Do we need a tougher guy?

[Opie 308]

First off to answer the Thread

No, this team does not need a legit Heavyweight, Downey is filling the enforcer role very well, and doesn't hurt the team. What this team should look at getting is either a legit top 6 winger, or 2 players for depth, a 4-6 d-man and a 4-9 winger.

Getting a heavy like Ivannas would be over kill imo. He seems to be more of a thug, than and enforcer. He seems to be one of the guys that you think I need an enforcer on the ice if we are playing these guys. That could be a positive, but I see it as a negative, I like others have said do not want this to turn into the flyers.

Plus with the record the way it is, the lack of an injury caused by thuggery, the fact that Downey got a point last night, and the fact that this team seems to have real good chemistry I really see no need to go get a big time fighter.

If this team goes after a legit heavyweight fighter, Downey will no longer get minutes, so a combination of Downey and Heavy on a line is pretty much out of the question.

Downey is currently logging about 4.5 minutes a game, those minutes would go to the Heavy that comes in.

Logic says if you are bringing in some one to crack skulls and police the ice that out ranks Downey in the fight category he is going to take over Downey's role.

I was not the biggest Downey supporter (I believe the correct term there is I was Anti-Downey) but he is filling the role admirably without being a detriment to this team (my biggest worry preseason). He has stepped up when needed, and shown that if you screw with one of his guys he will get you back, even if he is not on the ice that game.

So I see no need to go after another heavy, now before any of you yell and scream about how I just want a bunch of "Fairies" on the ice, I actually want a winner on the ice. This whole "Pro-fighter" vs. "Anti Fighter" thing is getting out of hand.

Because someone posts that they think Ivannas is a thug who provides nothing better than a Tootoo, that doesn't mean they want Fairies on the ice.

The whole "Pro-Figther" crowd gets a little defensive when ever someone says they do not want another or a certain fighter. People are allowed to have opinions, and because they don't want another fighter doesn't mean that they want it to be Ballet on ice.

Maybe just maybe, they don't like Sammy and want a replacement for him first, or they think that a top 6 sniper is more important. However, more often than not when they post that they don't want the fighter, a "Pro-fighter" yells and screams about how much of a weak team this is and how they will get crushed in the post season. Last year they didn't lose because they got beat up. ANA played the same style of game as CGY and SJS, the difference 1. M. Schneider being healthy, 2. The PP sucked ass in the ANA series 3. ANA beat the wings with timely scoring that deflated the wings 4. Bad turnovers led to the untimely goal scoring.

And if the Wings win the cup, Downey will deserve some credit for helping keeping people healthy (I admit it), however he will see exactly 0 minutes in the post season unless there is an injury or the team starts off like they did in 02 (0-2 against the nucks).

[arcticpicasso 0]

First off to answer the Thread

No, this team does not need a legit Heavyweight, Downey is filling the enforcer role very well, and doesn't hurt the team.

Not sure I agree. I've been intrigued by Downey's role (aside from the enforcer) and have watched his play when he doesn't have the puck. He is constantly falling down, missing pucks and wasting a great deal of energy. And he did hurt the team last night by failing to clear the puck from the zone which resulted in the goal on Osgood. I'm certainly not saying that he was alone in the failure to move the puck, and the wings have been struggling with getting the puck out their zone lately. But he does seem to be the weakest link on the ice, just watch the next game and you'll see what I'm talking about. At least McCarty made smart controlled plays and put the puck in the net.

Edited January 3, 2008 by arcticpicasso

[irishtemper14+25 11]

Not sure I agree. I've been intrigued by Downey's role (aside from the enforcer) and have watched his play when he doesn't have the puck. He is constantly falling down, missing pucks and wasting a great deal of energy. And he did hurt the team last night by failing to clear the puck from the zone which resulted in the goal on Osgood. I'm certainly not saying that he was alone in the failure to move the puck, and the wings have been struggling with getting the puck out their zone lately. But he does seem to be the weakest link on the ice, just watch the next game and you'll see what I'm talking about. At least McCarty made smart controlled plays and put the puck in the net.

