University of Michigan - The upset - The future

[BlakChamber 8]

It's not a typical U-M answer. It's an opinion. I'm sure most MSU fans would choose to watch MSU hoops over football anyday. I like college football better then college basketball as well, and it has nothing to do with U-M being bad at it. If college football is on I will watch it no matter who is playing. If it's college hoops I will only watch the Big 10, a few big games here and there, and of course the tourny.

It's a typical UM answer. How is it possible to fill a stadium with 111,000 people, yet they can't sell out 13,000 in Crisler? Do that many Michigan fans just not care about basketball? Or is it more likely that all the diehard Wolverines won't come near the basketball arena because UM hasn't made the NCAA tournament since Ed Martin was paying the Fab 5? If UM had MSU's record and reputation in basketball, Crisler would be packed every night.

As much success as MSU has had in hoops, it's still a football school. Go to East Lansing on gameday, the place is almost always sold out and there's even more people out there. The fans are just waiting for the team to get good again.

Very clever move by the UM fans in the thread, avoid the discussion about the fact that your upset is going to be mentioned on TV for years by turning it into a UM/MSU debate.

Oh yeah, and the idea that App. State is so good and would walk all over a bunch of D1 teams, maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Last year they played one D1 team, NC State and lost 23-10. The year before that, they played Kansas and LSU, and got smoked by both teams. Most guys on App State wouldn't sniff Michigan's third string. Suck it up, stop trying to deflect this into what's happening with MSU, and accept that U of M, the winningest program in college football history just paid App State $400,000 to get mentioned on TV every time there's a big upset.

[PunkChildP 0]

In other news, consider this quotation from Tuesday Morning Quarterback: ''It's coming – I can feel it – the Revenge of the Cupcakes is in the air. College football's second echelon is tired of being hired to be clobbered. Sometime this season, a cupcake team is going to stage a major upset of a top 25 school. Thus sayeth the football gods." I wrote that last September, and needless to say I've been dancin' in the streets since Appalachian State, hired by megabucks Michigan to come to college football's largest stadium and play the roll of the pushover, hired by Michigan so that the Wolverines could win by 50 points and dance on the sidelines pointing at themselves, staged one of the best and most exciting wins in sports history. This game was so exciting it was thrilling just to listen to on the radio! Just the fourth-quarter play chart is thrilling to read!

Scoring to make it Appalachian State 31, Michigan 26 at the end of the third quarter, Wolverines coaches went for two – ignoring a TMQ immutable kicking law that has not been overturned by computer simulations, Take One Till the Fourth. Many's the team that goes for the deuce too early, then at the end really, really wishes it had taken one. Michigan missed the deuce and then, scoring to take a 32-31 lead late in the fourth quarter, went for two again and missed again. Had the Wolverines gone for the singleton in the third quarter, they would also have gone for the singleton at the end and then Appalachian's last-minute field goal would have tied the game, not won it. Like so many teams that have gone for two too early, at the end Michigan really, really wished it had gone for one.

Now the victors: At this point Appalachian State of beautifully rustic Boone, N.C., is not only good, it's the hottest team in college football at any level. Stretching back to last season, Appalachian State has won three consecutive do-or-die playoff games, then won a championship game, then defeated the nation's No. 5 team on its own turf. Short-term, no football factory school has done anything so impressive. BCS defending champion Florida beat Ohio State, but then wimped out by next scheduling Western Kentucky, a cupcake. Preseason No. 1 USC's short-term performance isn't even close to the Appalachian State run: in their three most recent outings the Trojans lost to UCLA, then won a bowl game, then faced a second-echelon team in Idaho. Appalachian State has won five consecutive max-pressure contests – the Mountaineers are the hottest team south of the NFL. And should New Orleans upset the Colts in the NFL opener, Appalachian State would become the hottest team in football, anywhere, period.

TMQ from espn. this guy knows what he talks about.

[Guest DetroitIan]

Typical Wolverine answer. I just don't care about college hoops. You know that if UM had success like MSU and the Spartans were still recovering from being one of the most corrupt programs in the country, you and every other UM fan like you would be just waiting for hoops season.

