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RedWingedKitten

University of Michigan - The upset - The future

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That was because Osborne got a nice retirement gift from the good ol' boys club.

And it had nothing to do with his team going undefeated, beating #3 Tennessee in the Orange Bowl compared to Michigan barely sneaking by #8 Washington State in the Rose Bowl.

People forget that Florida State was also undefeated heading into their last season game before Florida ended their chances. If the Seminoles would have won, Michigan wouldn't even get a share of the title...regardless of the outcome of the Rose Bowl.

Edited by timothy1997

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I think what kills a lot of Michigan fans is Carr's Bowl record..5-7 overall but 1-5 last 6 years, only winning the Outback Bowl against Florida in 2002. Carr hasn't won a Rose Bowl since 1997 against Washington State too. Combine that with Carr's record vs Tressel and its clear to see that Michigan is not the top program in the Big Ten currently.

Don't forget about his "first game on the road" record and the ND nut kicking Carr gets....

God I can't wait for Carr to be gone. And I feel sorry for Henne, Hart, and Long... so much potential, so little to show for it.

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1997 is also the only time a team ranked #1 in both polls going into the bowls won their bowl game and did not win a consensus championship. In fact, some voters dropped the Wolverines from 1st to as low as 6th. Conveniently, Nebraska coach Tom Osborne also just happened to be retiring after that season. Hmm. Interesting. And the next year, they put in a system designed to prevent situations like that... Yep, Nebraska definitely was considered to deserve to be the Co-champion in 1997...

Michigan barely beat #8 Washington State 21-16 in the Rose Bowl while #2 Nebraska beat #3 Tennessee 42-17...thats why Michigan lost votes. Not sure tho about dropping them all the way from 1st to 6th tho...gonna have to see a source on that one.

Don't forget about his "first game on the road" record and the ND nut kicking Carr gets....

God I can't wait for Carr to be gone. And I feel sorry for Henne, Hart, and Long... so much potential, so little to show for it.

after ND's performance against Ga Tech tho, the irish have serious problems. Michigan destoryed ND last year so I dont see where the ND nut kicking comes in.

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And it had nothing to do with his team going undefeated, beating #3 Tennessee in the Orange Bowl compared to Michigan barely sneaking by #8 Washington State in the Rose Bowl.

Nebraska won the coaches poll because Michigan didn't just drop to #2 on ballots...they dropped to #6 on some. Nebraska won the coaches poll, compared with Michigan winning the AP, FWAA, and NFF championships.

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Nebraska won the coaches poll because Michigan didn't just drop to #2 on ballots...they dropped to #6 on some. Nebraska won the coaches poll, compared with Michigan winning the AP, FWAA, and NFF championships.

I don't believe thats right. How could a national champ get voted 6th a few times, and still win it all? Their were only three 12-0 teams that year if I remember right: Michigan, Nebraska, and Tulane.

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Michigan barely beat #8 Washington State 21-16 in the Rose Bowl while #2 Nebraska beat #3 Tennessee 42-17...thats why Michigan lost votes.

Nebraska had to come from behind to tie Missouri with seconds left when one of their receivers kicked the ball and another caught it.

A comparable situation? Say the Pistons are down by two points with seconds to go. Wallace tries to shoot, but his shot is blocked by an opposing player. However, when the shot is blocked, it bounces off a teammate and into the hoop, tying the game as time expires. That's the kind of freak play that saved Nebraska's undefeated season. It's like a few years ago, it wouldn't have felt right for Michigan to be the National Champions when they had the lucky kick against Wisconsin, where the punted ball bounced into the returner's leg, and was recovered near the goal line by the Wolverines allowing them to score for the win as time ran out. Michigan had no such close calls in 1997.

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Nebraska had to come from behind to tie Missouri with seconds left when one of their receivers kicked the ball and another caught it.

