If we lose this series, will Holland be fired?

[ShanahanMan 473]

How can Illitch not see that the President's Trophy is as useful as passing the puck to Sammy.

stealing that for my sig.

[ShanahanMan 473]

A lot of people seem to think I'm hitting the panic button after 2 bad games. Thats not it.....I understand that the series is tied and we have a significant chance. The thing is, its not a reassuring tie. This team just hasn't seemed hungry for the cup. If we were playing like say....Calgary has these past 4 games, I'd be totally content with a tie. Calgary has played with crazy intensity throughout.....you can tell they WANT it. The Wings look like a team that is getting payed to play......thats it. This series has a very "Edmonton 05" feel to it. Mind you, I know this can change....and it will have to if we are to have any shot at this cup.

As for the GM thing, you either agree or disagree. I, as well as many others, have already made valid points so I will leave it as it is.

Edited April 17, 2008 by ShanahanMan

[wingslogo19 281]

WOW, some of you people here call yourself "true fans" and your calling this series over already.. The Wings will be just fine. Back at the Joe tomorrow, the fans behind us.. People just need to relax.. GO WINGS

[Statiklullaby87 0]

WOW, some of you people here call yourself "true fans" and your calling this series over already.. The Wings will be just fine. Back at the Joe tomorrow, the fans behind us.. People just need to relax.. GO WINGS

Preach it brother!

[calfan 0]

He should be blamed for not addressing needs that everyone could see on the first day of training camp.

We needed to get grittier and deeper in the wings position.

Holland promised that there would be changes but then changed his tune saying he'd save money for the trade deadline. But then again he did nothing to address these glaring needs.

He let certain players walk (who were intracle to getting to the Conference Finals last year) and didn't fill their holes.

In my mind, with a half empty Joe most nights and a failure to win a Cup after winning the Presidents Trophy three years in a row*, Holland should be held responsible for not getting the right peices to win it all.

It's one thing to protect some of your future players if you're on the bubble for winning the Cup - say a Minnesota or Dallas. But when you get as close as the Wings were last season, you need to take a chance and grab the last peice of the puzzle. Filpulla and Hudler could have fetched some of those peices.

Yes, Filp might have a shot in becoming an 80 point center. But when? And will Lidstrom be around then? How about Rafalski? And will all our money still be tied up in 4 guys so we'd have to trade him anyway?

Being an NHL GM means taking risks at times. Holland has a track record of never taking them. Even more so now that there's a CAP.

I'm sure everyone on these boards wouldn't think twice in dealing anyone on this roster if it meant a Cup win. Even if it meant some down years afterwards.

* I know that Buffalo technically won the PT last season. But the Wings tied them in points.

Sorry but, who should he have signed? Who was actually available that was going to make a difference. Did you ever consider that if the avg fan knows what the team needs, then likely mgmt does as well. But, whereas you can make any trade you want on NHL 08, mgmt actually has to live with a budget and GM's who don't want to trade their players and with the prospect of ensuring the team continues to be competitive for the foreseeable future.

So you wanted a grittier team with better goaltending. Gee, why didn't Holland go out at the trade deadline and acquire Iginla, Doan and Kiprusoff. Then the Wings would have the team to beat in the playoffs. Oh, wait a minute, the Flames and Yotes weren't willing to trade those guys. Maybe you could've gotten Iginla out of Calgary for Lidstrom, Homer and a couple of guys on the farm. Do you think they should have made that deal?

Hossa was traded. How do you know that the Wings weren't in the running but couldn't make the economics of the deal work. Would Hossa have fixed the "problem" in any case? I don't. Brad Richards was available. Of course he sucked after one good game. He's doing ok in the playoffs so far, but again, not sure he was the answer or was worth the economic hit. At his salary he should be leading Dallas in scoring, not tied for 4th.

Who of the 07 UFA's and RFA's that changed teams would have made a significant difference on this team right now? Drury? Didn't exactly shine in New York. Brier? They boo him in Philly on a regular basis. Maybe the Wings tried and these guys wanted the great life in NY or in the east with less travel.