Ummmm....no, it's called, I actually love football WAY more than b-ball. It has absolutely nothing to do with any success or lack of success Michigan hoops have had. When we had the fab 5. I still loved football way more. When im bored I can watch vitually any college football game. The same cannot be said for college b-ball. Like I said before, I dont hate college hoops or anything. I just love football more than anything(tied with hockey).

And Ian, help me out with a theory of mine. What year did you graduate from UM?

Went there my freshman and half of my sophomore year. Then transfered to WSU soley because of their Physical Therapy program(that's my major). The only way to potentially work with the Tigers, is through DMC and WSU. Otherwise I would still be in Ann Arbor. But once you're a Wolverine, you're Maize and Blue for life.

Tom Izzo was quoted while talking about his team this year. He said something along the lines of, "this year will be my toughest challenge as a coach." Does that sound like a coach that is confident that his squad will do anything? Sure doesnt sound like that to me.

I would ask you what year you graduated from State, but Im sure you actually did. Only requirement is a heartbeat right? Did you get rejected from Michigan?

It's not a typical U-M answer. It's an opinion. I'm sure most MSU fans would choose to watch MSU hoops over football anyday. I like college football better then college basketball as well, and it has nothing to do with U-M being bad at it. If college football is on I will watch it no matter who is playing. If it's college hoops I will only watch the Big 10, a few big games here and there, and of course the tourny.

Amen brother!

Very clever move by the UM fans in the thread, avoid the discussion about the fact that your upset is going to be mentioned on TV for years by turning it into a UM/MSU debate.

WE never made it a UM/MSU debate. STATE fans started that. We were just making the point, that sure, we had a horriblly embarassing loss, to a 1-AA team. But we are still proud Maize and Blue fans. And we STILL have a hell of alot more to cheer about, than any State fan does. And just as someone already said, how is it gonna feel to get creamed by the team that lost to a 1-AA team??

Edited September 5, 2007 by DetroitIan

[Guest jaytan]

I'm not a fan of either MSU or U-M, so I'm coming into this neutral - Spartans, do you really think you'll beat Michigan this year? Are you just trying to get your shots in before it's too late?

[BlakChamber 8]

Went there my freshman and half of my sophomore year. Then transfered to WSU soley because of their Physical Therapy program(that's my major). The only way to potentially work with the Tigers, is through DMC and WSU. Otherwise I would still be in Ann Arbor. But once you're a Wolverine, you're Maze and Blue for life.

Interesting, you're disproving my theory. A Spartan's usual rule of thumb is, the more obnoxious the Wolverine fan, the less likely it is they went there.

WE never made it a UM/MSU debate. STATE fans started that. We were just making the point, that sure, we had a horriblly embarassing loss, to a 1-AA team. But we are still proud Maze and Blue fans. And we STILL have a hell of alot more to cheer about, than any State fan does. And just as someone already said, how is it gonna feel to get creamed by the team that lost to a 1-AA team??

The whole debate was started by a wolverine fan. And even if UM beats MSU this year, meh. I'll be disappointed to be sure, but my team still won't be in the record books as the first ranked D1 team to lose to a 1-AA team.

And, I may have a lowly Spartan education, but even I know it's Maize and Blue. I guess a UM education isn't all it's cracked up to be. Jim Harbaugh was right

I'm not a fan of either MSU or U-M, so I'm coming into this neutral - Spartans, do you really think you'll beat Michigan this year? Are you just trying to get your shots in before it's too late?

Its too early to tell what's going to happen. Michigan lost a game they should have won and from what I read, showed some good plays. MSU smoked a team they should have smoked. It could be a good game. The Spartans came close to beating UM in 04 and 05. It took Stanton going down in 04 and MSU's horrible kicking game in 05 for UM to win. If I were a betting man, I'd say UM wins in a close one.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I'm not a fan of either MSU or U-M, so I'm coming into this neutral - Spartans, do you really think you'll beat Michigan this year? Are you just trying to get your shots in before it's too late?