A comparable situation? Say the Pistons are down by two points with seconds to go. Wallace tries to shoot, but his shot is blocked by an opposing player. However, when the shot is blocked, it bounces off a teammate and into the hoop, tying the game as time expires. That's the kind of freak play that saved Nebraska's undefeated season. It's like a few years ago, it wouldn't have felt right for Michigan to be the National Champions when they had the lucky kick against Wisconsin, where the punted ball bounced into the returner's leg, and was recovered near the goal line by the Wolverines allowing them to score for the win as time ran out. Michigan had no such close calls in 1997.

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. :D

Nebraska's convincing win over a very good Tennessee team combined with Michigan's narrow victory against WSU opened the door a crack to have a split championship.

Anyway..there is no need for a debate here. All I did was state a fact. Michigan is CO-NATIONAL CHAMPIONS in 1997, not NATIONAL CHAMPIONS. THAT IS A FACT!! Debate it all you want in another thread....this thread is about Michigan's future.

Edited by timothy1997

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Michigan barely beat #8 Washington State 21-16 in the Rose Bowl while #2 Nebraska beat #3 Tennessee 42-17...thats why Michigan lost votes. Not sure tho about dropping them all the way from 1st to 6th tho...gonna have to see a source on that one.

after ND's performance against Ga Tech tho, the irish have serious problems. Michigan destoryed ND last year so I dont see where the ND nut kicking comes in.

Do you not remember all the blubbering Tom Osborne did during that season? Esp. in the end? Can't deny your point but you also can't deny that his retirement also didn't sway voters either.

Just a few ND nut kicks recently... All with Michigan in top ten. All first loses. All muted NC talk. But your right what the hell was I thinking?

2005 Michigan ranked 3rd

2004 Michigan ranked 8th

2002 Michigan ranked 7th

Edit: I'm surprised nobody has done a FOIA request for the individual vote sheets from the coaches poll. hmmm might have to think about doing that.

Edited by vangvace

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I have to rephrase...it was that Michigan had been dropped to 3rd by two coaches or 4th by one coach, and no doubt dropped to 2 by some simply because of Osborne's retirement. It's the same kind of shenanigans that were going on a few years back, when coaches were downgrading Oklahoma's opponents in hopes of putting Auburn in the BCS game.

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I think what kills a lot of Michigan fans is Carr's Bowl record..5-7 overall but 1-5 last 6 years, only winning the Outback Bowl against Florida in 2002. Carr hasn't won a Rose Bowl since 1997 against Washington State too. Combine that with Carr's record vs Tressel and its clear to see that Michigan is not the top program in the Big Ten currently.

I think a big reason that the Big Ten as a whole fares so poorly in bowls has a lot to do with the fact that they set themselves up for failure with the tie-ins. Look at the potential bowls:

-Rose Bowl in California against a Pac-10 opponent

-Citrus Bowl in Florida against an SEC opponent

-Outback Bowl in Florida against an SEC opponent

-Alamo Bowl in Texas against a Big 12 opponent

-Champs Sports Bowl in Florida against an ACC opponent

-Insight Bowl in Arizona against a Big 12 opponent

-Motor City Bowl in Detroit against a MAC opponent.

The top 5 Big Ten bowl games are essentially road games with #6 being more of a neutral site, but still much more feasible for the Big 12 fans to travel to. I don't doubt for a second that that plays a major role in the lack of success in bowl games.

I don't think a Michigan fan on the planet would try to claim that they're the top program in the Big Ten at the moment. Pretty clear that everyone is chasing Ohio State.

I have to rephrase...it was that Michigan had been dropped to 3rd by two coaches or 4th by one coach, and no doubt dropped to 2 by some simply because of Osborne's retirement. It's the same kind of shenanigans that were going on a few years back, when coaches were downgrading Oklahoma's opponents in hopes of putting Auburn in the BCS game.

::cough:: Phil Fulmer ::cough::

Because they weren't bitter about Woodson getting the Heisman, no sir.

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Guest jaytan

I agree about playing road games as bowl games, but that's what the Big Ten has done forever and it's something we have to cope with. What we need to do is figure out a way to match up better with those quicker, wide open schools from outside the Midwest.

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Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. :D

Nebraska's convincing win over a very good Tennessee team combined with Michigan's narrow victory against WSU opened the door a crack to have a split championship.

