Complicated Osgood Question

[eva unit zero 271]

Hah! You have Osgood ahead of Grant Fuhr? And I thought I was a homer. I know Grant Fuhr played with great players, but so did every elite goalie in league history. That doesn't diminish what he did. And what the hell is Tommy Salo doing on that list? Why don't you put Lalime and Cechmanek on that list while you're at it?

If Osgood posts a couple more solid seasons, there's no reason he can't be ahead of Fuhr. Fuhr played on possibly the most talented team in NHL history, at a time when the talent was at its most watered down. Think about that for a second; the Oilers were a team that would have been successful in ANY era, and they were playing in an era where talented players were hard to come by (the talent pool was not significantly bigger than the O6 era as until the end of the 80s, Europeans were generally unavailable, and skilled Americans were rare. The Oilers had enough of the top talent to compete in a six-team league. Now consider that the other five teams worth of that six teams was spread out across 20 teams. If we assume for sake of argument that the 1/6 was evenly distributed among the positions (1/6 of the top defensemen and forwards) that means that to have a team with talent distribution and dominance like the Oilers, you might be looking at this set of top six forwards/top four defensemen:

Sidney Crosby/Jarome Iginla/Henrik Zetterberg/Pavel Datsyuk/Ryan Smyth/Evgeni Malkin

Nicklas Lidstrom/Tomas Kaberle/Robyn Regher/Chris Phillips

Fuhr was a good goalie, but no doubt having a truly stacked team in front of him helped his success.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

If Osgood posts a couple more solid seasons, there's no reason he can't be ahead of Fuhr. Fuhr played on possibly the most talented team in NHL history, at a time when the talent was at its most watered down. Think about that for a second; the Oilers were a team that would have been successful in ANY era, and they were playing in an era where talented players were hard to come by (the talent pool was not significantly bigger than the O6 era as until the end of the 80s, Europeans were generally unavailable, and skilled Americans were rare. The Oilers had enough of the top talent to compete in a six-team league. Now consider that the other five teams worth of that six teams was spread out across 20 teams. If we assume for sake of argument that the 1/6 was evenly distributed among the positions (1/6 of the top defensemen and forwards) that means that to have a team with talent distribution and dominance like the Oilers, you might be looking at this set of top six forwards/top four defensemen:

Sidney Crosby/Jarome Iginla/Henrik Zetterberg/Pavel Datsyuk/Ryan Smyth/Evgeni Malkin

Nicklas Lidstrom/Tomas Kaberle/Robyn Regher/Chris Phillips

Fuhr was a good goalie, but no doubt having a truly stacked team in front of him helped his success.

Guess what? Sawchuk and Plante both played for teams that were more stacked than the opposition in a 6 team league. Should Osgood be ahead of those guys too? Yes the Oilers scored a lot, but Fuhr made the big saves when he had to. Osgood has 1 cup to his credit, and let's be honest, we won the cup in spite of his play and not because of it. Every legendary NHL player played with tons of talent around him. Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Hull, Richard, etc. That doesn't diminsh their accomplishments in my opinion.

[Houdini 0]

I think 400+ wins would be hard to ignore, but like most goalie stats, I hate it, because it is more to due to the team.

Here's the thing, look at all goalies that played for the Wings over the past 15-20 years:

Hasek - .717 win %

Joseph - .619 win %

Chelveldae - .575 win %

Vernon - .659 win %

Hodson - .625 win %

Maracle - .594 win %

Wregget - .577 win %

Legace - .736 win %

Do any goalies not have a great record with the Wings?

Quoted for truth. Seriously, if any of the goalies above played for the Wings as long as Osgood has they'd have as many wins as Osgood. The stats above prove it. This is why you just can't put a goalie in the HOF based on a team stat like wins.

Bottom line is Ozzie was/is a good goalie. But he was never considered a great goalie.