Of course they can. Michigan just lost to friken App State! But who knows how either team will look in 8 weeks, or whenever it is.....

[Guest DetroitIan]

And, I may have a lowly Spartan education, but even I know it's Maize and Blue. I guess a UM education isn't all it's cracked up to be. Jim Harbaugh was right

Easy there sport. It was just a typo. I fixed it. And I was just messing about you getting rejected by UofM. Just a little friendly smack talk.

[betterREDthandead 58]

A question I have tho is that enough for Michigan fans. If UM wins out, beats Ohio State and wins the Big Ten title...goes on to beat California in the Rose Bowl, is the season a success?

Yes.

Or....

A question I have tho is that enough for Michigan fans. If UM beats Ohio State is the season a success?

Yes.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

It's a typical UM answer. How is it possible to fill a stadium with 111,000 people, yet they can't sell out 13,000 in Crisler? Do that many Michigan fans just not care about basketball? Or is it more likely that all the diehard Wolverines won't come near the basketball arena because UM hasn't made the NCAA tournament since Ed Martin was paying the Fab 5? If UM had MSU's record and reputation in basketball, Crisler would be packed every night.

As much success as MSU has had in hoops, it's still a football school. Go to East Lansing on gameday, the place is almost always sold out and there's even more people out there. The fans are just waiting for the team to get good again.

One reason that Crisler is half empty is because many U-M alums/suporters are still pissed over the Fab 5. I think thats stupid because it was over 15 years ago, but I guess it's legit. Many people last year bailed out because they wanted Amaker gone. I'm sure there are a fair share of bandwagon fans too, but every school has those....

MSU is not a football school. Yeah they may have a great party atmosphere before the games, but you poll the nation and 90+ % will say it's a hoops school. MSU has not won a Big 10 title in football in ages, and has sucked since Sneaky Saban left. And if it is such a "football school" then why was it half empty twice last season? It doesn't sound like they are waiting for a good football team, it sounds like they are bandwagoners.

Edited September 5, 2007 by mannysBETTER3434

[Packer487 3]

It's a typical UM answer. How is it possible to fill a stadium with 111,000 people, yet they can't sell out 13,000 in Crisler? Do that many Michigan fans just not care about basketball? Or is it more likely that all the diehard Wolverines won't come near the basketball arena because UM hasn't made the NCAA tournament since Ed Martin was paying the Fab 5? If UM had MSU's record and reputation in basketball, Crisler would be packed every night.

As much success as MSU has had in hoops, it's still a football school. Go to East Lansing on gameday, the place is almost always sold out and there's even more people out there. The fans are just waiting for the team to get good again.

I love the "Well MSU sells out their stadium even when their team is awful" argument. Your stadium seats like 25,000 less people. It's like how Avs fans loved to thump their chest about the sell-out streak when half of those came at McNichols.

Absolutely Crisler would be packed every night if Michigan had MSU's record and reputation in basketball. But by the same token, I'm fairly confident that if MSU's basketball team embarassed their university to that extent, followed it up with the disaster that was Brian Ellerbe, and then got kicked in the throat every time something good happened (Jamal Crawford getting suspended, our entire team getting hurt which derailed a couple of good seasons, choking when it looked like we had the tournament made, etc.) the Breslin probably wouldn't be packed to the gills every night either.

When good things happen, the fans start coming out again. We saw it a few years ago when Michigan ran off 13 straight wins, and we saw it when they were in contention to win the Big Ten a few years ago. The place was packed. But it's hard to keep going out when every time they take one step forward, they take two steps back. I had season tickets for 3 years in school (didn't get them as a freshman because I swore I wouldn't support a Brian Ellerbe coached team). But the only time I can really get into college basketball is during the tournament. And it's hard to get that excited about the sport when your team is never there.

Every team has bandwagoners. Example: Your MSU hockey team has had a few down years in there, got shut out if they happened to make the tournament, and there were large parts of Munn that were empty. A national championship later, and I'm guessing it will be a fairly tough ticket next year.

