Dom Drops Ball, Ozzie Answers Call

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Topic starter said it was Dom's first "bad" game in a long time, yet why was this thread created then?

Actually I said "it was his worst game in a LONG time." Meaning, since I know all goalies have ups and downs, that this game was a MAJOR down for Hasek.

Topic starter was wrong though.

This was Hasek's worst game this year.

[gcom007 1,465]

The Red Wings outshoot their opponents night after night, they're defense, while it didn't play the greatest game last night as far as odd man rushes, worked hard to stop them before they became anything. Some people saying wanting Dom to take a back up role is stupid because of his slow starts or that "its just 1 game"

But here are the facts:

Dom is used to seeing 15-20 shots a game and GAA nearing 3

Dom as a starter is 5-3-1 in 9 starts, playing on a dominant team in the NHL

Dom has a save percentage of 86.9% (the worst among goaltenders)

Dom has seen an average of 20 shots a game, 37 goaltenders have seen more shots

Ozzie's GAA is 1.58 (third in the NHL)

Ozzie has a record 8-1-0 to start the season and plays solid as hell

Ozzie's save percentage is 93.1 (seventh best in the league

Ozzie has seen an average of 24 shots a game

How do you look the facts in the face, and say to stick with Dom and that Osgood is the "backup"? How has the defense played worse in front of Dom, considering shots on goal?

I ask again, for all the stick with Dom believers: How many losses merit reconsidering the distribution of starts? How many bad performances in sharp contrast to excellent play makes one reconcider the "starter"? How long do you plan to give Dom to shake off a slow start? When is the goalies play and preparation the goalies responsibilty? Are we really going to stick with a goaltender as a starter in fear that he'll throw a tantrum and retire? How many times have people ridden Osgood for not even terrible play, but shaky games? Are these people now defending Dom for what can only be called horendous goaltending? And finally, the question I've asked numerous times:

When is Dom going to play poorly enough, and Osgood play well enough, for people to finally notice whats right in their face?

Wow, far better than I've said it...

For me, I've been calling it like this since midseason last year. It just seems like things have slowly but surely continued to go downhill since then. Conversely, for Osgood, things have continued to get better and better. If Hasek gets his s*** together to play well split them til the playoffs and go with who's best down the stretch, but I'm wary.

1st round and out with Cujo. Cup win and into the semifinals with Dom.

Cujo maybe didn't bring enough to the table, if we use the same logic as with Hasek last season. We can't have this both ways, kids. The team was involved in both playoffs, for better or worse... not just the goalie in either case.

Either the past is revelant, or it's not.

Funny though, every year we've sucked in the playoffs we DON'T SCORE!!!!!!!! All our goalies could let in one goal on 74 shots/game and we could lose given the way we scored in those years. Babcock got the skaters going and playing a tougher, grittier game than they have since they've been successful in the playoffs. That was the difference. I don't say this to knock Hasek so much as to state that your point (or lack thereof...) is just completely irrelevant when you look at the big picture.

[eva unit zero 271]

You do realize that Dom had back-to-back shutouts, against our arch-nemesis in elimination games right? And that he set a then-NHL record for playoff shutouts?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Joseph played a lot better than anyone gave him credit for, but you continually try to minimize what Hasek has done here--particularly in 2002--and you're flat out wrong. We were down 3-2, going on the road into a hostile environment, he didn't get a lot of goal support, but he put up the brick wall. And to follow it up, posted another shutout the next game.

I've mentioned this before...but there was exactly one time in games 6 and seven in that series when the AVs actually managed to break through the Wings defense and get the kind of scoring chance that is better than average. The result of the play? Chris Drury tipped the puck through Hasek's five hole, and off the inside of the right post. That was the only play in the two games that wasn't of the 'NHL goalies should make the save' variety...and he didn't. Oh, and IRC he was third star in one game and not selected as a star in the other...hardly a 'Dom rescued us' type of performance. He was third star twice and not selected four times in his six shutouts, so please don't act like he had no help from the defense because that's a flat lie.

Joseph posted better numbers than Hasek, and he did it when the team in front was playing like crap. Hasek had the team firing on all cylinders and posted worse numbers than CuJo. So as I said..CuJo's INDIVIDUAL performance in 2004 was better than any of Hasek's.

