Who's Number shouhld Get retired? All NHL?

[jawbreaker 0]

Ozzie is top five of his era. Top 3 is a little tougher to make...but at the same time you have to consider he is going against THREE goaltenders who all have been or will be called by some as 'the greatest ever' so it's not by not being Top 3 he's a dime a dozen player.

Furthermore...the only NHL goaltender other than Sawchuk and Osgood to spent ten seasons or more in Detroit? Jim Rutherford...who was pretty terrible by comparison. Osgood has been one of the league's top goalies several times in his career AS A RED WING. I would argue Osgood has more often been among the best goalies as a Wing than Shanahan was among the best forwards or Chelios among the best defensemen. Yet those two get spoken of for retirement on here, because they were great players with great careers. Guess what? Ozzie was better than them as a Wing, and has been a Wing longer than them. If you have better quality AND more quantity, you are more deserving of jersey retirement no?

If you look at my first post in this topic, you will see that I'm against retiring Shanny, Cheli, and probably even Feds (and Feds was a lot valuable to the Wings, than Ozzie). Yes, he has spent some time with us, and probably will retire as a Wing. The point is not about TOP 3, or TOP 5. All I wanted to say is that previously retired Wings were "the greatest ever" in their position. Chris Osgood is not that good. Shanny is not that good. Cheli... well maybe, but he will be always remembered as a Hawk, so no, Feds... he was great, and the best player in the league at one time... but I would say rather no, than yes. Nick is the only one, who really deserve this.

Plus, it's seems so unreal to retire Ozzie's number, and not to do the same thing with #91. Ah....yes, he left... and it wasn't nice. But in 20 years nobody will remember why, and how he left. I would just leave them both out! But if anybody wants to retire Oz number, they should retire #91.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Osgood was the best goalie in the league in 1996. He finished second that year. Carey did beat him for the Vezina, but that was a case of voters being blinded by shutout numbers. Ozzie had better GAA and save percentage, and a better W-L record. Most big publications, including THN, named Ozzie as the league's top goaltender that year. That certainly fits my bill as the only Wings netminder 'arguably the best goalie in the league' since Crozier. No other Wings goalie has been a first team or second team all star either from 1966-1995 or from 1997-2007.

As far as much of your list...I would disagree with many on the list. Case in point: Scott Stevens or Paul Coffey? Who was better. Most people will say Stevens. Coffey owns three Norris trophies to Stevens' zero. So what does it mean? Perhaps a player who had a higher peak hasn't necessarily had a better career? I would argue that Fuhr did not deserve the Vezina in 1988--Patrick Roy did. Fuhr to me is one of the most overrated goaltenders in history. He was a GOOD goaltender on an AMAZING team. Osgood has better numbers despite having had worse teams in better divisions. And many of the guys you mentioned won their Vezinas in the 80s, like Fuhr. Had Osgood played in the 80s instead of the 90s, he is likely to win two or three Vezinas. I have said it on this topic before...the quality of goaltending in the 80s was horrendous. Any of the 30 starters in the league and several backups would have been perrenial Vezina contenders had they played in the 80s. There were maybe four or five goalies playing then who would have been capable of starting consistently in today's NHL.

So the use of ONLY Vezina awards in the 1980s to suggest that a goaltender was better than someone who didn't play until the mid 90s is a bit of a weak argument. Like arguing that Brad Park was a worse defenseman than Rob Blake. Just not true. Only one guy played his prime opposite Bobby Orr.

As for the inclusion of Luongo...if both goalies retired today I would say Osgood has had the FAR superior career. Luongo will now be facing serious questions about his clutch performance after how poorly he performed down the stretch with Vancouver fighting for a playoff spot. Osgood has been in that situation before (2002 and 2004) and played phenomenally to carry his team into the postseason.

Vernon was not better than Osgood. Richter has never come as close to the Vezina as Ozzie did in 1996, and doesn't have the career stats that Ozzie does. He also doesn't have a better playoff pedigree. Why exactly do people keep trying to say he was better?

I would argue that Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek have been better. Osgood falls into the second tier of guys with Belfour, Barrasso, Vernon, etc. and I would argue he is at or near the top of that group.

Eva, nobody who isn't a Red Wings fan thinks that Ozzie should be in the HOF. If you showed these debates to fans around the league, they'd probably laugh at it.

He's never stolen a playoff series in his career, which is what I always think of when I think of HOF goalies. Yeah, HOF goalies played with great players, but when those players struggled, those goalies could step it up and win it for their team. Ozzie has never done that.

In 1998, this team won the Cup in spite of him, and not because of him.