So, continue to sit in your (and I don't necessarily mean you specifically Hank, you just provided the available comment) armchair and whine. Or actually step up and demonstrate who was available and why the price made sense. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you didn't make.

By the way, I'm not a big fan of the "not gritty enough" argument. Its not about stocking up on Chris Simon, Fedoruk and Derek a la the Wild. Its about going to the difficult places on the ice to score the goal and once you're there,actually having the hands to do so. I don't think the Preds are exactly knocking the Wings out of the rink.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Under Holland’s watch the Red Wings have won two Stanley Cups (1998, 2002), three Presidents’ Trophies (2002, 2004, 2006), seven Central Division titles (1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007) and four regular-season Western Conference titles (2002, 2004, 2006, 2007).

Why are people saying he's only been around since 2002?

For the people who said "we" didn't find a replacement for Big Bert, well, that is redonkulus. Bert was never healthy and he was a no show in the latter stages of the playoffs, so stop with that. A healthy Krownwall has easily made up for Markov. An improved Filppula (have faith Red Wing nation) and a grittier Franzenstein have replaced Lang.

I still can't understand the "soft" argument right now, "we" aren't being muscled around and none of "our" players have been injured or taken out of a game. The only reason we haven't swept these turds is because of brain farts on Doms part and some inopportune defensive lapse.

Don't have the mentality we are going to lose this series, think of this as a shrewd business scheme to get more home game gate receipts for every round until we win game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals

[Hank 0]

By the way, I'm not a big fan of the "not gritty enough" argument. Its not about stocking up on Chris Simon, Fedoruk and Derek a la the Wild. Its about going to the difficult places on the ice to score the goal and once you're there,actually having the hands to do so. I don't think the Preds are exactly knocking the Wings out of the rink.

I totally agree. That's why I LOVED the Wings effort last year against Calgary and Anaheim. I'm just not seeing that kind of gritty, emotional, determination.

Gritty doesn't have to mean goons but it means getting players who relish playoff time. Guys who can't wait to go into a corner to grab a loose puck or go into high traffic areas or finish off checks.

What we really need is our top 6 forwards doing this. We must, must, must get more from Sammy and Filpulla. And Franzen actually. He wasn't very good the last 2 games.

Off the top of my head I wish the Wings could have went after the following players:

Foote, Matt Cooke, Ryan Malone (could have easily been had last trade deadline. But I'm a Malone homer), Fedorov, Lapointe, Fedetenko, Bobby Holik. Any one of these guys would be better than Filp and Sammy IMO (or in Foote's case Lilja, Lebda or Stuart).

[Hank 0]

Under Holland's watch the Red Wings have won two Stanley Cups (1998, 2002), three Presidents' Trophies (2002, 2004, 2006), seven Central Division titles (1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007) and four regular-season Western Conference titles (2002, 2004, 2006, 2007).

Why are people saying he's only been around since 2002?

For the people who said "we" didn't find a replacement for Big Bert, well, that is redonkulus. Bert was never healthy and he was a no show in the latter stages of the playoffs, so stop with that. A healthy Krownwall has easily made up for Markov. An improved Filppula (have faith Red Wing nation) and a grittier Franzenstein have replaced Lang.

I still can't understand the "soft" argument right now, "we" aren't being muscled around and none of "our" players have been injured or taken out of a game. The only reason we haven't swept these turds is because of brain farts on Doms part and some inopportune defensive lapse.

Don't have the mentality we are going to lose this series, think of this as a shrewd business scheme to get more home game gate receipts for every round until we win game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals

First, Filpulla has been completely and utterly useless. I can't remember the last top 6 foward this team has had who's done less than Filp at this point.

The man is compeltely invisible and looks to me like he's completely clueless out there.

The only time I noticed him was when he took a pass from Sammy and instead of shooting it immediately he tried to hold on to it before shooting. There's no time for this in the playoffs. Shoot the puck!

