169 replies to this topic

[Dabura]

Is 1.9 - or whatever it is - an overpayment? Yes. BUT, Tootoo gives us something we don't normally have (or, we've grown used to not having). And that something is, I think, reasonably important. And it may become even more important in the playoffs, assuming we make it that far. (We will.)

 

This has been Rationalizing With Dabura. I'm here all week. (Tip your waitress.)

[irishock]

1.9 is no overpayment when Sammy's getting 3 and a NTC.

[newfy]

Wow.  So much to take in there.  If you really think Tootoo is the "hardest hitting forward in the league", or "one of the top middleweight" fighters, I need you to take an elementary physics class and then maybe we can talk.  I suppose you also think that Cal Clutterbuck is an "elite power forward" because he leads the league in "hits" every year.  

 

A "hit" is supposed to be scored as initiating physical contact that dislodges the puck from the puck carrier.  Guys like Tootoo and Clutterbuck throw themselves around and look good on TV to fans raised on "Slap Shot", but running guys behind the play is gratuitous and really pretty irrelevant to the scoreboard.  Yes, it makes the fans in the arena go "ooh" and "ahh", the same way people gasp when a runaway car drives through a farmer's market. 

 

Tootoo had 6 goals in 77 games last year and was a HEALTHY SCRATCH in the Playoffs.  Prior to last season, he never had more than TWELVE assists in an NHL season.  Go look at the list of guys that had more goals than him from the 2011-12, and that $1.9 million AAC starts to make you feel sick a little.  We didn't need THIS guy to have a tough hockey team.  Pre-staged fights by a guy who was brought in to be a circus act to improve team morale, and he isn't even in the right "weight class" to fight anyone of significance.

 

I can't argue with people about "my hockey knowledge" when the person telling me I'm an idiot would rather watch fighting and general douchebaggery than the actual sport of hockey.

Give me a list of the hardest hitting forwards in the league in your opinion. I disagree that Tootoo only finishes big hits behind the play, hes a consistent physical player on every shift hes out there but he also has the big hit potential which can mentally rattle a team by making them take penalties or have their defense nervous back there. I dont think Clutterbucks an elite power forward but hes one of the better hitting forwards in the league for sure.

 

You actually dont think a big hit can spark a teams momentum or have an effect on the other team?

 

Now give me a list of your top middleweight fighters. Tootoo is definitely top 5 in the NHL, arguably the best. If youre so sure then tell me who you think are way better... I'm sure your physics classes talked a lot about this so youll have an awesome list, maybe you'll get a stickerr for it.

 

Tootoo played 3 games against Detroit last year but he wasnt really needed because the team had enough toughness to beat Detroit and didnt have trust from Trotz after all he went through in Nashville. The last 3 or so years hes been on pace for about 30 points and last year he passed that number. Thats more than any player in the wings bottom 6 from last season while providing a physical edge and is a very good fighter.

 

So now if you dont want people questioning your hockey knowledge post your top 10 hitters in the NHL (hardest or best by your definition, either one) and lets see your top middleweight fighters. Oh and if you think Tootoo is just a guy fans raised on slap shot like than I guess Howard and Bert are big Slapshot fans, the effect of the crowd and momentum is a big dea in sports

http://www.mlive.com...otoo_fires.html

[beachwing]

Toots is an asset for sure and needs to be on the ice a lot more. His energy is infectious and he creates opps every shift!

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

I agree. Toots should get more ice time.

[StormJH1]

Give me a list of the hardest hitting forwards in the league in your opinion. I disagree that Tootoo only finishes big hits behind the play, hes a consistent physical player on every shift hes out there but he also has the big hit potential which can mentally rattle a team by making them take penalties or have their defense nervous back there. I dont think Clutterbucks an elite power forward but hes one of the better hitting forwards in the league for sure.

 

You actually dont think a big hit can spark a teams momentum or have an effect on the other team?