- Houdini

[eva unit zero 271]

Guess what? Sawchuk and Plante both played for teams that were more stacked than the opposition in a 6 team league. Should Osgood be ahead of those guys too? Yes the Oilers scored a lot, but Fuhr made the big saves when he had to. Osgood has 1 cup to his credit, and let's be honest, we won the cup in spite of his play and not because of it. Every legendary NHL player played with tons of talent around him. Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Hull, Richard, etc. That doesn't diminsh their accomplishments in my opinion.

Osgood was second in Smythe voting in 1998. If the Wings won in spite of his play, and he was still the second most valuable player on the team, Yzerman's 98 playoff performance must have been the greatest month and a half of hockey ever seen or yet to be seen, as he completely dominated the opposition en route to singlehandedly winning the championship despite the fact all of his teammates were dragging him down. Osgood succeeded on teams that weren't stacked. Fuhr failed miserably anywhere other than Edmonton's 80s teams. He was great, but not THAT great.

[Offsides 21]

Guess what? Sawchuk and Plante both played for teams that were more stacked than the opposition in a 6 team league. Should Osgood be ahead of those guys too? Yes the Oilers scored a lot, but Fuhr made the big saves when he had to. Osgood has 1 cup to his credit, and let's be honest, we won the cup in spite of his play and not because of it. Every legendary NHL player played with tons of talent around him. Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Hull, Richard, etc. That doesn't diminsh their accomplishments in my opinion.

Wow, that is such BS. We didn't win the Cup in spite of him. That's the kind of attitude that's made Ozzie overlooked all of his career, but it's such complete crap, and at this point, I think that's clear. I think everyone just expected him to roll over and retire all these years because he wasn't good enough to handle the big bad NHL, but you know..he never has, and he continues to do well wherever he goes.

He's been extremely versatile bending his role to become the backup here...not because he couldn't be starter but because he loves Detroit. Since Ozzie's been on the team the team's been extremely successful, in part because he's a very good goalie and has done his part when needed to.

Every other player in the NHL's talent is not diminished by with good players ... well except Ozzie who apparently drags down the Wings....biggest crap statement I've ever heard....and talking out both sides of your mouth. Please explain how the Wings had to win despite Ozzie? Utter rubbish.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Unfortuantely it'd be a tough sell for Osgood to get in the Hall of Fame I think.

He certainly had the numbers to make a strong case, and he certainly had to do his part to win games for the Wings in the earlier part of his career, but it's not like he was completely carrying the Wings to W's, especially in the middle part of his career before he played with the Islanders.

Would I definitely like to see Osgood get considered and get in? Absolutely. He has the career numbers for the most part, and I love his attitude and being a team player.

Unfortunately, I just don't think he has the popularity/political clout to get in, and also him being a team player and "splitting time" or being "backup" these past few seasons back in Detroit, when he could easily be starting just about anywhere else if he didn't have the injury bug the past few seasons along with the current goalie situation hurts his cause.

DISCLAIMER: To the big Osgood fans, I am not "doubting" him or trying to intentionally snub him in any way. I really like Osgood and hope he gets in, and I'm just one opinionated dimwit (thankfully), but I just don't see it happening.

[Grittzkey 1]

if this year he can some how sneak past hasek as our top goalie.. and win the cup this year, and be solid for next couple. i think he has a shot.

But as it is now, i say NO. Osgood is good, but isnt a great. The 5 Hole King, really has no shot, but osgood is a great player and he is the only goalie id want in net for the wings.

[eva unit zero 271]

if this year he can some how sneak past hasek as our top goalie.. and win the cup this year, and be solid for next couple. i think he has a shot.

But as it is now, i say NO. Osgood is good, but isnt a great. The 5 Hole King, really has no shot, but osgood is a great player and he is the only goalie id want in net for the wings.

The 5 Hole king?

Let's try and avoid throwing out baseless slams just for the sake of stirring the pot.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I dont see why not. By the end of his career, he'll have 400 wins. 3 or 4 cups, starter+back-up, a jennings trophy, and a good career GAA and SV%. And by the time he retires, I'd imagine the title of "Best Back-Up Ever" would be his .