So if "almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades (and not Rose Bowls) then why does the close win play a factor? :P

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It happens...this one was just a big deal because the best Division I-AA team in years beat a Michigan team that was in the top 5, and probably shouldn't have been.

Whatever...it was bound to happen sooner or later. The only real shocker is that no one (myself included) saw this coming. This is 7 times in 7 years that Michigan has screwed around with one of the cupcakes on their schedule.

-App State this year...actually lost.

-Ball State last year had 5 cracks inside the 10 yard line with a chance to tie the game late.

-Northwestern had us in a 10-3 game late in the third quarter last year, granted the weather was awful.

-Vanderbilt had us in a 13-7 game late in the third quarter last year.

-In 2004, San Diego State missed two field goals that would've tied the game (and we trailed at halftime).

-In 2002, Utah had the ball on their own 32 needing just a field goal to tie in the closing minutes.

-In 2001, Miami (OH) trailed just 17-6 in the third quarter and had a pass picked off in the endzone--which could've made it a 3 or 4 point game.

Miami was the only one of those teams that ended the season with a winning record. So an average of once a year we dick around with a team we should slaughter...and in 4 of those 7 games (counting App State) we could've/did lose.

When you factor in the tendancy to take cupcake opponents lightly and add in the fact that they run a spread offense and have a running QB (the two things that have given Michigan fits over the years), and consider that App State likely had this game circled as the chance to do for their program what Boise State did in beating Oklahoma, and that Michigan was probably just trying to get through the game without showing anything to Oregon, Notre Dame, or Penn State, it's a wonder we didn't see this coming.....

Good post. While I was as shocked as everyone at the upset, I remember all of the above games you listed. I actually expect that Michigan will not stomp on "less talented" opponents shall we say. And if you don't put them away to a certain degree - you always leave that door open for the other team to find a way to win late - IIA or not (Nebraska Alamo Bowl 2005?).

You would think for the next 20 years Michigan will not fall into the trap of not taking its opposition seriously...

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Please take off your "dont know jack" glasses first.

Since the National Championship in '97:

1998 - 10 wins - Beat a 9th ranked Penn State, Beat an 8th ranked Wisconsin, and an 11th ranked Arkansas - Big Ten Champs

1999 - 10 wins - Beat a 5th ranked Alabama, Beat a 6th ranked Penn State, Beat an 11th ranked Purdue

2000 - 9 wins - Beat a 12th ranked Ohio State - Big Ten Champs

2002 - 10 wins - Beat an 11th ranked Washington

2003 - 10 wins - Beat a 4th ranked Ohio State - Big Ten Champs

2004 - 9 wins - Big Ten Champs

2006 - 11 wins - Beat a 2nd ranked Notre Dame

Yeah we only win 8 games a year. :rolleyes: We just suck right?

Im not saying that UofM is as good as they were in '97. But the fact remains. Since '97 we have definitely been able to take out several top ranked teams. And have 4 Conference Championships since then. I mean yeah, it's not like it was in '97. But we have still maintained a high level of play since then. Absolutely nothing to sneeze at. Hundreds of programs would kill to have Michigan's success during the past 10 years. And trust me, Im not OK with having no National Championships since '97. But It's not like we crashed down to the depths of despair or anything. Our seasons since then have still been fairly successful. And other than last week, I havent been embarrassed once as a Michigan fan(unlike tons of other programs out there). And trust me, my UofM brethren are very much with me on that. ;)