 

Now give me a list of your top middleweight fighters. Tootoo is definitely top 5 in the NHL, arguably the best. If youre so sure then tell me who you think are way better... I'm sure your physics classes talked a lot about this so youll have an awesome list, maybe you'll get a stickerr for it.

 

Tootoo played 3 games against Detroit last year but he wasnt really needed because the team had enough toughness to beat Detroit and didnt have trust from Trotz after all he went through in Nashville. The last 3 or so years hes been on pace for about 30 points and last year he passed that number. Thats more than any player in the wings bottom 6 from last season while providing a physical edge and is a very good fighter.

 

So now if you dont want people questioning your hockey knowledge post your top 10 hitters in the NHL (hardest or best by your definition, either one) and lets see your top middleweight fighters. Oh and if you think Tootoo is just a guy fans raised on slap shot like than I guess Howard and Bert are big Slapshot fans, the effect of the crowd and momentum is a big dea in sports

http://www.mlive.com...otoo_fires.html

I'm not going to keep going point-for-point with you on an argument that is subjective and cannot be won.  Clutterbuck is as good as Tootoo (probably better), and that Wild team has been borderline terrible for his entire career.  Of course momentum matters, and yes, a well-time hit, or a non-scripted fight can be a source of momentum.  But they are not the ONLY sources of momentum.  Some of the worst teams in hockey employ the best hitters and leaders in PIM/fighting majors, and it's been that way for years.  

 

The fighting thing is a side show.  You saw it again with Ken and Mickey last night.  Ken (who I like as an announcer) saw Nik Kronwall get boarded and stagger off the ice with what looked like a possible concussion (turned out later he was okay, and Howard is apparently the one that is hurt).  Ken seemed almost borderline excited that now Tootoo would have a reason to fight Rich Clune!  As if a 45-second face smashing contest is a good trade-off for losing your best defenseman for a few games or weeks.

If you don't agree with me on the fighting thing, you probably won't agree with me on Tootoo either.  But it's clear that:

 

(a) The presence of Tootoo didn't prevent Kronwall from being cheap-shotted in the first place, nor did it prevent Setoguchi from busting open Quincey's chin on Sunday (Setoguchi doesn't fight anyway), nor did Brad May (an actual heavyweight) prevent the rash of cheapshots and injuries that besieged the Wings after he was acquired in 2010.

 

(b) You can't spark anything from the bench, which is where Tootoo is for 52 out of 60 minutes every game

 

© Fighting as a reactive, symbolic gesture after somebody has already cheap-shotted your team feels good, but really doesn't impact short-term or long-term success of the team.

 

Tootoo played well yesterday, I'll give him that.  The goal was lucky, but he had a great opportunity earlier where Rinne robbed him.  He is on this team, and the Wings might as well play him if they're paying him.  But he is a defensive liability, and I don't trust him long-term to avoid dumb penalties, which is what happened at the end of his Nashville run.  He's also blocking the roster spot of a Griffins player that could potentially become a role player or Top 6 forward, which we're going to need a lot of in a big hurry with Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammy, etc. aging fast.

[Doc Holliday]

How can anyone be unhappy with the way Toots has played so far?

 

He's been spectacular, in my opinion. Doing everything we expected of him and a little more.

[uk_redwing]

I'm not going to keep going point-for-point with you on an argument that is subjective and cannot be won.  Clutterbuck is as good as Tootoo (probably better), and that Wild team has been borderline terrible for his entire career.  Of course momentum matters, and yes, a well-time hit, or a non-scripted fight can be a source of momentum.  But they are not the ONLY sources of momentum.  Some of the worst teams in hockey employ the best hitters and leaders in PIM/fighting majors, and it's been that way for years.  