[eva unit zero 271]

I dont see why not. By the end of his career, he'll have 400 wins. 3 or 4 cups, starter+back-up, a jennings trophy, and a good career GAA and SV%. And by the time he retires, I'd imagine the title of "Best Back-Up Ever" would be his .

Nope, that's Andy Moog.

In 1985 and 1986, Grant Fuhr started the All-Star game, and Andy Moog was the only spare goaltender for the Campbell Conference. In both seasons, he finished top six in Vezina voting and postseason All-Star team voting. As a backup.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Wow, that is such BS. We didn't win the Cup in spite of him. That's the kind of attitude that's made Ozzie overlooked all of his career, but it's such complete crap, and at this point, I think that's clear. I think everyone just expected him to roll over and retire all these years because he wasn't good enough to handle the big bad NHL, but you know..he never has, and he continues to do well wherever he goes.

He's been extremely versatile bending his role to become the backup here...not because he couldn't be starter but because he loves Detroit. Since Ozzie's been on the team the team's been extremely successful, in part because he's a very good goalie and has done his part when needed to.

Every other player in the NHL's talent is not diminished by with good players ... well except Ozzie who apparently drags down the Wings....biggest crap statement I've ever heard....and talking out both sides of your mouth. Please explain how the Wings had to win despite Ozzie? Utter rubbish.

Thank the lord you just posted what you did Jen because I was about to go off and it wouldn't have been pretty.

I can't believe till this day that people say the Wings won in spite of him. Out of the last three cup years, 98 was by far the least talented among the bunch. Ozzie had to play out of his mind for most games. Look at the Yotes, and Stars series, both in which HE turned the series around. There were at least three games I can recall in which Ozzie even stole the Wings a win. Let's not forget that he was only a few votes behind in 2nd for the Smythe. And there's a reason Stevie gave him the Cup first above everyone else. Ozzie played great and he deserved that cup because he freaking earned it. Nuff said.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Thank the lord you just posted what you did Jen because I was about to go off and it wouldn't have been pretty.

I can't believe till this day that people say the Wings won in spite of him. Out of the last three cup years, 98 was by far the least talented among the bunch. Ozzie had to play out of his mind for most games. Look at the Yotes, and Stars series, both in which HE turned the series around. There were at least three games I can recall in which Ozzie even stole the Wings a win. Let's not forget that he was only a few votes behind in 2nd for the Smythe. And there's a reason Stevie gave him the Cup first above everyone else. Ozzie played great and he deserved that cup because he freaking earned it. Nuff said.

People overlook how well he played in 98 because of the 2 Roenick goals he gave up, and the Langenbrunner goal. I dont agree however, the game after he gave up the softie, he shut out the Stars and they were done. Plus he was rock solid agaisnt the Caps.

[OsGOD 3]

I find it humorous all this heated Ozzie HoF talk and numbers being retired.. he still has a few good playing years left and nobody except those actually making the decisions really know the truth.

[Offsides 21]

Personally it doesn't even bother me when people say he won't be in the hall, or he won't be retired, because there's a huge chance he won't and everyone is entitled to their opinions, and usually they are pretty reasonable about it.

I think he should be, and I hope he will be, but realize that there's a huge possibility he won't.

I just hate when to make their point people have to discredit everything he's done...it makes me make a face. People are still entitled to their opinion, but grar!

[eva unit zero 271]

Just a frame of reference for you guys:

Hall of fame goaltenders who played at least 50% of their career in the Original Six era (1942-43 to 1966-67) and number of O6 years with minimum 20 games played. There should be a total of 300 O6 years played by that standard; 25 years of two goalies on six teams. Let's see how much of the NHL's goalies from that era are in the Hall, shall we?

