom is probably the best player in the League IMO. Seems to me forwards and goalies receive more press than defensemen. Anyway it's kinda hard comparing the three positions for best player in the whole League.

My point was that the players as a whole felt Zetterberg was *gasp* better than Lidstrom. And Sundin, Forsberg, Lundqvist, and every other Swede. That means that based on the award voting, no defensemen and only two goaltenders were POSSIBLY better than Z...if we assume the top twelve breaks down evenly by position (6F, 4D, 2G) then the lowest spot Zetterberg could possibly have based on player opinions and award voting would be 8th, as he would be above the four defensemen. If 8th is the lowest spot he could hold..I fail to see how 5th is such a stretch,

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Mine is probably

1.Crosby

2.Lidstrom

3.Loungo

4.Brodeur

5.Thornton

6.Ovechkin

7.Heatley

8.Lecavlier

9.Pronger

10.Sakic

11.Jagr

12.Kipprusoff

13.Iginla

14.St Louis

15.Chara

16.Zetterberg

17.Sundin

18.Kovalchuk

19.Forsberg

20.Phaneuf

21.Hossa

22.Datsyuk

23.Lundqvist

24.Spezza

25.Hasek

26.Gaborik

27.Zubov

28.Elias

29.Alfredsson

30.Staal

Edited by Detroit # 1 Fan

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Mine is probably

22.Hossa

24.Modano

30.Hossa

These three get the the absolute WTF?

Marian Hossa is one of the elite players, and definitely Atlanta's best...Modano is not a top 30 player anymore...and either you ranked Marian too low TWICE in one list, or you ranked Marcel. Marcel Hossa has a LONG way to go before he can be even considered anywhere near this list.

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These three get the the absolute WTF?

Marian Hossa is one of the elite players, and definitely Atlanta's best...Modano is not a top 30 player anymore...and either you ranked Marian too low TWICE in one list, or you ranked Marcel. Marcel Hossa has a LONG way to go before he can be even considered anywhere near this list.

Yeah... it's not Marcel, I know he's terrible. I put Marian there twice by mistake.

Fixed.

Edited by Detroit # 1 Fan

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I just checked that Viking link and thought it was funny, ironic or whatever that the last two were from the Wings. Anyway I'm just saying it's hard to compare the three positions objectively and quantitatively. I certainly couldn't do it. Not taking anything away from Zetterburg.

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