Jiri Hudler

[Heaton 1]

Hossa - Zetterberg- Franzen

Fipulla - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Hudler - Cleary - Sammy

Maltby - Draper - Kopecky

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Stuart - Kronner

Lilja - Lebda

Cleary - Datsyuk - Hossa

Franzen - Zetterberg - Holmstrom

Hudler - Filppula - Samuelsson

Kopecky - Draper - Helm

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Kronwall - Stuart

Lebda - Lilja

[eva unit zero 271]

Man 'o Man, That is PHENOMINAL, We should have no problem bulldozing through the western conference.. Wait wait.. what do i mean by Bulldozing. i should be saying Tippy Toeing past the western conference.

Every team in the NHL players the damnedest against the NHL's Cup Winner, Not to mention we are the Red Wings, So thats added incentive. and not having 1/2 guys who can man up to the other team is sad.. I said it before and i'll get ripped for it again. We need some muscle..

Sure it was great to see Datsyuk stick up for himself and punch Roberts. and it was great to see Franzen punch Malkin while he was lying on the ground. But there is NO WAY i/we can expect them to do that for 82 games a year..

Man Up, Grow Some Balls. Admit that you loved when Downey beatdown Lappy.. You loved it when Mac and McCormick fought in the Playoffs. Admit it you would of loved if someone would of slapped McLeod when he through the octopus back into the tunnel. Admit it when your beloved Hudler got hit, you praised Lilja for standing up for him against Dion Phaneuf.

I expect us to be starting the season with something similar to:

Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Cleary/Hudler/Hossa

Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson

Maltby/Draper/McCarty

Lidstrom/Rafalski

Kronwall/Stuart

Lebda/Lilja

The only difference between that and the roster that just won the Cup is that we swap out Drake for Hossa and what was our second line becomes the third line. If you seriously think that Dallas Drake had more effect on the Cup win than Hossa would, you are not a good scout.

[Heaton 1]

We're gonna need a center on that 2nd line, eva.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I've been a hockey fan since I was two years old. In that span of time, I've enjoyed success as a player and coach. Point being, kiss off.

I never said Downey isn't valuable. What I said was "Downey's not terribly valuable to the team." Fact: a player who doesn't play in the postseason is not high up on the totem pole. That's neither anti-Downey nor anti-enforcing. If it's anti-anything, it's anti-exaggeration-of-the-importance-of-enforcers.

The Wings just tore through the postseason and won the whole shebang without the aid of a serious enforcer. What's more, they didn't have many injury problems (from, you know, being beaten up because they're like, so soft) to contend with.

Downey, like I said, didn't play. Sure, he helped morale in the regular season, but the Wings would have won the Presidents' Trophy without him. If the argument is that he kept our guys from getting injured or something along those lines -- well, I seem to recall this team incurring quite a few injuries during the regular season. Mac was a late-season acquisition who didn't do a whole lot in the way of intimidating, let alone legitimately enforcing.

Dear "pro-enforcer" crowd,

Give. it. a. rest.

Why single out Downey?

There's plenty of guys we could have won the Cup without even if they weren't on the team. Why not say that those other players are expendable? Yet for some reason, too many people here are quick to point at Downey and McCarty as being the most expendable players.

The great Thomas Kopecky isn't expendable, but Downey is.

Typical.

[eva unit zero 271]

We're gonna need a center on that 2nd line, eva.

It's being centered by a center who was called the most talented center in his draft class.

[Heaton 1]

It's being centered by a center who was called the most talented center in his draft class.

And by someone who hasn't been a center since coming over to NA. Being a center and being a winger have completely different responisiblities. Hudler is best suited for the wing in the NHL which is why he's playing there. On the same note, it doesn't necessarily make sense to bring in Hossa and not play him with one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

[eva unit zero 271]

Why single out Downey?