[eva unit zero 271]

If you look at my first post in this topic, you will see that I'm against retiring Shanny, Cheli, and probably even Feds (and Feds was a lot valuable to the Wings, than Ozzie). Yes, he has spent some time with us, and probably will retire as a Wing. The point is not about TOP 3, or TOP 5. All I wanted to say is that previously retired Wings were "the greatest ever" in their position. Chris Osgood is not that good. Shanny is not that good. Cheli... well maybe, but he will be always remembered as a Hawk, so no, Feds... he was great, and the best player in the league at one time... but I would say rather no, than yes. Nick is the only one, who really deserve this.

Plus, it's seems so unreal to retire Ozzie's number, and not to do the same thing with #91. Ah....yes, he left... and it wasn't nice. But in 20 years nobody will remember why, and how he left. I would just leave them both out! But if anybody wants to retire Oz number, they should retire #91.

Let's put this little misunderstanding to rest now, shall we?

Gordie Howe was and is the greatest ever at his position.

Terry Sawchuk was and is the greatest ever at his position.

Delvecchio never held that title.

Abel never held that title, and is IMO the fourth best at his position just among guys in this conversation.

Lindsay may have held that title at one point, but he had lost it 20 years before his jersey was retired.

So being 'the greatest ever' is obviously NOT a requirement for Wings jersey retirement.

The closest I can see your argument to being is that you have to at one point have been the best Wing ever at your position...which opens the door to about 20 more names, including Goodfellow, Kelly, Normie Smith, and many others.

There have been few players who have played for Detroit as long as Ozzie has with the kind of quality Ozzie has provided. most of that group is retired. So it's not unreasonable to suggest that Osgood could end up in the rafters after the next three years.

Fedorov, based on his play only, is probably more deserving than Osgood. But his contract disputes have had an effect on his chances...which is why I said he would likely have to return and play well for it to happen.

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, nobody who isn't a Red Wings fan thinks that Ozzie should be in the HOF. If you showed these debates to fans around the league, they'd probably laugh at it.

He's never stolen a playoff series in his career, which is what I always think of when I think of HOF goalies. Yeah, HOF goalies played with great players, but when those players struggled, those goalies could step it up and win it for their team. Ozzie has never done that.

In 1998, this team won the Cup in spite of him, and not because of him.

The 98 team was easily the worst group of skaters of the three Cup teams. The 2002 team was easily the best. So the argument that the 98 team won in spite of Osgood must then, by extension, be applied to Vernon and Hasek. Furthermore, Osgood was second in Smythe voting behind a unanimous decision for Yzerman. This means that Yzerman won the Cup in spite of the other 19 players on the team, correct? Because if the team won in spite of Osgood, and Osgood was the second most valuable player on the team, that means that there were 18 regulars who did even less to win the Cup than Ozzie did right?

And as far as great goaltenders steling wins in the playoffs...how about game 6 vs Dallas in 1998? Detroit was playing very poorly, and it was Osgood's lights out play that prevented Detroit from heading back to Dallas for a game 7.

If you're going to say 'he let in some long goals, he shouldn't be a hall of famer' then you'll have to disqualify Hasek, Roy, and Brodeur. And as there's nobody else in the past 30 years as good as those three, it means that there have been no hall-of-fame goaltenders in the NHL in my lifetime. Which is a ridiculous statement.

[thedisappearer 291]

Osgood was the best goalie in the league in 1996. He finished second that year. Carey did beat him for the Vezina, but that was a case of voters being blinded by shutout numbers. Ozzie had better GAA and save percentage, and a better W-L record.

On a vastly superior team. Sure, Ozzie had a good season. So good, in fact, that management brought in somebody else for a Cup run...

Fuhr to me is one of the most overrated goaltenders in history. He was a GOOD goaltender on an AMAZING team.

Are you talking about Fuhr or Ozzie, 'cause it's true for both.

So the use of ONLY Vezina awards in the 1980s to suggest that a goaltender was better than someone who didn't play until the mid 90s is a bit of a weak argument.

*sigh* I never said they were better. I was saying that at one point in their career (which overlapped Ozzie's) you could say they were the best in the league.

Vernon was not better than Osgood.

Someone thought so in 1997...

[vangvace 12]

In 1998, this team won the Cup in spite of him, and not because of him.

Dear god hear comes eva's 1998 was the worst cup team ever so Ozzie was the savior post. (oops took to long typing)

Shanny - not a rental, but more of a leased player. No rafter for you.

Osgood - Every argument I hear is stats and team longevity. It's never about stealing games. It's never about great saves. Possible but not probable for the rafters.