Maybe. San Jose was the team that I really didn't want to see in the playoffs and there were a lot of people who didn't think we'd win that series. But the Wings surprised me, and Hasek was part of the reason for that.

Because they are talented, fast, and physical. The Wings beat the Sharks because they played a much grittier game than people expected. Hasek didn't will an undeserving Wings team to the WCF. The WHOLE TEAM got them to the WCF.

Bingo. Personally, I'd lean more toward 60-40 Hasek, but the point is good. I've got no problem with seeing more Oz than normally while he's riding this hot streak. I don't expect it to last forever, but it's nice that he's playing well. But Hasek has the track record, he's played better in the recent past, and he deserves EVERY opportunity to play out of this little slump.

So you want to go with the guy who hasn't won a playoff series in this millennium and who completely bombed out the last time he played for this team in the playoffs. Got it.

Osgood was the Wings' best player in the 2001 playoffs. If you want a bomb from that series, he was wearing #20.

Hasek's GAA was below 2 and his save percentage was well over 92% in the playoffs last year. The elimination game was bad, but apart from that, I don't really know what you were expecting him to do. I mean, he only went 9 straight games without giving up more than 2 goals, and gave up 3 goals total once we were down 2 games to 1 against the Sharks. And he gave up 2 goals total once Calgary tied that series at 2.

Again (and this isn't directed at Offsides or Eva specifically), he's lost 3 games in regulation, people. 2 of those were against playoff teams. I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you that he's not at the top of his game, but he's started nine games. Nine. And he's only had 2 games where he gave up a "bad" total of goals--and even in those (last night and against Anaheim) he didn't get a lot of help. He's going to be FINE.

As I said before...Hasek has never started this slow; the concern is that it is more than just a slow start. Some people are overreacting as to how bad he is playing...but he is not playing well.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Funny though, every year we've sucked in the playoffs we DON'T SCORE!!!!!!!! All our goalies could let in one goal on 74 shots/game and we could lose given the way we scored in those years. Babcock got the skaters going and playing a tougher, grittier game than they have since they've been successful in the playoffs. That was the difference. I don't say this to knock Hasek so much as to state that your point (or lack thereof...) is just completely irrelevant when you look at the big picture.

Exactly.

To claim that somehow Hasek = long playoff run is b.s.

Cujo had a .939 sv % in '04 over 9 games. Detroit just could not score.

For comparison, Hasek sv % last year was .923, which is still very good. And in 02, it was .920.

Plus if you took Hasek's save percentage over the first two rounds in 02, it was lower because of the slow start against vancouver, where he gave up 16 goals in 6 games.

The difference over the years has been playoff scoring, or lack of it, that determines how far the Wings go.

In '02 the Wings and Hasek survived a slow playoff start because they were still scoring. In '04 Cujo played incredibly well, but the Wings didn't give him any leads.

Edited November 14, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[puckloo39 5,686]

Wow, far better than I've said it...

For me, I've been calling it like this since midseason last year. It just seems like things have slowly but surely continued to go downhill since then. Conversely, for Osgood, things have continued to get better and better. If Hasek gets his s*** together to play well split them til the playoffs and go with who's best down the stretch, but I'm wary.

Funny though, every year we've sucked in the playoffs we DON'T SCORE!!!!!!!! All our goalies could let in one goal on 74 shots/game and we could lose given the way we scored in those years. Babcock got the skaters going and playing a tougher, grittier game than they have since they've been successful in the playoffs. That was the difference. I don't say this to knock Hasek so much as to state that your point (or lack thereof...) is just completely irrelevant when you look at the big picture.

There is a whole lot of irrelevant stuff in this thread. I wasn't actually trying to make a point. Just saying that "logic" when applied to one goalie should be applied to all, as if that's possible. Anyone can make a case for just about anything, if they try hard enough and twist stuff around sufficiently.

[Offsides 21]

Actually I said "it was his worst game in a LONG time." Meaning, since I know all goalies have ups and downs, that this game was a MAJOR down for Hasek.

This was Hasek's worst game this year.

I wasn't trying to come against you, so much as point out that it doesn't matter what was said in the opening post so much as Hasek HAS had many bad games. Even in TC and preseason Ozzie was better.

[puckloo39 5,686]

I wasn't trying to come against you, so much as point out that it doesn't matter what was said in the opening post so much as Hasek HAS had many bad games. Even in TC and preseason Ozzie was better.

many, as in two?