There's plenty of guys we could have won the Cup without even if they weren't on the team. Why not say that those other players are expendable? Yet for some reason, too many people here are quick to point at Downey and McCarty as being the most expendable players.

The great Thomas Kopecky isn't expendable, but Downey is.

Typical.

Kopecky is not terribly valuable to the team. But a major difference? Kopecky is a big, skilled kid with a decent all-around game. He's also young. Downey and McCarty are old fourth-liners with no offensive or defensive skill. Kopecky is far from necessary, but certainly more valuable to the Wings than Downey. It's like sunglasses vs sunscreen on summer day. Which is more necessary? Well, obviously neither are absolutely necessary, but sunscreen is more important than sunglasses.

[eva unit zero 271]

And by someone who hasn't been a center since coming over to NA. Being a center and being a winger have completely different responisiblities. Hudler is best suited for the wing in the NHL which is why he's playing there. On the same note, it doesn't necessarily make sense to bring in Hossa and not play him with one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

Hudler is the best playmaker we have after those two to pair with Hossa.

And given the fact that DZH stayed together at times when they probably should have been split, I expect Hossa to start apart from Dats and Z.

[Heaton 1]

Hudler is the best playmaker we have after those two to pair with Hossa.

And given the fact that DZH stayed together at times when they probably should have been split, I expect Hossa to start apart from Dats and Z.

They were kept together because the options to play with them apart weren't as strong as a Marian Hossa. NN has beat this drum since we signed him, Babcock has split up Datsyuk and Z to start the season every year that he's coached, but it never stuck because we didn't have an emerging Franzen and a superstar winger to put with both of them. If Hudler fits on one of those lines, sweet. But if we have our best playmaker and our second best playmaker and they're both playmaking centers, it only makes sense to put Hossa with one of them.

[Guest Crymson]

Why single out Downey?

There's plenty of guys we could have won the Cup without even if they weren't on the team. Why not say that those other players are expendable? Yet for some reason, too many people here are quick to point at Downey and McCarty as being the most expendable players.

The great Thomas Kopecky isn't expendable, but Downey is.

Typical.

Kopecky has good skating ability, he checks, he can pass and cycle the puck, and he can score. He's still developing and he has potential. Beyond this, Hossa stated him as a large factor as to why he chose to sign with the Wings. He's far from useless. Be grateful.

Comparing him to Downey in terms of playing ability is hilarious. Downey may be a better fighter, but Kopecky is FAR more valuable in every other area.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Why single out Downey?

There's plenty of guys we could have won the Cup without even if they weren't on the team. Why not say that those other players are expendable? Yet for some reason, too many people here are quick to point at Downey and McCarty as being the most expendable players.

The great Thomas Kopecky isn't expendable, but Downey is.

Typical.

It is surprising to me that even after last season, people don't see the value in having guys like Downey and Drake on the team. To me it is like night and day watching how last year's team played versus the previous couple seasons where the power play was the enforcer. Meaning a Wings player would get cheapshotted and everyone would stand around.

And before anyone says it, no it's not necessarily a deterrent to cheapshots. But it's fairly obvious it has an impact on team chemistry, how physical the Wings play, and how opponents play against them.

I'd love to have a guy who can make valuable contribution AND drop the gloves and win some fights. But short of that, I'll take Downey in his extremely limited but effective role.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Kopecky has good skating ability, he checks, he can pass and cycle the puck, and he can score. He's still developing and he has potential. Beyond this, Hossa stated him as a large factor as to why he chose to sign with the Wings. He's far from useless. Be grateful.

Comparing him to Downey in terms of playing ability is hilarious. Downey may be a better fighter, but Kopecky is FAR more valuable in every other area.

I'm grateful for Lidstrom, Yzerman, Pavel, Hank and several other great Wings.

Kopecky is not someone to be grateful about. He's as useful as a bag of refried beans. Most those things you described about him arent' even true. The potential is something that remains to be seen. So far, he's showed me nothing in 2 years, except that he can beat up Patrick Sharp.