Franzen was good in games 1 and 2, but has disappeared in games 3 and 4. While he does bring some physical play, I don't think anyone on the ice is as scared of Franzen as they are Bertuzzi. Even an injured Bert.

And I realize that the Wings haven't been outmuscled by the Preds but why shouldn't they be expected to beat up on Nashville? They did it to Calgary last year and that team was twice the size as this Preds team.

Why do the Wings constantly need an invitation to crank up their intensity. They always, always, always match their opponents output.

Even in the San Jose series last year both teams seemed lazy and disinterested at times.

It's like the Wings go out of their way to avoid physical play.

ShanahanMan made an excellent observation in that this team looks more like the '05 Oilers. Last year it really did seem like the team was sick and tired of being the laughing stock of the league (which they are in terms of early playoff flops). But since they made it to the conference finals last year, it's as if the team thinks they have a pass and they don't have to work as hard or pay the extra price to succeed.

Regarding Kronner, I'll give you that. However, Holland anticipated having both Markov and Kronwall in last years playoffs. Markov was let go and Holland did nothing to replace him. And he should have because we all know Kronwall's injury problems. Stuart, IMO, is a step down from Markov as he makes far too many mistakes.

Sorry for the long post, but I don't think I'm explaining myself well.

The easiest thing to do is pop in a tape of last years game 1 against Calgary and then replay any of the games we've seen this year so far. It's night and day in terms of determination, hustle and grit.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Hank

[redwing_sparty 0]

I say the same thing here

Yup yup yup

columbus wanted flip and our 1st round pick for federov.

[Hank 0]

columbus wanted flip and our 1st round pick for federov.

That's a complete fabrication. Ken Holland said himself (on XM204) that they had a deal in place for Fedorov. But when they went around the room with the other managers, the vote came out a tie (3-3) whether or not to get him.

If this Filp and a 1st for Fedorov was true, no way on earth I see 3 out of the 6 execs saying 'yes' to it. Even Mike Milbury wouldn't have made that deal, let alone Holland.

Especially when you consider he was dealt for Ted Ruth. Not exactly Babe Ruth.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Hank

[sergei_is_still_a_wing 1]

holland has only put together the best team in hockey for the 12th thats right 12th highest team salary in the sport. its not under his control if the players don't play to their ability. you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. if the boys don't thirst for lord stanley (pun intended) then it starts with the players and moves on to babs.

i don't see how it can be placed on him until we start missing the post season...

[maltbymaniac 13]

i just say off with his head.

i dont know if i can handle any more of these absurd topics, so i think im gonna take a timeout until we are back leading the series.thank you

go wings!

[OsGOD 3]

i just say off with his head.

[Hank 0]

holland has only put together the best team in hockey for the 12th thats right 12th highest team salary in the sport. its not under his control if the players don't play to their ability. you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. if the boys don't thirst for lord stanley (pun intended) then it starts with the players and moves on to babs.

i don't see how it can be placed on him until we start missing the post season...

I disagree. The Wings were a powerhouse in 95 and 96 but failed to win the Cup. What happened after that? A crap load of players were jetissoned (Cicarelli, Burr, Chaisson, Coffey, Primeau, Greg Johnson) while picking up others - Sundstrom, Gilchrist, Brown, Kocur.

Those moves won them the Cup in 97.

It's completely under his control if he continues to supply the coaching staff with players who underperform or can't find that extra gear all players need to win the Cup.

[calfan 0]

I totally agree. That's why I LOVED the Wings effort last year against Calgary and Anaheim. I'm just not seeing that kind of gritty, emotional, determination.

Gritty doesn't have to mean goons but it means getting players who relish playoff time. Guys who can't wait to go into a corner to grab a loose puck or go into high traffic areas or finish off checks.

What we really need is our top 6 forwards doing this. We must, must, must get more from Sammy and Filpulla. And Franzen actually. He wasn't very good the last 2 games.