:clap::clap: Wonderful the little Wolverine fan can look up stats. Anybody can point to one year or a couple and say we did this. But no where did I say in any of my posts that UM were bad. In fact they have been a very good top 20 throughout Coach Carr's tenure with a couple of top 10 (I believe there were 3) sprinkled in there. But most Wolverine fans want a top 5 and let's be honest with one self; they haven't been except for 2 of them. Most experts of college football (which you do not seem to be one of them) would not rank them among the elite of college football. Maybe you need to understand what an elite football team is. Southern Cal is probably at the top of the list of most people but that was an easy one. OSU would be there Florida, Texas, and Oklahoma (they are slipping a little bit) would be most people's top 5 with LSU coming on strong. These top 5 are the teams that have won (BCS) national championships. Let's look at some others Tennessee, West Virginia, Auburn, California, Georgia, Louisville, and Michigan would match up very well with this group. Now you can be very satisfied with that as most people would be. But if you were a true Michigan man you would not be satisfied at all. In fact you be like my brother (class of 90), he is made as hell and extremely embarrassed. Of course I have had a little fun at his expense this week. Now you can fight with a lot of MSU grads (there good people and I am not one) on this site, but that will get you no where. Maybe you should start thinking how UM will change it around. If you have done this already my apologies, I do not read every post.

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Most experts of college football (which you do not seem to be one of them) would not rank them among the elite of college football. Maybe you need to understand what an elite football team is. Southern Cal is probably at the top of the list of most people but that was an easy one. OSU would be there Florida, Texas, and Oklahoma (they are slipping a little bit) would be most people's top 5 with LSU coming on strong. These top 5 are the teams that have won (BCS) national championships. Let's look at some others Tennessee, West Virginia, Auburn, California, Georgia, Louisville, and Michigan would match up very well with this group.

Just a few things:

Tennessee hasn't lost less than 3 games since 2001 and they've gone 8-5, 10-3, 10-3, 5-6(!!), 9-4 in that span.

West Virginia has had two good seasons in a row. Before that they were consistently losing 4, 5, 8(!) games a season.

Auburn had their one special year, but they have only had one other season with 2 or less losses going back a decade (though I guess we've only had 3), and they aren't so far removed from having teams that were well under .500

Cal's been a better program lately but even since their resurgence from pitifulness, they've gone 5, 6, 2, 4, 3 in terms of losses.

Georgia has consistently been a 3-4 loss team for awhile.

Louisville is one of the sexy teams right now, but (as much as I love them) they still haven't proven it against any of the big boys (Wake Forest doesn't count).

If you're looking at a snapshot in time, right now, I can see comparing Michigan to some of these programs...but if you truly want to rank the PROGRAMS (as opposed to looking at the past year or two) some of those teams have a ways to go before they can be put alongside a team like Michigan. Auburn and Georgia are actually fairly good comparisons--though like I said, Auburn isn't that far removed from really sucking. Louisville and WVA are kind of the flavors of the month, but they've got a long way to go in consistency before they can be mentioned as truly elite teams.

The thing about Michigan, compared to almost all of those teams you mentioned is that Michigan hasn't even fallen off the cliff that the others have. Cal was a 1 win program. Louisville was irrelevant for a good long while, same with WVA. Tennessee was 5-6 one year. Even Auburn has only gotten going in the relatively recent past.

Even one of your "big boys" in Florida had 3 straight 5 loss seasons in 02, 03, 04 and then a 3 loss season before they finally broke through last year. I think it's a stretch to call them an elite program at this point. They could certainly get there, but one great year after a half-decade of being very, very mediocre doesn't make a program elite IMO. And I think you could make a case that even last year's team wasn't elite. They smoked Ohio State, but they won in pretty ugly fashion a lot of the games last year. They were the best college football had to offer last year, but that doesn't necessarily make them all that special.

I can't argue with having OSU, USC, Texas, or even Oklahoma in that mix. And I don't mean to suggest that Michigan should be that fifth team....I wouldn't argue too much about LSU being in there. But I do think in terms of ranking the programs, you'd have to put Michigan ahead of most everyone that you put them on that next tier with. Auburn and Georgia would be pretty comparable, but not the others.

If this was a reality show, Michigan would be that contestant that just flies under the radar....never really wins challenges, but never ends up at judge's table either. They haven't risen to the level of success as some of these programs, but they also have only had one truly BAD season (7-5) in the last 20+ years (going back to that 6-6 year in 1984 when Harbaugh broke his arm). Sure I wish they had more of those "high end" seasons, but there's also something to be said for being consistently good year after year. And there are a LOT of programs out there who would kill for a track record like that.

Just some food for thought....