It's not a "typical Wolverine" thing to say you like college football more than college basketball. Just the fact that your football team has struggled as much as it has, your basketball team has had as much success as it has, and MSU is still "a football school" should tell you something about how the general public feels about the respective sports. And it's not all that hard to figure out why. In college football, every game matters. Michigan's national title hopes are over because they lost the first game of the season. Moreso, a pretty fair percentage of games that don't even involve your opponent matter. I can sit down and watch pretty much any televised college football game and it will have some impact on Michigan, so I'll have some rooting interest in the game. It's not the case with college basketball. I have trouble watching a college basketball game that doesn't either a) involve Michigan or b) involve a pair of highly ranked teams. I'll sit down and watch Iowa play Northwestern in football. I'm not sitting down to watch that same pairing play basketball. And it's always been that way. Even when Michigan was good at the sport.

Football is more popular than basketball in this country. Football is king.

Oh yeah, and the idea that App. State is so good and would walk all over a bunch of D1 teams, maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Last year they played one D1 team, NC State and lost 23-10. The year before that, they played Kansas and LSU, and got smoked by both teams. Most guys on App State wouldn't sniff Michigan's third string. Suck it up, stop trying to deflect this into what's happening with MSU, and accept that U of M, the winningest program in college football history just paid App State $400,000 to get mentioned on TV every time there's a big upset.

Yup, and that game against NC State was 16-10 in the late third quarter and ASU wasn't playing Edwards, who was the guy who tore Michigan up and also led ASU to the championship last year. The other guy was 4-14 in that game.

I don't think that anyone is trying to deny that this is a colossal loss. But it wouldn't have been any better if we had lost to Central when they were down or EMU or something. It's a big deal because App State has the Division I-AA label, but they ARE better than quite a few teams in I-A. If we lost to EMU it'd be a big story, but not this big...but ASU is probably the better team.

Like I said, Michigan's been playing with fire for a long time and hopefully this is finally the thing that wakes them up when they play teams like this. They should be embarassed as hell. And I hope everyone involved in the program remembers this the next time they've got EMU before Ohio State or something.

Also, hopefully this loss kills any support for hiring within the program when Carr leaves. It probably has...

[OsGOD 3]

Ahh losing to a lower (much lower) ranked / experienced team. That seems similar to playing chess against an inexperienced player... they give you all sorts of trouble and sometimes beat you because their play is so unorthodoxed you can't battle it.

Actually I don't really follow college football anymore, not since my financial status made me go elseware than michigan. Its a shame they lost, too bad its football and you only get one shot against them.

Go Blue!

I love the "Well MSU sells out their stadium even when their team is awful" argument. Your stadium seats like 25,000 less people. It's like how Avs fans loved to thump their chest about the sell-out streak when half of those came at McNichols.

No, actually its like when the Mighty Foul were saying... "haha we can sell out the ponda center in the playoffs and you can't sell out the joe!" The ponda only holds 17,444 (which is a full bulding for them) and the joe was averaging 18,000 seats each game (which falls short of a sell out for us). Quite a funny arguement.

[Hockeytown Red Wings 245]

MSU = 1-0

UM = 0-1

Obviously the Spartans fans dont want to talk too much s***, because their team seems to fall apart after Week 3 or 4 every year, but the Wolverines fans shouldnt be talking too much themselves.

[Doctor G 0]

Say what? Michigan has contended every season after the Nat. Championship. Since then, they have won the Big Ten Title in '98, '00, '03, and '04. Yeah, Michigan has just sucked since '97. Sure, we have National Championship aspirations each year. But to say we havent been a top notch program since '97 is just plain ignorant. And just shows the complete lack of football knowledge you have. Especially you're whole, "hasnt been a top ten program" comment. Michigan has been ranked somewhere in the top 10 several times since '97. Im in favor of Carr leaving as well. But you need to do your homework before you spout out rediculous statements, that have no merritt whatsoever.