Off the top of my head I wish the Wings could have went after the following players:

Foote, Matt Cooke, Ryan Malone (could have easily been had last trade deadline. But I'm a Malone homer), Fedorov, Lapointe, Fedetenko, Bobby Holik. Any one of these guys would be better than Filp and Sammy IMO (or in Foote's case Lilja, Lebda or Stuart).

I haven't been able to watch the Wings' games from start to finish - something about spending time with wife and family and the DND sign I hang out when the Flames are playing. So I can't claim to have seen enough to judge how they are doing at winning the battles, but I thought Datsuyk was doing a good job of going to the tough spots last night and he's the one I mainly think can't take the rough stuff. He's improving. Some times winning the battles is an ebb and flow type of scenario. Look at the Flames/Sharks. Two gritty teams, yet one moment one's dominating on the boards and then next moment the other is.

Foote may look good against the Wild, but he's going to have trouble with fast skaters. I think Stuart fits in better with the Wings than he would. For whatever reason, I've never been a big Cooke fan. Decent third liner I guess. Don't know if I've ever seen Malone play. Fedorov (please - I'm not going to bother with this suggestion), Lapointe - don't think you could have gotten him in any case, Fedetenko would fit in well, but not sure he adds grit and Holik is too old and too expensive to bring in.

And don't forget, who they could go after, who they did go after and what they could get are all different things. Still don't think this can necessarily be laid at Holland's feet. Course, it ain't over till its over either and y'all may well have to sing a different tune if the Wings go all the way.

[redwing_sparty 0]

i can;t believe this topic even exists. first of all, who actaully believes we are going to lose this series? are u serious? we beat calagary the same way last year. yes i admit i thought this would be a 5 game series, but stuff happens in the playoffs. we will win this series in 6 games, and even if it went to 7 games, with home ice we'll be fine. all of these western conference series are going to be long and hard (thats what she said) b/c face it the west is ten times better than the east. I am as frustrated as everyone else, but ur not going to sweep every team on the way to the cup.

I think osgood will emerge as the netminder we need to go deep. He has the opportunity to take over this series. Remember that we would be up 3-0 if it hadnt been for these little scoring orgies that nashville pulls out of nowhere.

THe Defense needs to step up a bit in my opinion.

to address the whole "our secondary scoring is crap" issue - Hudler (who everyone was ripping on a month ago) has 4 points, tied with datsyuk. Franzen has been on a role. and hopefully cleary will get on track here soon.

Only thing i could say to knock against holland would be we haven't really had a dominant goal tender. Hasek def is past his prime. He;s still good, but his stamina is def not what it used to be. I did like legace, cujo could have been ok but he was inconsistent. NOW if osgood works out, then we have no problem here.

I would love to see the wings steal malkin or hossa from pittsburg this summer, cuase i doubt they can hold on to them both and crosby.

[redwing_sparty 0]

That's a complete fabrication. Ken Holland said himself (on XM204) that they had a deal in place for Fedorov. But when they went around the room with the other managers, the vote came out a tie (3-3) whether or not to get him.

If this Filp and a 1st for Fedorov was true, no way on earth I see 3 out of the 6 execs saying 'yes' to it. Even Mike Milbury wouldn't have made that deal, let alone Holland.

Especially when you consider he was dealt for Ted Ruth. Not exactly Babe Ruth.

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/03/bl...xing_fedor.html

read it, its in the 2nd to last paragraph.

[Packer487 3]

I don't agree really. He made that Bertuzzi move which was a little ballsy and I think he learned a lesson and wasn't about to pull the same thing this year unless it was all perfectly gift-wrapped and pretty. It may be hard to watch as a fan in the short run but it makes a lot more sense in the long run. I think next year or two years from now it'll become more evident how well he's working in the cap system. Like I said, this is still the learning curve and there are going to be mistakes and things that seemingly don't make sense, but he's made a lot of great moves too along the way. This summer will be an interesting one to watch...