Ozzie's been great.

[Offsides 21]

many, as in two?

Ozzie's been great.

Somewhere between two and infinity.

I'm sorry though I'm probably being unfair, Dom just probably looks worse because Ozzie looks so good.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Somewhere between two and infinity.

I'm sorry though I'm probably being unfair, Dom just probably looks worse because Ozzie looks so good.

I understand. All goalies have bad games. Sometimes they get reminded of them long after they cease to matter in the big picture. For goalies in particular, hockey is definitely a world of "what have you done for me lately?" - as in yesterday or ten minutes ago - unless there's a chance to dredge up something and use it as evidence of "fact."

And you know I don't mean you specifically, OS. You're cool.

Dom's had a tough start and played in some bad games, sometimes where the Wings as a team sucked and penalties abounded. I haven't counted, but Dom's seen more 5-3s and odd-man rushes this season than I think he did in half of last year.

Ozzie's been there for the team. No one in their right mind disputes that, I hope.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

17 games into the season and Dom should be gone, only from Wings fans

A couple of bad games and everyone already wants him gone. I cant wait to hear what happens if he starts winning.

The thing is, our defence just isnt very good. Lidstrom, Rafalski and Kronwall. Chelios plays much much better at the end of the year/playoffs. Lilja sucks, Lebda is meh. And to top it all off Rafalski and Kronwall have played like trash the past 2 games. We NEED another defenceman. A proven #3 or 4 defenceman. Not Quincey, I want him here too, but it'd be at the expense of Lebda.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Hasek sucks.

[puckloo39 5,686]

17 games into the season and Dom should be gone, only from Wings fans

A couple of bad games and everyone already wants him gone. I cant wait to hear what happens if he starts winning.

The thing is, our defence just isnt very good. Lidstrom, Rafalski and Kronwall. Chelios plays much much better at the end of the year/playoffs. Lilja sucks, Lebda is meh. And to top it all off Rafalski and Kronwall have played like trash the past 2 games. We NEED another defenceman. A proven #3 or 4 defenceman. Not Quincey, I want him here too, but it'd be at the expense of Lebda.

Maybe Sergei Zubov would "defect" to Detroit. I just read that the Stars fired president Jim Lites today, too (former Wings VP) Dallas is a mess right now.

I *heart* Zubov.

Lidstrom is a horse, amazing pretty much every game. But lately... well, he can't do it all.

[OsGOD 3]

I'm sorry though I'm probably being unfair, Dom just probably looks worse because Ozzie looks so good.

Touche

[Kp-Wings 3]

17 games into the season and Dom should be gone, only from Wings fans

A couple of bad games and everyone already wants him gone. I cant wait to hear what happens if he starts winning.

The thing is, our defence just isnt very good. Lidstrom, Rafalski and Kronwall. Chelios plays much much better at the end of the year/playoffs. Lilja sucks, Lebda is meh. And to top it all off Rafalski and Kronwall have played like trash the past 2 games. We NEED another defenceman. A proven #3 or 4 defenceman. Not Quincey, I want him here too, but it'd be at the expense of Lebda.

I would take Quincey over Lebda any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. The Wings have enough small defenseman. It's time they got some size and grit back there, which Quincey brings.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I would take Quincey over Lebda any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. The Wings have enough small defenseman. It's time they got some size and grit back there, which Quincey brings.

Same here. I'm just stating that it wont be Chelios that get's scratched, it'll be Lebda. (Because we really shouldnt play Lilja anymore)

[Packer487 3]

I've mentioned this before...but there was exactly one time in games 6 and seven in that series when the AVs actually managed to break through the Wings defense and get the kind of scoring chance that is better than average. The result of the play? Chris Drury tipped the puck through Hasek's five hole, and off the inside of the right post. That was the only play in the two games that wasn't of the 'NHL goalies should make the save' variety...and he didn't. Oh, and IRC he was third star in one game and not selected as a star in the other...hardly a 'Dom rescued us' type of performance. He was third star twice and not selected four times in his six shutouts, so please don't act like he had no help from the defense because that's a flat lie.

Exactly one time huh?

Hasek, who allowed goals at critical moments in the previous two games, was spectacular at times in earning his fourth shutout of the playoffs this year and 10th of his career.

He turned away a flip shot by Milan Hejduk on a power play in the second period, then sprawled out to stop Hejduk from close range a few minutes later.