Fedorov - Statistically outstanding, but nobody likes to remember the drama and primadonna attitude he had in non-contract years. Everyone loves to focus on his stats and rationalize his contract negotiation tactics but... ownership will change before his number's retired.

Lidstrom - no brainer

[thedisappearer 291]

ownership will change before his number's retired.

Yep, and I hope that doesn't happen any decade soon.

[eva unit zero 271]

On a vastly superior team. Sure, Ozzie had a good season. So good, in fact, that management brought in somebody else for a Cup run...

Vernon was brought in after Osgood's rookie season. 1998 was the first season Osgood was given the start for the playoffs because Bowman preferred veteran goaltenders.

Are you talking about Fuhr or Ozzie, 'cause it's true for both.

If you switch Ozzie and Fuhr's teams and age, Edmonton wins all those Cups again. I don't know if Detroit wins the Cup in 98 with Fuhr instead of Ozzie.

*sigh* I never said they were better. I was saying that at one point in their career (which overlapped Ozzie's) you could say they were the best in the league.

You listed them during your 'goalies who played during Ozzie's career who were better' list. That generally implies you thought they were better. And even if the list went to 60 names...it still doesn't invalidate my original point about Osgood being the only Wings contender for 'top goalie' since crozier.

Someone thought so in 1997...

Bowman thought Vernon was the better choice in 1997. Guess what? Bowman also though Essensa would give the Wings a better shot in the playoffs than Osgood in 1994. How did that turn out?

Just because Scotty Bowman thought it, does not mean it is factual or not debatable. Not to mention...starting Vernon in 97 over Osgood is like the Senators' decision to trade for Tom Barrasso and name him starter over Patrick Lalime in 2000. They had a hot young goaltender who was thought of as the future of their franchise in net, and was only in his first couple seasons. They acquired a veteran netminder who had won the Cup 8 seasons previous, and handed him the job even though he was consistently outperformed in the regular season by the youngster. Granted, nobody will suggest that Lalime has had a better career...but he was better at the time, and the team went with the vet. Going with the proven veteran over your hot young guy happens all the time, regardless of who ends up with the better career. Especially in a tandem situation like the Wings used with Ozzie and Vernon, where one guy is early better but the other guy gets a chunk of the starts and has won a Cup. Had Yzerman won the 1997 Smythe (which he should have IMO), though, I don't think people would be so quick to say 'the team won in spite of Osgood' as they do. But I'd like to see Vernon win the Cup in 97 without Konstantinov on the blue line...

[Reds4Life 51]

Ozzie won't have his number retired. He is backup goalie, and that's what suits him the best. I like him, but he is not HOF worthy and he does not deserve to have his number retired by the Wigns.

And we all know that when he won the Cup in '98, he was average in playoffs.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Reds4Life

[DaKineMaui 8]

Just because Scotty Bowman thought it, does not mean it is factual or not debatable.

I'm sure that's what you meant.

[irishtemper14+25 11]

shanny feds wont be retired if they dont come back....konstantinov will just be unofficially retired

[jawbreaker 0]

Let's put this little misunderstanding to rest now, shall we?

Gordie Howe was and is the greatest ever at his position.

Terry Sawchuk was and is the greatest ever at his position.

Delvecchio never held that title.

Abel never held that title, and is IMO the fourth best at his position just among guys in this conversation.

Lindsay may have held that title at one point, but he had lost it 20 years before his jersey was retired.

So being 'the greatest ever' is obviously NOT a requirement for Wings jersey retirement.

The closest I can see your argument to being is that you have to at one point have been the best Wing ever at your position...which opens the door to about 20 more names, including Goodfellow, Kelly, Normie Smith, and many others.

There have been few players who have played for Detroit as long as Ozzie has with the kind of quality Ozzie has provided. most of that group is retired. So it's not unreasonable to suggest that Osgood could end up in the rafters after the next three years.

Fedorov, based on his play only, is probably more deserving than Osgood. But his contract disputes have had an effect on his chances...which is why I said he would likely have to return and play well for it to happen.

I would still like to say something. Howe, Lindsay, and Abel formed one of the best lines ever. Then came Delvecchio. They were dominating the league. Won many Cups, and Regular Seasons. So at that time they were the best in the league (not just in our team). They were absolute elite of the whole NHL.

Ozzie just doesn't not fit in those shoes. Like it, or not, but Osgood is just good starter/great backup. What kinda stats would he have on the another team? In Detroit there was basically a Hall of Fame playing in front of him: Nick, Fetisov, Murphy, Coffey, Konstantinov; plus great two-way forwards Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov, The Grind Line.

Oz would get his jersey retired with this kinda stats (wins), but in some other city.