Spot on.

My friend please take off your maize and blue glasses for a minute. A Big 10 title isn't what it was; they all have had very poor bowl records the last few years. Every single year you pointed out UM were beaten pretty badly by one team or another and to be a consistent contender the Wolverines have not match up against the elite programs for a while now. Now if you are content just being a good team, winning 8 or so games a year and make it to a bowl then that is fine. But the majority of UM fans want to be an elite program and this team hasn't match up. So most realistic people understand this, but you have chosen to stay in your delusional world. I hope you like it, but most of your UM brethren will not be joining you.

[Guest DetroitIan]

My friend please take off your maize and blue glasses for a minute. A Big 10 title isn't what it was; they all have had very poor bowl records the last few years. Every single year you pointed out UM were beaten pretty badly by one team or another and to be a consistent contender the Wolverines have not match up against the elite programs for a while now. Now if you are content just being a good team, winning 8 or so games a year and make it to a bowl then that is fine. But the majority of UM fans want to be an elite program and this team hasn't match up. So most realistic people understand this, but you have chosen to stay in your delusional world. I hope you like it, but most of your UM brethren will not be joining you.

Please take off your "dont know jack" glasses first.

Since the National Championship in '97:

1998 - 10 wins - Beat a 9th ranked Penn State, Beat an 8th ranked Wisconsin, and an 11th ranked Arkansas - Big Ten Champs

1999 - 10 wins - Beat a 5th ranked Alabama, Beat a 6th ranked Penn State, Beat an 11th ranked Purdue

2000 - 9 wins - Beat a 12th ranked Ohio State - Big Ten Champs

2002 - 10 wins - Beat an 11th ranked Washington

2003 - 10 wins - Beat a 4th ranked Ohio State - Big Ten Champs

2004 - 9 wins - Big Ten Champs

2006 - 11 wins - Beat a 2nd ranked Notre Dame

Yeah we only win 8 games a year. We just suck right?

Im not saying that UofM is as good as they were in '97. But the fact remains. Since '97 we have definitely been able to take out several top ranked teams. And have 4 Conference Championships since then. I mean yeah, it's not like it was in '97. But we have still maintained a high level of play since then. Absolutely nothing to sneeze at. Hundreds of programs would kill to have Michigan's success during the past 10 years. And trust me, Im not OK with having no National Championships since '97. But It's not like we crashed down to the depths of despair or anything. Our seasons since then have still been fairly successful. And other than last week, I havent been embarrassed once as a Michigan fan(unlike tons of other programs out there). And trust me, my UofM brethren are very much with me on that.

[timothy1997 0]

I think Michigan fans are missing the point of this thread and are in unfamilar territory. I understand how you feel but resorting back to "michigan is still better than MSU" is derailing the thread.

Michigan has a history of having a great football program. They have more wins than any other school. They also were in contention this year for the National Championship since the final gun in the Rose Bowl earlier this year. They scheduled Appalachian State as a season opener and a "tune-up" game for the REAL season. They were supposed to collaber ASU by 50.

All this stuff didn't happen. David beat Goliath. The underdog one. The last kid picked in dodgeball turned out to be the best player. Michigan made history with this historic loss. Michigan is now unranked.

The question that was asked is where does Michigan go from here. Do they fire the coaching staff? Is having a 9-3 season ok to Michigan fans? Is coming in 2nd in the Big Ten ok to Michigan fans? Ohio State clearly has a better program in recent years...are Michigan fans ok with that?

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

All this stuff didn't happen. David beat Goliath. The underdog one. The last kid picked in dodgeball turned out to be the best player. Michigan made history with this historic loss. Michigan is now unranked.

The question that was asked is where does Michigan go from here. Do they fire the coaching staff? Is having a 9-3 season ok to Michigan fans? Is coming in 2nd in the Big Ten ok to Michigan fans? Ohio State clearly has a better program in recent years...are Michigan fans ok with that?