Edited by Packer487

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Just a few things:

Tennessee hasn't lost less than 3 games since 2001 and they've gone 8-5, 10-3, 10-3, 5-6(!!), 9-4 in that span.

West Virginia has had two good seasons in a row. Before that they were consistently losing 4, 5, 8(!) games a season.

Auburn had their one special year, but they have only had one other season with 2 or less losses going back a decade (though I guess we've only had 3), and they aren't so far removed from having teams that were well under .500

Cal's been a better program lately but even since their resurgence from pitifulness, they've gone 5, 6, 2, 4, 3 in terms of losses.

Georgia has consistently been a 3-4 loss team for awhile.

Louisville is one of the sexy teams right now, but (as much as I love them) they still haven't proven it against any of the big boys (Wake Forest doesn't count).

If you're looking at a snapshot in time, right now, I can see comparing Michigan to some of these programs...but if you truly want to rank the PROGRAMS (as opposed to looking at the past year or two) some of those teams have a ways to go before they can be put alongside a team like Michigan. Auburn and Georgia are actually fairly good comparisons--though like I said, Auburn isn't that far removed from really sucking. Louisville and WVA are kind of the flavors of the month, but they've got a long way to go in consistency before they can be mentioned as truly elite teams.

The thing about Michigan, compared to almost all of those teams you mentioned is that Michigan hasn't even fallen off the cliff that the others have. Cal was a 1 win program. Louisville was irrelevant for a good long while, same with WVA. Tennessee was 5-6 one year. Even Auburn has only gotten going in the relatively recent past.

Even one of your "big boys" in Florida had 3 straight 5 loss seasons in 02, 03, 04 and then a 3 loss season before they finally broke through last year. I think it's a stretch to call them an elite program at this point. They could certainly get there, but one great year after a half-decade of being very, very mediocre doesn't make a program elite IMO. And I think you could make a case that even last year's team wasn't elite. They smoked Ohio State, but they won in pretty ugly fashion a lot of the games last year. They were the best college football had to offer last year, but that doesn't necessarily make them all that special.

I can't argue with having OSU, USC, Texas, or even Oklahoma in that mix. And I don't mean to suggest that Michigan should be that fifth team....I wouldn't argue too much about LSU being in there. But I do think in terms of ranking the programs, you'd have to put Michigan ahead of most everyone that you put them on that next tier with. Auburn and Georgia would be pretty comparable, but not the others.

If this was a reality show, Michigan would be that contestant that just flies under the radar....never really wins challenges, but never ends up at judge's table either. They haven't risen to the level of success as some of these programs, but they also have only had one truly BAD season (7-5) in the last 20+ years (going back to that 6-6 year in 1984 when Harbaugh broke his arm). Sure I wish they had more of those "high end" seasons, but there's also something to be said for being consistently good year after year. And there are a LOT of programs out there who would kill for a track record like that.

Just some food for thought....

Packer: in your last paragraph I have to agree with you, that is UM to a T. And I didn't say this before, but most teams would kill with a 100 year record UM has. With Florida I had to put them there in the top 5. They destroyed OSU last year and if Tebow is as good as they say, they will fight USC for another national championship. Yes they have had there trouble, but right now they are pretty good. Give all I have said that was negative I have to give UM a lot of credit. Of all the elite teams I have mention what do they have going for them UM doesn't? There are from states that are loaded with high school talent, nobody ever mentions this. Michigan high schools have some very good talent, but not an abundance of it like Florida, Texas, California and Ohio has. UM has recruited all over the U.S. and even has gotten talent from Canada. These other teams have only 1 thing on UM or MSU for that matter, they have a ton of local talent to choose from. While I am being nice about UM (thank God my brother is not on this site) I have to say I have met Lloyd Carr in person and he is without question one of the nicest gentleman I ever had the pleasure of meeting. He cares a lot about his players and the university. I do not know what has happen to the team in recent years, but he is one good person. That nice B.S is over now, but it is true.