Only #5 will be retired in the near future. Feds has some chance (5%). If Feds doesn't make it, the others will have NO chance. Dats & Z could make it, if they will keep dominating the NHL, and will bring couple of Cups home.

[Viperar 16]

hahahahahaha

[joshy207 156]

I know teams can do whatever they want, but as a fan of the game, I wouldn't want teams to retire numbers right and left, just based on longevity. That's what would happen if Linden's number was retired.

Neither do I, I like the fact that most teams use discretion in retiring numbers. But Linden was the face of that franchise for YEARS, and still is. Imagine Yzerman was still playing... he wouldn't be the Wings' best player, but he would be the most recognizable, the heart and soul.

*And no, I'm not saying Linden is/was on Yzerman's level as a player or leader.

[grsbmd 0]

Illitch actually unretired Larry Aurie's number because he did not make the hall of fame and has stated that the Red Wings won't retire any number that does not belong to a hall-of-famer, so Osgood is NOT going to have his number retired.

[HenryMalredo 2]

You listed them during your 'goalies who played during Ozzie's career who were better' list. That generally implies you thought they were better. And even if the list went to 60 names...it still doesn't invalidate my original point about Osgood being the only Wings contender for 'top goalie' since crozier.

Thats not hard to do. The Wings have had a long history of crappy goaltenders.

[Tane 17]

Heres a recap

Anaheim

Kariya No

Selanne Yes

Atlanta

Kovalchuck If he plays 5-8 more years with atl

Boston

Thornton No

Oates No

Buffalo

Hasek Yes

Calgary

Fleury If he gets his life turned around

Nieuwendyk Yes

Roberts Yes

Iginla Yes

Carolina

Brind'Amour No

Chicago

Roenick No

Chelios Yes??

Belfour No

Colorado

Sakic Yes

forsberg Yes

Foote Yes

Hejduk If he plays there 5 more years

Dallas

Modano Yes

Bellows NO

Ciccarelli No

Lehtinen If He plays 5 more years

Morrow If He plays 8 more years there

Detroit

Lidstrom Yes

Osgood Yes

Shanny no

Fedorov Yes

Konstantinov Yes

Edmonton

Lowe YEs

Ranford No

Ryan Smyth Yes

Florida

Vanbiesbrouck No

Jokinen 8 more years

LA

Blake Yes

Kurri No

Minnesota

Gaborik 8 more years

Montreal

Roy Yes

Nashville

Vokoun No

New Jersey

Brodeur Yes

MacLean Yes

NYI

Lafontaine No

NYR

gretzky Should, But won't

OTTAWA

Alfredsson Yes

Wade Redden Yes

Philadelphia

Lindros No

Desjardins Yes?

LeClair Yes

Hextall NO

Pelle Lindbergh (it's taken out of circulation) Yes

Phoenix

Teppo Nummenin Yes

Keith Tkachuck No

San Jose

Marleau NO

Pat Falloon YES!

St. Louis

Pronger Yes

Tampa Bay

Lecavalier Yes

toronto (honoured)

Gilmour Yes

Clark Yes

Sundin Yes

Vancouver

Linden Yes

Bure No

Washington

Bondra no

Kolzig Yes

That's kinda what I was lokoing for, as opposed to another REd Wings Debate.

[Heinrich 0]

Peter Bondra should definitely be in Capitals HoF together with Kolzig. Noone else belongs there more than these two guys. Bondra is Huge (!!!) part of Caps history...and the best what the team can do is to place him to the Hall of Fame.

[vangvace 12]

That's kinda what I was looking for, as opposed to another Red Wings Debate.

Shame on you for thnking lgw wouldn't turn it into a debate

Anaheim

Kariya No

Selanne Yes

Atlanta

Kovalchuck If he plays 5-8 more years with atl

Boston

Thornton No

Oates No

Buffalo

Hasek Yes

Calgary

Fleury If he gets his life turned around

Nieuwendyk Yes

Roberts Yes

Iginla Yes

Carolina

Brind'Amour No

Chicago

Roenick No

Chelios Yes??