Hasek also made a skate save on a hard shot by Joe Sakic during a power play in the third, and a sliding stop on Steven Reinprecht a few seconds later.

"They had their chances, but Dom came up big when he needed to,'' Detroit's Chris Chelios said

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=220529017

Hasek needed to step up and steal a monumental stakes playoff game before he had the right to pop off about the play in front of him, and that's pretty close to what he did in Game 6. He had 24 saves, but he made the big, acrobatic ones when they mattered, and he helped avoid what would have an ignominious and recrimination-triggering series loss for a team built with two goals in mind -- beating Colorado and winning the Stanley Cup.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2002/column...ry/1388647.html

"That's why Dominik is here," said Detroit's Darren McCarty, who scored one of Detroit's goals. "He has put us in a position to win a series."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/cup0...-29-col-det.htm

How did the Red Wings survive elimination? Three factors surfaced. First, Dominik Hasek was flawless, while Patrick Roy made a critical mistake.

Three Stars

1. Hasek: Tonight, he was in Dominator form.

http://images.cnnsi.com/inside_game/darren...eliot_wingsavs/

The Red Wings needed Dominik Hasek to steal a game to keep their season alive and the Dominator did just that. Though Colorado struggled offensively in the early going, Hasek answered every Avs scoring chance by making several spectacular sprawling stops.

http://images.cnnsi.com/hockey/2002/playof...29/three_stars/

But yeah, the defense basically just carried him to that Cup.

Joseph posted better numbers than Hasek, and he did it when the team in front was playing like crap. Hasek had the team firing on all cylinders and posted worse numbers than CuJo. So as I said..CuJo's INDIVIDUAL performance in 2004 was better than any of Hasek's.

I don't have that much of a problem with that statement. As I said, CuJo played a lot better than anyone ever gave him credit for. But I think you also have to point out that the offenses that we faced in 2002 were better than the offenses we faced in 2004. Vancouver led the league in goals with 254, St. Louis was right around the top 10 (227), and the Avs were further down (212 goals) but their best player missed the entire year and was back for the playoffs, so I think it's pretty reasonable to move them on up as well.

In 2004, Calgary was the #19 offense and Nashville was 12th.

Because they are talented, fast, and physical. The Wings beat the Sharks because they played a much grittier game than people expected. Hasek didn't will an undeserving Wings team to the WCF. The WHOLE TEAM got them to the WCF.

I never said otherwise. All I said was Hasek was a part of the reason they advanced. But holding the #6 or 7 offense in the league to 9 goals in 6 games is pretty damn impressive. Particularly considering he gave up 3 goals in 3 games once we got down 2-1, including 28 saves in (guess what?!) another shutout on the road, in an elimination game, which no doubt could've been done by any goaltender with a pulse.

Osgood was the Wings' best player in the 2001 playoffs. If you want a bomb from that series, he was wearing #20.

Yeah, he was good enough that Jeremy Roenick wouldn't sign here the next season because he didn't think we had a goalie.

Oh and Lapointe does suck.

As I said before...Hasek has never started this slow; the concern is that it is more than just a slow start. Some people are overreacting as to how bad he is playing...but he is not playing well.

True, his numbers are worse than they've ever been in October. I just think it's silly for SO many people to proclaim this more than a slow start and simply a case of him losing it after he's lost 3 games in regulation, 2 to playoff teams. He's had nine starts, and he missed a couple of weeks. I'd be a lot more inclined to listen to this argument if it was January or February.

Like I said, he hasn't been great, but he's only had 2 truly "Bad" games in terms of the goals allowed, and he still would have us on pace for a 100 point season. It's not like he's going Dan Cloutier on us or anything. He's not submarining the season. And with our position in the division and conference, we're more than able to let him work through this without it hurting our playoff chances one iota.

There are plenty of other things to worry about on this team. Like who is going to score if the top line cools off, or who is going to be our 2nd pairing since Lilja and Kronwall both blow.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Packer487

[Offsides 21]

Yeah, he was good enough that Jeremy Roenick wouldn't sign here the next season because he didn't think we had a goalie.

Oh...I'm sorry...but why do we care what Jeremy Roenick thinks about things? We could get he, Brett Hull, and Sean Avery together and have a roundtable discussion that could be pretty fun though.