i think his body was still in shock from that assist, that one accurate pass took it all out of him for the game

and combined, our two "enforcers" got a gordie howe hatrick

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Not sure I agree. I've been intrigued by Downey's role (aside from the enforcer) and have watched his play when he doesn't have the puck. He is constantly falling down, missing pucks and wasting a great deal of energy. And he did hurt the team last night by failing to clear the puck from the zone which resulted in the goal on Osgood. I'm certainly not saying that he was alone in the failure to move the puck, and the wings have been struggling with getting the puck out their zone lately. But he does seem to be the weakest link on the ice, just watch the next game and you'll see what I'm talking about. At least McCarty made smart controlled plays and put the puck in the net.

Someone will always be the weakest link on the ice. I would rather it be a role guy than a supposed scorer. At least Downey when he doesn't have the puck is making the most of the time he has, as opposed to a star scorer who lost his juice and that we have too much depending on him.

[Opie 308]

At least McCarty made smart controlled plays and put the puck in the net.

Please don't misunderstand what I meant, if I in anyway was comparing Downey to D-Mac in that statement it was very unintentional. I am one of the Anti-Downey crowd, I am just eating a little crow when I talk about how he has played. I would love him if he were anything like D-mac.

I would love to have an enforcer, a legit light heavy weight that had the ability to score, Downey is not that, he is just playing his role well and I think he should keep it. Unless of course the next Shanny of his prime is available of course.

[Yemack 1]

This 2007-8 version of Wings are a team that can muck it out if needs to. I think we've gotten some lessons out of last years playoff.

Even though Downey isn't a great fighter I think he is filling his role nicely. I think he's actually overacheiving our expectation a bit.

I don't think we should go after true heavy weight who can't do anything else. However I think someone like Brad Winchester could be a cheap good addition.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I wouldn't mind having a guy like McGrattan here, especially since I hear that Ottawa is shopping him around. Yes, I know he's not going to score in the playoffs, but I seriously doubt that his offensive production would be much worse than Kopecky, Drake, Ellis, or even Downey. Those of you who want an enforcer that can also contribute offensively need to get real. There aren't such guys around.

[Swede40 0]

Why even bother trading for a tough guy when come playoff time he'll be in the pressbox.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I wouldn't mind having a guy like McGrattan here, especially since I hear that Ottawa is shopping him around. Yes, I know he's not going to score in the playoffs, but I seriously doubt that his offensive production would be much worse than Kopecky, Drake, Ellis, or even Downey. Those of you who want an enforcer that can also contribute offensively need to get real. There aren't such guys around.

Hehe, when you put it that way, there's always room for improvement.

I would love McGratten on this team, but knowing Holland, that'll never happen in a million years. I really don't see him hurting this team, because unless he get's tagged with an instigator penalty every fight, he's not going to put us shorthanded. Plus, you can't use the excuse that the Wings wouldn't be able to role 4 lines every shift, because they don't do that now anyways. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are being doubleshifted almost all the time. The 4th line, usually consisting of Downey and the AHL callups, is only out for 2-3 shifts a period. That is not exactly "rolling the lines" all the way through, if you ask me.

When you look at the offensive production from other players this season, such as Kopecky and Ellis, you can't say guys like that are doing anything special. Kopecky, whom I've never liked at all, has played somewhat better lately, but he's still awkward and get's knocked over even by a strong breeze. And, of course, he's still not using his size very often, which frustrates me to no end. Ellis is even worse, as he does absolutuley nothing out there at all, except skate around in circles (which oddly seems to impress people, because it comes off as "working hard"). Kopecky has some potential, so let him stick around for now, but Ellis really does nothing at all, and it really irritates me when he's in the lineup over Downey.

McGratten doesn't need to play in the playoffs. He can sit the bench, like he did with Ottawa. But, I really see no harm in keeping him around during the regular season. He's a charecter guy, and one hell of a good fighter, and I guarantee even the most anti-fighting crowd around here will take a liking to him.

That's just my opinion of it. I don't think it'll happen, but anything is a possibility.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Kp-Wings

[HenryMalredo 2]

Why even bother trading for a tough guy when come playoff time he'll be in the pressbox.

amen to that!