Belfour No

Colorado

Sakic Yes

forsberg Yes

Foote Yes

Hejduk If he plays there 5 more years

Dallas

Modano Yes

Bellows NO

Ciccarelli No

Lehtinen If He plays 5 more years

Morrow If He plays 8 more years there

Detroit

Lidstrom Yes

Osgood no

Shanny no

Fedorov no

Konstantinov as close as will come

Edmonton

Lowe YEs

Ranford No

Ryan Smyth Yes

Florida

Vanbiesbrouck Yes

Jokinen Maybe

LA

Blake Yes

Kurri No

Minnesota

Gaborik if he doesn't leave

Montreal

Roy Yes

Nashville

Vokoun no because of trade

New Jersey

Brodeur Yes

MacLean Yes

NYI

Lafontaine No

NYR

gretzky no

OTTAWA

Alfredsson Yes

Wade Redden Yes

Philadelphia

Lindros maybe

Desjardins maybe

LeClair Yes

Hextall Yes

Pelle Lindbergh (it's taken out of circulation)

Phoenix

Teppo Nummenin Yes

Keith Tkachuck No

San Jose

Marleau Maybe

Pat Falloon Who?

St. Louis

Pronger Yes

Tampa Bay

Lecavalier maybe depends on if he leaves

toronto (honoured)

Gilmour Yes

Clark Yes

Sundin Yes

Vancouver

Linden Yes

Bure No

Washington

Bondra Yes

Kolzig maybe

[HomeNugget 2]

Anaheim

Kariya NO

Selanne NO

Atlanta

Kovalchuck NO

Boston

Thornton NO

Oates NO

Buffalo

Hasek YES

Calgary

Fleury YES

Nieuwendyk NO

Roberts NO

Iginla NOT YET

Carolina

Brind'Amour NO

Chicago

Roenick NO

Chelios NO

Belfour NO

Colorado

Sakic YES

forsberg NO

Foote NO

Hejduk NO

Bourque NO

Dallas

Modano YES

Bellows NO

Ciccarelli NO

Lehtinen YES

Morrow NO

Detroit

Lidstrom YES

Osgood NO

Shanny NO

Fedorov NO

Konstantinov KEEP IT OUT OF CIRCULATION

Aurie PUT IT IN THE RAFTERS

Edmonton

Lowe NO

Ranford NO

Ryan Smyth YES

Florida

Vanbiesbrouck NO

Jokinen NO

LA

Blake YES

Kurri NO

Minnesota

Gaborik NO

Montreal

Roy YES

Nashville

Vokoun NO

New Jersey

Brodeur YES

MacLean NO

NYI

Lafontaine NO

NYR

gretzky NO

OTTAWA

Alfredsson YES

Wade Redden NO

Philadelphia

Lindros NO

Desjardins NO

LeClair NO

Hextall NO

Pelle Lindbergh (it's taken out of circulation) NO

Phoenix

Teppo Nummenin NO

Keith Tkachuck NO

San Jose

Marleau NO

Pat Falloon NO

St. Louis

Pronger NO

Tampa Bay

Lecavalier NO

toronto

Gilmour

Clark

Sundin

Vancouver

Linden YES

Bure NO

Washington

Bondra YES

Kolzig YES

League Wide

Gretzky NO

Lemieux NO

Any Other Player, Past, Present or Future NO

EDIT: said no to Sakic. i meant to say yes.

Edited April 7, 2008 by HomeNugget

[RedFX 48]

I'm just gonna do this the easy way. Here are the people who AS OF NOW should have their jersey retired.

Anaheim:

Selanne

Buffalo:

Hasek (maybe)

Calgary:

Iginla

Carolina:

Brind' Amour

Colorado:

Sakic

Forsberg

Foote

Dallas:

Modano

Lehtinen

Detroit:

Lidstrom

Edmonton:

Lowe

Los Angeles:

Blake

Montreal:

Koivu (maybe)

Roy (maybe)

New Jersey:

Brodeur

Ottawa:

Alfredsson

Philadelphia:

LeClair

Lindros (maybe)

Toronto:

Sundin

Vancouver:

Linden (maybe)

Naslund (maybe)

Washington:

Kolzig

Bondra (maybe)

[Sting 11 0]

This is tough because every team has different standards and different criteria for choosing which numbers to retire. In general I believe the decision usually surpasses stats and playoff records and includes longevity as well as how much the player is loved by the front office, the city, and the fans. This is why I'd consider Linden a lock in Vancouver but Roy not so much of a lock in Montreal. It's also why I'd place Osgood well above Fedorov in the pecking order, although I wouldn't retire either number at this point.

[Guest Jeremy88]

not this crap again....

Edited April 7, 2008 by Jeremy88

[Legendary D In 03 50]

NYI: LaFontaine - okay, people have said no to him...little do any of you realize that his jersey has already been retired around two years ago at this point.

Edit: my bad, I'm an idiot - Buffalo retired his jersey...just got the two teams confused. Apologies...

Edited April 7, 2008 by Legendary D In 03

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

not this crap again....

Why do you people who are so sick of these topics even enter the thread? No one wants to here your bitching.