 

The fighting thing is a side show.  You saw it again with Ken and Mickey last night.  Ken (who I like as an announcer) saw Nik Kronwall get boarded and stagger off the ice with what looked like a possible concussion (turned out later he was okay, and Howard is apparently the one that is hurt).  Ken seemed almost borderline excited that now Tootoo would have a reason to fight Rich Clune!  As if a 45-second face smashing contest is a good trade-off for losing your best defenseman for a few games or weeks.

If you don't agree with me on the fighting thing, you probably won't agree with me on Tootoo either.  But it's clear that:

 

(a) The presence of Tootoo didn't prevent Kronwall from being cheap-shotted in the first place, nor did it prevent Setoguchi from busting open Quincey's chin on Sunday (Setoguchi doesn't fight anyway), nor did Brad May (an actual heavyweight) prevent the rash of cheapshots and injuries that besieged the Wings after he was acquired in 2010.

 

(b) You can't spark anything from the bench, which is where Tootoo is for 52 out of 60 minutes every game

 

© Fighting as a reactive, symbolic gesture after somebody has already cheap-shotted your team feels good, but really doesn't impact short-term or long-term success of the team.

 

Tootoo played well yesterday, I'll give him that.  The goal was lucky, but he had a great opportunity earlier where Rinne robbed him.  He is on this team, and the Wings might as well play him if they're paying him.  But he is a defensive liability, and I don't trust him long-term to avoid dumb penalties, which is what happened at the end of his Nashville run.  He's also blocking the roster spot of a Griffins player that could potentially become a role player or Top 6 forward, which we're going to need a lot of in a big hurry with Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammy, etc. aging fast.

 

So much hate without any logic. What a quality read. Really don't know how to reply to that so I'll just list some bullet points.

 

1) Tootoo is one of the best middleweight fighters in the league without a doubt. He's also one of the hardest hitters in the league, without a doubt. Anyone who knows their stuff on this subject, which judging by your post isn't you, will back this up. Tootoo was almost unanimously voted the best fighter under 6 foot recently on hockeyfights.com

 

2) You say he's a defensive liability yet he has the 8th highest +/- on the team and the most of anyone on the bottom 2 lines.

 

3) He has one minor penalty in 16 games. Your argument of dumb penalties is ridiculous.

 

4) You seem angry that Ken+Micky and 90% of hockey fans enjoy a good fight. Good. We do and don't care you don't.

 

5) You seem to be confusing Tootoo with an enforcer but clearly you're talking about a subject you know little about. Middleweights have not been, nor ever will be, enforcers.

 

Bored now.

[newfy]

Tootoo isnt a fourth line enforcer, hes a fourth line energy player that can swing momentum with a hit or a fight. He plays 9 minutes a night which is completely normal for a fourth liner. Its 30 seconds less than Emmerton and Eaves. Hes produced offensively just as well as any other bottom 6 player on the team while being more physical than any of them, he fills a role. I guess we'll really disagree on fighting than because as a guy who has watched teammates get cheapshotted, seeing the guy get beat down afterwards helps bring a team together. Kind of like when the 97 team cited that brawl as their defining moment.

 

As for the fighters/hitters list... I think its funny how you act like a know it all, say youll teach me some basic physics because I'm so wrong and you cant even put a list of 5 guys together. And the reason you wont is because you obviously know f all about the subject and are just spouting off about nothing. Tootoos played so well this year in his role he got some shifts with Zetterberg last night for his effort hes given every shift. So dont get in a point by point subjective argument, whats that saying? Its better to stay quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it... I think it applies here

[LeftWinger]

If anyone can justify Franzine earning his $3.9M with his lazy lackluster play...then Tootoo more than earns his $1.9M pay.  He was brought in for a reason, a role, he is filling it perfectly and giving 110% every night, night after night...

 

I hope he signs another contract after this one....

 

Let me ask all of you Tootoo doubters...do you think Kronwall is earning his contract right now? How about Quincey? Sammy? White? Cola? I think if anyone is earning his money, its Tootoo for sure!

Edited by LeftWinger, 20 February 2013 - 01:51 PM.