PS. JR made a very wrong decision in the long run

Edited November 15, 2007 by Offsides

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Oh...I'm sorry...but why do we care what Jeremy Roenick thinks about things? We could get he, Brett Hull, and Sean Avery together and have a roundtable discussion that could be pretty fun though.

PS. JR made a very wrong decision in the long run

He did, but how would he have known that the Wings were gonna get Dom when he rejected the Wings offer?

Edited November 15, 2007 by Detroit # 1 Fan

[Packer487 3]

Oh...I'm sorry...but why do we care what Jeremy Roenick thinks about things? We could get he, Brett Hull, and Sean Avery together and have a roundtable discussion that could be pretty fun though.

PS. JR made a very wrong decision in the long run

We don't, but it's pretty telling to me that a big-name free agent, who the Wings offered a ton of money to, turned them down because he was concerned about their goaltending.

I just think it's funny how a guy can post a whopping .905, lose four straight games to a team who hadn't won a playoff game in ages, give up a number of weak goals in the process and "He's Detroit's best player" but Hasek can post 6 shutouts in the playoffs, shut out our biggest rival in back-to-back elimination games, and he was just along for the ride. Cracks me up.

[tony 3]

OZZIE OZZIE OZZIE OI OI OI

[Offsides 21]

We don't, but it's pretty telling to me that a big-name free agent, who the Wings offered a ton of money to, turned them down because he was concerned about their goaltending.

I just think it's funny how a guy can post a whopping .905, lose four straight games to a team who hadn't won a playoff game in ages, give up a number of weak goals in the process and "He's Detroit's best player" but Hasek can post 6 shutouts in the playoffs, shut out our biggest rival in back-to-back elimination games, and he was just along for the ride. Cracks me up.

Didn't he go to Philly

Jeremy Roenick gives me lots of LOLZ...and he can dance too

[OsGOD 3]

We don't, but it's pretty telling to me that a big-name free agent, who the Wings offered a ton of money to, turned them down because he was concerned about their goaltending.

I just think it's funny how a guy can post a whopping .905, lose four straight games to a team who hadn't won a playoff game in ages, give up a number of weak goals in the process and "He's Detroit's best player" but Hasek can post 6 shutouts in the playoffs, shut out our biggest rival in back-to-back elimination games, and he was just along for the ride. Cracks me up.

Umm i LOVE Roenick ... I mean i am by far his biggest fan... but come on... Roenick has not been the "big-Name" in a long long long time... now if you meant "Big-Mouth" free agent at the time he spoke... then we are talking about the same Roenick

you know what cracks me up? 86.9 Save % while your backup with the same amount of games has a 93.1% save percentage...

IDK somehwere in the Minors a goalie is saying 86.9??? I could be in the big leagues.

[Packer487 3]

Umm i LOVE Roenick ... I mean i am by far his biggest fan... but come on... Roenick has not been the "big-Name" in a long long long time... now if you meant "Big-Mouth" free agent at the time he spoke... then we are talking about the same Roenick

He was coming off 3 straight 70+ point seasons and back to back 30 goal seasons.

you know what cracks me up? 86.9 Save % while your backup with the same amount of games has a 93.1% save percentage...

Yup. Be sure and let me know if that continues. It's been 9 games. We might as well go ahead and put Tim Thomas's name on the Vezina for the next 6 years.

[OsGOD 3]

He was coming off 3 straight 70+ point seasons and back to back 30 goal seasons.

Yup. Be sure and let me know if that continues. It's been 9 games. We might as well go ahead and put Tim Thomas's name on the Vezina for the next 6 years.

I will give you that... but roenick choose PHILLY... lol bad form Jeremy... Bad Form.

Don't worry i will be sure to let you know know how it turns out... My fantasy team depends on a healthy stellar Hasek... the exact opposite thing it has received so far.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Do people seriously think Hasek is an iron man or something? The guy is 42 and hasnt exactly been healthy over his career. It'd be one thing if he were 35 and people were saying hes done. Then there might be case for overreaction. But the fact that remains that it is completely reasonable, and dare i say logical, to assume that Dom is simply running out of gas. Over the hill. Overstayed his welcome. Etc. Etc.

And itd also be another thing to suggest Dom isnt what he used to be after 1 poor start. But lets face it. Going 4-11 is rock bottom after a string of rather poor and/or at the very least below average starts Dom has given us so far this year.