Terry Sawchuk, 17

Harry Lumley, 12

Glenn Hall, 12

Jacques Plante, 11

Gump Worsley, 11

Johnny Bower, 10

Bill Durnan, 7

Chuck Rayner, 7

Frank Brimsek, 6

Turk Broda, 6

Total 99

Ten goalies to represent 25 years. Average O6 career length of 9.9 years, meaning an average 4 of 12 goalies from a given O6 year would be Hall of Famers. We'll assume that the chances of a goalie making the hall relative to his peers in the 80s and 90s drops by 50%, from 1/3 to 1/6. That still nets us an average of about 8-9 Hall of Fame level goaltenders for the time period. Based on my top ten list, that number sounds pretty close to what we should have when all is said and done. And Osgood is in that group.

[OsGOD 3]

Personally it doesn't even bother me when people say he won't be in the hall, or he won't be retired, because there's a huge chance he won't and everyone is entitled to their opinions, and usually they are pretty reasonable about it.

I think he should be, and I hope he will be, but realize that there's a huge possibility he won't.

I just hate when to make their point people have to discredit everything he's done...it makes me make a face. People are still entitled to their opinion, but grar!

Well of course ... that wasn't directed at you.. its to all those pessimists so set on declaring a HoF loss when really they have no basis...

You don't hear me going around spewing out about how i don't think people who make a career about laying on their backs should get into the HoF although i really feel it... haha oh man yeah i am talking hockey goalies... not.. ummm yeah

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Based on my top ten list, that number sounds pretty close to what we should have when all is said and done. And Osgood is in that group.

You're making two BIG assumptions. 1. That the hall of fame selection committee is that mechanical and mathematical in its selections (I highly doubt it) and 2. That anyone outside of Detroit shares your opinion on Osgood.

I'm sorry, but I really don't think any goalie to play for Detroit in the past couple of decades deserves to be in the Hall of Fame based on what they accomplished while in Detroit. Hasek and Cujo's potential entrence into the hall isn't in any way based on their stay in Detroit, we're just an astrix in their careers. Vernon proved he was a champion with Calgary, so he has a leg up on Osgood (though I doubt he'll get in either). Hasek will always be that guy who single-handedly dominated the league with Buffalo. From 1974-75 until Hasek left Buffalo they had only missed the playoffs 3 times (only once with Hasek). When he left they missed 3 times in a row. Look at the goaltending hole in Colorado with Roy gone, or the excessive playoff choking of Turco in the absence of Broduer... and just imagine the gap a retired Broduer will leave in New Jersey. Even the most imaginative Osgood fans can't say he is responcible for Detroit's success, you can't make that claim about any goalie we've had since Sawchuk.

Osgood started playing for us regularly in 1993-94, the previous season we were 47-28-9, the first season with Osgood we were 46-30-8. Next to no difference. Our last season before trading Osgood we were 49-20-9-4, the following season we were 51-17-10-4.. again, very little difference. In fact, on both occasions we had better records without Osgood (though the difference is minute). We've won 3 recent cups, 2 with goalies not named Osgood. Since we obtained Osgood we've had 3 Selke trophy winners, and 6 Norris trophy winners (and a hand full of guys that got runner up). The last time a Wing won a Vezina? 1954-55 (Sawchuk, tho back then a Vezina was basically a Jennings). You just can't rationally say that any Detroit goalie deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, because it has never EVER been our goaltending that's made the difference between Presidents trophy and out of the playoffs, or between cup and first round exit (our 1st round exits are purely the fault of cold scorers, not poor goaltending). We could put most any half-way decent goalie between the pipes and he'd have plenty of wins.

If Osgood won another cup as a starter, or got above Tony Esposito in wins, he may be able to get in based on stats(and who knows, he may). However, I doubt it. That being said, claiming Osgood deserves to be in the hall of fame on the basis that there are a lack of clear hall of fame favorites really kind of belittles the honor.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Also, one other thing to consider when thinking about the hall of fame is this: They usually only induct 3-4 guys per year. Usually, at least one of those inductions goes to a builder/coach or ref. Some of the best hockey players (statistically) are just now retiring and will really backlog the hall. Not to mention, the hall of fame is slowly slowly filling in all their gaps now that the iron curtain is down and it's okay to acknowledge that Soviet hockey absolutely dominated North American. I mean, Valeri Kharlamov was just recently inducted (the only other exclusively Soviet player in there other than Tretiak). I think, considering how dominant the soviets were (in the 9 years they participated in the olympics for hockey they won 7 gold, 1 silver, and 1 bronze) you're going to see more legendary Russians in the hall of fame (like Igor's KLM linemates and such). I think it's going to be less and less likely to see debatable inclusions in the hall of fame (at least for a while).