[Opie 308]

I wouldn't mind having a guy like McGrattan here, especially since I hear that Ottawa is shopping him around. Yes, I know he's not going to score in the playoffs, but I seriously doubt that his offensive production would be much worse than Kopecky, Drake, Ellis, or even Downey. Those of you who want an enforcer that can also contribute offensively need to get real. There aren't such guys around.

So Lucic, with 3g 5a 8pts isn't helping out offensively, this kid is young and can scrap, yet he has offense at a young age.

Sidenote: I love watching this kid play, if Bergeroen can be himself again, and you add Kessel, Lucic, Rask, Savard, they have the makings of a good young core. I know Savard is not as young as the others.

Either way I don't want an enforcer per say, because most enforcers are like Ivannas, Laroque, etc.., I want some one willing to fight and that can get 8-12 goals, 12-15 assists, and be some where near the + side of +/-. which is what Lucic is rounding into. So I guess those guys are still around, I agree they are few and far between though. Funny though whenever I watch Junior or AHL hockey I see a lot of guys willing to scrap, then you see them in the NHL and they won't swing. Maybe it is fear of the big boys, who knows.

What I don't want is a goon, some one who sole responsibility on this team is to fight. That was why I was against Downey, still not sold on him but the worst thing he has done so far is cost Ozzie a shut out. He didn't lose the game by taking dumb penalties or making a ton of turnovers.

And I agree with Swede 40, why pick up a player half way through the season if in 40 games he is going to be a black ace!

You are going to have to give something up to get a guy who may have 4-6 fights in 40 games and then sit the pine, meanwhile the player who will replace him in the playoffs will be sitting in the press box the rest of the season not getting chemistry with his future linemates.

A deadline deal should be made to improve this team in the post seson. Unless the wings take a terrible slide, they are all ready in the post season, why work to improve the regular season roster when it will only hurt the post season roster.

[Kp-Wings 3]

And I agree with Swede 40, why pick up a player half way through the season if in 40 games he is going to be a black ace!

You are going to have to give something up to get a guy who may have 4-6 fights in 40 games and then sit the pine, meanwhile the player who will replace him in the playoffs will be sitting in the press box the rest of the season not getting chemistry with his future linemates.

How much do you honestly think a tough guy will cost? Heck, the Wings got Larry Murphy from Toronto for "future considerations" which basically amounted to nothing. It's not like going after a tough guy is going to cost the Wings good prospects and high draft picks.

Tough guys with skill are few and far between in the NHL anymore. Players like Probert in his prime don't exist in today's game. The only two I can think of that even come close to that is Lucic in Boston, and Daniel Carcillo in Phoenix. Neither of their respective teams are going to let them get away, so it's not even worth discussing trying to get them (though it would be great to have a player as well rounded as those two).

As long as Downey and Drake continue to do their job, I'm fine with what the Wings have. But I'd still like to have a heavyweight on the team, either way.

[Kp-Wings 3]

double post

Edited January 3, 2008 by Kp-Wings

[Lou_Siffer 1]

So Lucic, with 3g 5a 8pts isn't helping out offensively, this kid is young and can scrap, yet he has offense at a young age.

Sidenote: I love watching this kid play, if Bergeroen can be himself again, and you add Kessel, Lucic, Rask, Savard, they have the makings of a good young core. I know Savard is not as young as the others.

Either way I don't want an enforcer per say, because most enforcers are like Ivannas, Laroque, etc.., I want some one willing to fight and that can get 8-12 goals, 12-15 assists, and be some where near the + side of +/-. which is what Lucic is rounding into. So I guess those guys are still around, I agree they are few and far between though. Funny though whenever I watch Junior or AHL hockey I see a lot of guys willing to scrap, then you see them in the NHL and they won't swing. Maybe it is fear of the big boys, who knows.