You don't expect me to glorify a guy for that, do you?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Kopecky has good skating ability, he checks, he can pass and cycle the puck, and he can score. He's still developing and he has potential. Beyond this, Hossa stated him as a large factor as to why he chose to sign with the Wings. He's far from useless. Be grateful.

Comparing him to Downey in terms of playing ability is hilarious. Downey may be a better fighter, but Kopecky is FAR more valuable in every other area.

Kopecky is head and shoulders above Downey in terms of playing ability. The thing is that we have a lot of guys in the lineup with the qualities you mentioned, and none that really bring what Downey does, especially with Drake gone.

I'm not attached to Downey specifically, but the Wings do need a player like him out there.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

The only difference between that and the roster that just won the Cup is that we swap out Drake for Hossa and what was our second line becomes the third line. If you seriously think that Dallas Drake had more effect on the Cup win than Hossa would, you are not a good scout.

*sigh*

Did you care to even read? did i say anything about Hossa? did i mention his name more then once ffs? NO.

IM ******* SAYING THAT WE NEED SOME PEOPLE TO PROTECT PEOPLE LIKE HOSSA/DATSYUK/ZETTERBERG.. ******* christ you guys are ******* thick.

[Doc Holiday 0]

*sigh*

Did you care to even read? did i say anything about Hossa? did i mention his name more then once ffs? NO.

IM ******* SAYING THAT WE NEED SOME PEOPLE TO PROTECT PEOPLE LIKE HOSSA/DATSYUK/ZETTERBERG.. ******* christ you guys are ******* thick.

And guys like Franzen/Lilja can't step up and throw down? Even Datsyuk and Hossa are scrappy so I don't see what the worry is over them.

[Anomalously 0]

*sigh*

Did you care to even read? did i say anything about Hossa? did i mention his name more then once ffs? NO.

IM ******* SAYING THAT WE NEED SOME PEOPLE TO PROTECT PEOPLE LIKE HOSSA/DATSYUK/ZETTERBERG.. ******* christ you guys are ******* thick.

Calm down.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

And guys like Franzen/Lilja can't step up and throw down? Even Datsyuk and Hossa are scrappy so I don't see what the worry is over them.

Lilja yes, sometimes.

Franzen, not so much. If the Wings are relying on Mule to protect them, they're in for a long season.

And there's a huge difference between being scrappy and going toe to toe with someone.

[Heaton 1]

And there's a huge difference between being scrappy and going toe to toe with someone.

Franzen isn't and shouldn't be a fighter but there's also a difference between going toe to toe and what Walker did right there.

As far as protecting Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa ect... the only time any action really needed to be taken place is the hit on Lidstrom last year. Other than that? It doens't happen because these guys don't put themseleves in the position to get cheapshotted. That was the first time in Lidstrom's CAREER that he's ever been that vulnerable. The majority of the time it's the Wings initiating the 'cheapshots' and punishment.

If Downey and McCarty were smart, they'd have already signed their contracts. No clue what McCarty is waiting for if it isn't just a paper jam in the fax machine. I hope they get signed, I really do, but I really question how many games they'll play if they do just because of the personnel who will be there every night (baring injuries).

[Slave 31]

anyone mentioning cleary in all this, he is gritty as F$#% and i am pretty sure he would stand up for anyone on the team, he might not be the biggest but he did go after pronger last year; also i have never seen Huds back down from anyone he is always in the middle of the scrums

[egroen 384]

Put everyone on the team through the Kocur training course Fischer took.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

And guys like Franzen/Lilja can't step up and throw down? Even Datsyuk and Hossa are scrappy so I don't see what the worry is over them.

I love Franzen as much as the next Wings fan. He can get a little feisty from time to time and he won't back down from a Mexican standoff, but if he has to fight 15 -20 times a year, we are in trouble. Who is out there that can be invited to camp if we can't figure something out with Downey or Mac? Is there a contingency plan?