The Bertuzzi move was far from "ballsy". He went for the cheapest guy available that might end up being decent. I actually liked the move because the prices people were asking at last years deadline were kind of nuts. Last year was probably Holland's best performance as a GM. If that team stays healthy, they win the Cup. They still almost pulled it off. I still don't get the flirting with Belfour thing--the season would've been a disaster if Belfour hadn't gotten greedy--but the team he iced was very good.

My position is that you can't be afraid to make a move because the prospect you deal MIGHT end up being decent. And that's really the position we're in with Matthias right now. Yeah he had 2 goals right off the bat in Florida. Yippee. He still hasn't proven to be anything. Definitely not a good enough player to justify being scurred to make a move in the future.

He has made some great moves along the way. As I said earlier, I think he's a pretty good-to-good GM. But I don't believe he's nearly as great as people make him out to be. He was set up very nicely when he took over and had a second Cup fall into his lap when Hasek asked out of Buffalo.

If he's generally afraid to sign guys for money or term (Rafalski would be the exception) and he's scared to trade at the deadline, then he better keep finding bargain guys like Cleary and hit gold on a much higher percentage of his draft picks than he has. And I'm not talking about finding third liners that are a dime a dozen.

You can't build a champion if you're completely afraid to make a mistake. That stuff at the deadline just baffled me. Matthias is not a good enough player to justify refusing to make a move.

And for the record, this isn't me going Chicken Little. I've been saying this stuff for awhile. I hope like hell they pull out of this and win the series--and I think they will--but I still think that it was basically criminal to not get a forward at the deadline.

Quick reply to another post in this thread: Flip needs to be re-signed. He's a good player and we'll probably get him for a pretty decent price. He's not great, he probably won't ever be great, but we could do a lot worse for the money he'll get. He doesn't really deserve the "untouchable" label he's gotten somehow, but he is a solid player. Even if he's been invisible for at least 2 or 3 months.

I also don't know that I'd call Huet a franchise goalie. He was great down the stretch for Washington and he was great a couple years ago in Montreal, but he's also never really carried the load for a team. Definitely a good player, but you really can't fault Holland for not going to get him. (Though I will say, he never would've had the balls to deal a guy like Huet at the deadline and go with Price).

[Jamaica Jon 1]

I disagree. The Wings were a powerhouse in 95 and 96 but failed to win the Cup. What happened after that? A crap load of players were jetissoned (Cicarelli, Burr, Chaisson, Coffey, Primeau, Greg Johnson) while picking up others - Sundstrom, Gilchrist, Brown, Kocur.

Those moves won them the Cup in 97.

It's completely under his control if he continues to supply the coaching staff with players who underperform or can't find that extra gear all players need to win the Cup.

How is Holland supposed to predict this? Every single one of these guys on our roster showed this grit you speak of last playoff season. By your own admission they all showed it against Calgary by stepping up BIG time. Even Flip and Hudler showed it. Those who didn't (Bertuzzi, Calder, to some extent Lang(although he still got goals) ) weren't re-signed. He brought in guys like Drake, McCarty and Downey: guys who he and everyone expected would bring the playoff intangibles you have mentioned (digging in corners, not being intimidated, etc.) By your own definition, it seems he did a fairly adequate job in the off-season. Yet you are calling for him to get canned?

Granted the players aren't playing as 'gritty' as they did last year now, but how much of that can be pinned on Holland?

Hindsight is 20/20.

[Winged Scooter 0]

Under Holland’s watch the Red Wings have won two Stanley Cups (1998, 2002), three Presidents’ Trophies (2002, 2004, 2006), seven Central Division titles (1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007) and four regular-season Western Conference titles (2002, 2004, 2006, 2007).

Why are people saying he's only been around since 2002?

For the people who said "we" didn't find a replacement for Big Bert, well, that is redonkulus. Bert was never healthy and he was a no show in the latter stages of the playoffs, so stop with that. A healthy Krownwall has easily made up for Markov. An improved Filppula (have faith Red Wing nation) and a grittier Franzenstein have replaced Lang.