If you want someone who does that, then you better send a memo to Holland and tell him to draft them. Enforcers who score points i.e. Chris Neil, become invaluable to that club and simply will not get moved. You have to produce these guys from your system or you simply wont get them. Since we never draft these rugged type players like Lucic and instead have a tendency of drafting small unphysical guys, what we're left with are enforcers of the unskilled variety.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Theres only a couple heavys worth giving something of value for IMO. Mcgrattan, Laraque and the Albino Rhino Wade Belak. Other then that, Downey and Drake is good for me.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

It appears to me that there aren't as many of these kind of players out there (when you compare todays game to what we had seen in the 70's/80's)...Wouldn't it be great to find a few Gallant/Tocchet/Graves types via the draft within the next few years?

There are a couple in the NHL now (Boll, Lucic, Carcillo) and a couple on the way (B. Sutter, Gillies, Van Riemsdyk, Legien). I'd love to have any one of these guys, also Gillies is gonna be a great player and I cant wait till he makes the Wilds roster. Fedoruk-Gillies-Boogaard will be a force.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Detroit # 1 Fan

[Skiing - Puck 0]

I would not go after any of the established NHL enforcers, rather I would seach some of the minor leagues such as the AHL. Two guys that stick out to me are Steve MacIntyre of the Providence Bruins and Jon Mirasty of the Syracuse Crunch.

Here are some of their bouts

[Hiei 192]

We Have Lilja. All other Tough Guys kneel before him.

Put Lilja/Chelios, then Downey-The Drake-Maltby out there.....the f***emup Line.

[2probert4 8]

Why even bother trading for a tough guy when come playoff time he'll be in the pressbox.

Minnesota used their tough guy in a good role during the series last year vs Analheim, Boogaard was sent out against Pronger to give him a taste of his own medicine, which Pronger doesn't like too much apparently. I thought it was a good strategy even though the Wild lost to the Dorks.

[skacore 2]

I would not go after any of the established NHL enforcers, rather I would seach some of the minor leagues such as the AHL. Two guys that stick out to me are Steve MacIntyre of the Providence Bruins and Jon Mirasty of the Syracuse Crunch.

Here are some of their bouts

Mirasty is about as bonehead as they come, I love him but he can't play hockey at all, no way he ever cracks Detroit's line up. He isn't even the greatest fighter, just really, really entertaining

[skacore 2]

Minnesota used their tough guy in a good role during the series last year vs Analheim, Boogaard was sent out against Pronger to give him a taste of his own medicine, which Pronger doesn't like too much apparently. I thought it was a good strategy even though the Wild lost to the Dorks.

Yeah Boogaard was the Wild's MVP in game 4 I think it was, when Wild actually won. I think it was the game or the game after Brad May's suckerpunch on Kim Johnsson and the fans were chanting "BOOGAARD, BOOGAARD" and then he was sent on the ice and no Duck wanted anything to do with him... I'm not sure Parros was in the line up that game

[redwingfan19 293]

i don't think we need another tough guy, Downey fills the role quite well, but I would like this team to get a bit bigger and meaner, thats for sure. A legit top 4 stay at home nasty guy like blake would be nice. We don't need a team full of fighters we need to get rid of people like sammy and lilja who have size but don't use it at all or in lilja's case enough. I just want guys who can take care of themselves not guys like Franzen who are human punching bags. I mean hit the guy back!!! But Kenny and CO made a good start by drafting some NA players last year. It's a start I have nothing against euros its good to have the skill those guys do, but this team is over flowing with skill, there needs to be balance. I want to have guys on this team that will go out and hurt the other teams star players and goon it up, not the other way around...

[Grittzkey 1]

I should be a Flyers fan, I love me some GOONS@@@

[e_mcgrath88 0]

Yeah Boogaard was the Wild's MVP in game 4 I think it was, when Wild actually won. I think it was the game or the game after Brad May's suckerpunch on Kim Johnsson and the fans were chanting "BOOGAARD, BOOGAARD" and then he was sent on the ice and no Duck wanted anything to do with him... I'm not sure Parros was in the line up that game

i remember that.. it was a beautiful moment..

[Opie 308]

And it is a good thing that they played Boogard because had they not played him they wouldn't have won the seri...

ohhh nevermind my bad!