No they won't fire the coaching staff, but when Lloyd leaves on his own after this year there will be a whole new staff. I hope the next coach keeps a few of the position coaches, because we have some very good ones. Carr, Debord, Moeller, and English can leave though. I just hope Les Miles doesn't come here

Edited September 5, 2007 by mannysBETTER3434

[timothy1997 0]

No they won't fire the coaching staff, but when Lloyd leaves on his own after this year there will be a whole new staff. I hope the next coach keeps a few of the position coaches, because we have some very good ones. Carr, Debord, Moeller, and English can leave though. I just hope Les Miles doesn't come here

Who do you want then?

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

Who do you want then?

I really don't know. I know I'm just glad I'm not making the choice. Even with a football reputation like Michigan it will be hard to get a good coach because it has to be the right fit. I remember when ND hired Willinham (sp?). I thought that guy was the real deal, because he did so much with so little at Stanford. Instead he ran ND into the ground for their standards. I have a Rivals account, and the guys that pop up the most in rumors are Les Miles, Kirk Ferentz, Rich Rodriguez, Brian Kelly, and Jeff Tedford. Out of that list I would want Ferentz or Tedford. I know Ferentz sounds like an impossible scenario, but he was born in Michigan, his daugthers just graduated from U-M, and Mary Sue Coleman hired Ferentz while she was at Iowa.

[WingsZR2 1]

Do any of you really think Les Miles will take less money to come to Michigan? LSU pays him over $3 million a year with use of a private plane. This loss will have devastating effects on this season and recruiting. UNLESS they can win the rest of the games this season. Even if they do, they will never shake this type of loss.

If Les Miles didn't want to coach at Michigan there wouldn't be a clause in his contract that states if he leaves LSU before 2011 he has to pay the school 500K, 1.5 million if that school happens to be Michigan. He has said in the past that his dream is to coach at Michigan. I would welcome him back to AA, I also have no problem with Tedford. As long as Carr isn't roaming the sidelines next year I'm happy.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

Les Miles has said U-M is his dream job, and there is a reason he put a clause on his contract, even though it's tons of money. I still have questions about Miles though. Is his sucess because of Sneaky Saban? In my opinion the guy also looks very shady.

[Guest jaytan]

When was the last time U-M won a National Championship before '97 anyway? The last ten years have been just as good as the ten years that preceeded them.

[timothy1997 0]

When was the last time U-M won a National Championship before '97 anyway? The last ten years have been just as good as the ten years that preceeded them.

List of Div. 1 NCAA Football Champions

1997 was a CO-National Championship shared with Nebraska. Last time Michigan was the National Champion was 1948.

[timothy1997 0]

When was the last time U-M won a National Championship before '97 anyway? The last ten years have been just as good as the ten years that preceeded them.

you had good years and bad years in the Gary Moeller era before Carr. Yes, Moeller got you to the Rose Bowl and won but Michigan also went to the Hall of Fame and Holiday Bowl.

I think what kills a lot of Michigan fans is Carr's Bowl record..5-7 overall but 1-5 last 6 years, only winning the Outback Bowl against Florida in 2002. Carr hasn't won a Rose Bowl since 1997 against Washington State too. Combine that with Carr's record vs Tressel and its clear to see that Michigan is not the top program in the Big Ten currently.

Edited September 5, 2007 by timothy1997

[eva unit zero 271]

List of Div. 1 NCAA Football Champions

1997 was a CO-National Championship shared with Nebraska. Last time Michigan was the National Champion was 1948.

1997 is also the only time a team ranked #1 in both polls going into the bowls won their bowl game and did not win a consensus championship. In fact, some voters dropped the Wolverines from 1st to as low as 6th. Conveniently, Nebraska coach Tom Osborne also just happened to be retiring after that season. Hmm. Interesting. And the next year, they put in a system designed to prevent situations like that... Yep, Nebraska definitely was considered to deserve to be the Co-champion in 1997...

[Guest jaytan]

Yeah, that "co-champions" nonsense was a farce.... though I'm a guy who would have used his AP vote on Boise St. last season.