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Packer: in your last paragraph I have to agree with you, that is UM to a T. And I didn't say this before, but most teams would kill with a 100 year record UM has. With Florida I had to put them there in the top 5. They destroyed OSU last year and if Tebow is as good as they say, they will fight USC for another national championship. Yes they have had there trouble, but right now they are pretty good. Give all I have said that was negative I have to give UM a lot of credit. Of all the elite teams I have mention what do they have going for them UM doesn't? There are from states that are loaded with high school talent, nobody ever mentions this. Michigan high schools have some very good talent, but not an abundance of it like Florida, Texas, California and Ohio has. UM has recruited all over the U.S. and even has gotten talent from Canada. These other teams have only 1 thing on UM or MSU for that matter, they have a ton of local talent to choose from. While I am being nice about UM (thank God my brother is not on this site) I have to say I have met Lloyd Carr in person and he is without question one of the nicest gentleman I ever had the pleasure of meeting. He cares a lot about his players and the university. I do not know what has happen to the team in recent years, but he is one good person. That nice B.S is over now, but it is true.

That is a really good point about the high school talent in state. Michigan's decent in that regard, but nothing compared to the four states you mentioned. Thankfully we pull our share of players out of OH and PA, but that is an advantage for some of those other schools. Also--and OSU has the same problem--we have to deal with the weather.

Hard to talk a teenage kid into coming to play football at your school when schools like USC can show them 80 and sunny with gorgeous girls in bikinis. Quite honestly, it's amazing that we get as many recruits as we do.

If I was a potential college recruit, I'd be Blue all the way, but you bet your ass I'd take my other recruiting visits to Texas (those girls in chaps....mmm!), USC, UCLA, and one of the Florida schools. :D

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That is a really good point about the high school talent in state. Michigan's decent in that regard, but nothing compared to the four states you mentioned. Thankfully we pull our share of players out of OH and PA, but that is an advantage for some of those other schools. Also--and OSU has the same problem--we have to deal with the weather.

Hard to talk a teenage kid into coming to play football at your school when schools like USC can show them 80 and sunny with gorgeous girls in bikinis. Quite honestly, it's amazing that we get as many recruits as we do.

If I was a potential college recruit, I'd be Blue all the way, but you bet your ass I'd take my other recruiting visits to Texas (those girls in chaps....mmm!), USC, UCLA, and one of the Florida schools. :D

The Florida schools are great, the women are incredible. When I lived down there I was fortunate to get to see the top 3 play at there home stadiums and the atmosphere at all of them was so electric. I had a great time at all of them. I have been to Austin, but I didn't see a Horns game. That was a fun town to party in, so the games might be a lot of fun to. I don't have to say anything about California, everybody knows those advantages. So UM and MSU have to be great recruiters just to compete.

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And it had nothing to do with his team going undefeated, beating #3 Tennessee in the Orange Bowl compared to Michigan barely sneaking by #8 Washington State in the Rose Bowl.

People forget that Florida State was also undefeated heading into their last season game before Florida ended their chances. If the Seminoles would have won, Michigan wouldn't even get a share of the title...regardless of the outcome of the Rose Bowl.

Whats the point of that post? FSU didn't win. Who cares if U-M squeked past the No. 8 team in the country. A win is a win. Michigan was voted No. 1 by 3 of the 4 polls. Enough said.

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Whats the point of that post? FSU didn't win. Who cares if U-M squeked past the No. 8 team in the country. A win is a win. Michigan was voted No. 1 by 3 of the 4 polls. Enough said.

But yet they're still co-national champions. It's like how the USC fans seem to forget that LSU won the BCS national championship in 2003-04.

More proof that D1 needs a playoff. I think the 97 UM team would have beat the 97 Nebraska team, but we'll never know.

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But yet they're still co-national champions. It's like how the USC fans seem to forget that LSU won the BCS national championship in 2003-04.

More proof that D1 needs a playoff. I think the 97 UM team would have beat the 97 Nebraska team, but we'll never know.

Thats exactly right....

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Guest jaytan

There's good high-school talent in the Midwest (especially Ohio, which the Wolverines have to raid every season), but the talent in Florida and California is better for college football.

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