I still can't understand the "soft" argument right now, "we" aren't being muscled around and none of "our" players have been injured or taken out of a game. The only reason we haven't swept these turds is because of brain farts on Doms part and some inopportune defensive lapse.

Don't have the mentality we are going to lose this series, think of this as a shrewd business scheme to get more home game gate receipts for every round until we win game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals

I pointed this out in another thread but since 1991 the Wings have only advanced past the 2nd round a total of 6 times. This is a "success rate" (if you want to call it that, of 35%). I could care less, and I mean it, seriously could care less, about any regular season title the NHL has to offer. If the Wings earned the 8th seed every single year, but managed to make the WCF's or SCF's 50-60% of those years, wouldn't that mean a hell of a lot more? I realize holland has not been GM since 91, but there have been no less than 7 exits by the 2nd round since he has been.....

[vangvace 12]

Quick reply to another post in this thread: Flip needs to be re-signed. He's a good player and we'll probably get him for a pretty decent price. He's not great, he probably won't ever be great, but we could do a lot worse for the money he'll get. He doesn't really deserve the "untouchable" label he's gotten somehow, but he is a solid player. Even if he's been invisible for at least 2 or 3 months.

And, looking on the bright side, his asking price has gone down a little bit since the playoffs began. (That's positive right?)

[Hank 0]

How is Holland supposed to predict this? Every single one of these guys on our roster showed this grit you speak of last playoff season. By your own admission they all showed it against Calgary by stepping up BIG time. Even Flip and Hudler showed it. Those who didn't (Bertuzzi, Calder, to some extent Lang(although he still got goals) ) weren't re-signed. He brought in guys like Drake, McCarty and Downey: guys who he and everyone expected would bring the playoff intangibles you have mentioned (digging in corners, not being intimidated, etc.) By your own definition, it seems he did a fairly adequate job in the off-season. Yet you are calling for him to get canned?

Granted the players aren't playing as 'gritty' as they did last year now, but how much of that can be pinned on Holland?

Hindsight is 20/20.

How is he supposed to predict this??? Look at the roster. Anyone can see it and think "grit could be an issue".

If Holland didn't think grit and size on the wings wasn't an issue why did he say he was going to address it during the summer? And then again at the deadline? But he did nothing hoping for the best.

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/03/bl...xing_fedor.html

read it, its in the 2nd to last paragraph.

The Sports-Xpress in Russia is widely known to be one of the biggest peices of fiction this side of The Globe. Russian players are constantly complaining about being misquoted or outright lied about.

Where I heard it was on XM204 when Ken Holland himself came on the radio and said it was a 3-3 vote. Seeing as it was undecided they didn't think it was worth the hassle. That part of it, the article got right. But the propsosed deal was not accurate.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Hank

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

WOW, some of you people here call yourself "true fans" and your calling this series over already.. The Wings will be just fine. Back at the Joe tomorrow, the fans behind us.. People just need to relax.. GO WINGS

Not really. The title of the thread was should he be fired "IF" we lose.

I remember people here last year were happy after the Anaheim series that this team showed toughness and courage in the playoffs, and seemed to get past its early round blunders. Likewise, everyone mentioned how without injuries we would have won the Cup.

Thus, if this team goes out in the 1st round now, all that progress we made last year can be flushed right back down the toilet, since this team seems to have regressed with Holland in charge.

And please people, stop mentioning 2002. Holland used Ilitch's money to make moves anyone else would have made if they had the cash. Also, it didn't hurt to have Bowman as the coach helping him look smart.

[maltbymaniac 13]

and the emoticon bandit strike again...lmao

[LeftWinger 4,963]

...to answer the OP's question. Unfortunately, no, he won't be fired. Besides who would replace him? His whole staff thinks the same way he does! It's like having Kilpatrick step down as mayor, who will step up in his place when the entire city council is corrupt beyond imagination!?!?!? There won't be a difference, just someone else to ***** at and blame...