[StormJH1 231]

Osgood will not even be close to making it into the Hall, as much as I like him as a Wing. Yes, he won a Cup, but he essentially ceased to be a number 1 goaltender by the age of 30. His wins and GAA will be viewed as much a product of the great Wings teams he played for as anything else. If you need proof, look at how he played for St. Louis and NYI as a younger goaltender. He wasn't terrible there, but certainly not Hall worthy. Cam Ward is on a similar career path to Chris Osgood right now, and nobody's tapping him for the Hall either.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Osgood will not even be close to making it into the Hall, as much as I like him as a Wing. Yes, he won a Cup, but he essentially ceased to be a number 1 goaltender by the age of 30. His wins and GAA will be viewed as much a product of the great Wings teams he played for as anything else. If you need proof, look at how he played for St. Louis and NYI as a younger goaltender. He wasn't terrible there, but certainly not Hall worthy. Cam Ward is on a similar career path to Chris Osgood right now, and nobody's tapping him for the Hall either.

There's no HOF talk for Cam Ward because he's 23.

I think there's still hope for him yet before we call him the next Jim Carey.

Edited November 13, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[toby91_ca 620]

Osgood will not even be close to making it into the Hall, as much as I like him as a Wing. Yes, he won a Cup, but he essentially ceased to be a number 1 goaltender by the age of 30. His wins and GAA will be viewed as much a product of the great Wings teams he played for as anything else. If you need proof, look at how he played for St. Louis and NYI as a younger goaltender. He wasn't terrible there, but certainly not Hall worthy. Cam Ward is on a similar career path to Chris Osgood right now, and nobody's tapping him for the Hall either.

Osgood didn't player for St. Louis and NYI as a younger goalie (younger than he is now I suppose, but you make it seem like that's where he started his career before coming to the Wings).

Why bring up Cam Ward, suggesting that he is on the Osgood path and nobody is tapping him for the Hall. The guy is 23 years old. I think technically, last year was his rookie year.

[interminded 1]

Cam Ward is on a similar career path to Chris Osgood right now, and nobody's tapping him for the Hall either.

Similar ?

Because Chris Osgood was a goalie too at age 23 ?

That's about as similar as it gets at this point in Cam Ward's career.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

As I've said before, some of you who think that Ozzie is HOF worthy are too far in the forest to see the trees. Just stop and think for a minute if Ozzie screams Hall of Famer to you. If he does, then you're a homer who doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to hockey. The HOF is for elite players, and Ozzie is not an elite. Some of his numbers are impressive, but that's not all it takes to get into the HOF.

[DEVILSWATERBOY 10]

Let's be honest, ignore stats, how many actually think of him as one of the elite goalies over the past 20 years? I can't imagine there are many that do. His number of wins is clearly a benefit from playing with the Wings.

I'M not a big Ozzie fan but his stats say he can be considered an elite goalie by the time his NHL career is over, Now even your top goalies on that list have had there runs of bad luck while in net yes we all realize that Ozzie has been on a great team in Detroit since he broke into the league is it luck of the draw yes it is but you need to be lucky to be good

[HenryMalredo 2]

As I've said before, some of you who think that Ozzie is HOF worthy are too far in the forest to see the trees. Just stop and think for a minute if Ozzie screams Hall of Famer to you. If he does, then you're a homer who doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to hockey. The HOF is for elite players, and Ozzie is not an elite. Some of his numbers are impressive, but that's not all it takes to get into the HOF.

Exactly. The getting into the HHOF is not like getting into Cooperstown. Stats are good, but perception and reputation is even more important. Chris Osgood is generally percieved as a solid goalie and a likable fellow. Nothing more than that.