[Heaton 1]

I love Franzen as much as the next Wings fan. He can get a little feisty from time to time and he won't back down from a Mexican standoff, but if he has to fight 15 -20 times a year, we are in trouble. Who is out there that can be invited to camp if we can't figure something out with Downey or Mac? Is there a contingency plan?

Downey and McCarty are good at their jobs, but it's pretty easy to find a guy who can play 3-4 minutes and fight. The only hard part is to keep them under control so they don't hurt the team with stupid penalties. There's probably a dozen guys available who could do the same job, probably why they get two-way deals.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

anyone mentioning cleary in all this, he is gritty as F$#% and i am pretty sure he would stand up for anyone on the team, he might not be the biggest but he did go after pronger last year; also i have never seen Huds back down from anyone he is always in the middle of the scrums

Not backing down in scrums and laying down some justice to protect star players are two different things. Don't confuse the two.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Franzen isn't and shouldn't be a fighter but there's also a difference between going toe to toe and what Walker did right there.

As far as protecting Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa ect... the only time any action really needed to be taken place is the hit on Lidstrom last year. Other than that? It doens't happen because these guys don't put themseleves in the position to get cheapshotted. That was the first time in Lidstrom's CAREER that he's ever been that vulnerable. The majority of the time it's the Wings initiating the 'cheapshots' and punishment.

If Downey and McCarty were smart, they'd have already signed their contracts. No clue what McCarty is waiting for if it isn't just a paper jam in the fax machine. I hope they get signed, I really do, but I really question how many games they'll play if they do just because of the personnel who will be there every night (baring injuries).

Honestly I think what Walker did is fine. Franzen nailed one of their big players on a borderline hit from behind, so Walker went after him. When they're over by the net, it looks like he squared up. He didn't jump him from behind or anything. Franzen had plenty of time to stick up for himself. He's just not really a fighter.

Lidstrom I'm not worried about because you're right, the guy's nearly impossible to hit. I don't understand quite how, but he never gets hit. But the past few seasons there were many instances of guys getting run. Lebda, Wililams, I can't even remember all the guys who were on the receiving end of headshots, or hits from behind, or questionable hits in general. I disagree that the vast majority of the time it's the Wings doling out the punishment. I think last season was the exception, partly because of guys like Drake and Downey, and that the rest of the team stepped up their physical play as well.

Like I said, I'm not specifically attached to McCarty or Downey, but I do think we need someone in that capacity, especially now that Drake is gone. I just disagree with the idea the Wings no longer need anyone in that role when they could have a skill player in the spot (that's not directed at you, but is a growing opinion around here). As Bluemonk has pointed out, it's about balance. Having the lineup chock full of skill players does not necessarily mean the Wings have the best chance at winning.

Edited July 24, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[Heaton 1]

Honestly I think what Walker did is fine.

I do too.

Like I said, I'm not specifically attached to McCarty or Downey, but I do think we need someone in that capacity, especially now that Drake is gone. I just disagree with the idea the Wings no longer need anyone in that role when they could have a skill player in the spot (that's not directed at you, but is a growing opinion around here). As Bluemonk has pointed out, it's about balance. Having the lineup chock full of skill players does not necessarily mean the Wings have the best chance at winning.

I think this works both ways, the opinion of people that want more than one fighter or enforcer on the team is exaggerated and the people who feel that one is enough or even none is exaggerated. The thing is, the Wings have balance, almost as perfect as you can get. The Wings have the grinders, the physical guys, the skill guys ect... The balance is there. I hope you don't look at the Wings and see all skill and finesse, I don't know how you could. In the playoffs this year the Wings punished the other teams, wore them out and they were afraid coming across the blueline, exactly what everyone wants to see. Obviously Drake was a huge contributer physically wise and has more big hit ability than a guy like Kopecky but the difference isn't as great as I've read. The Wings will find someone that's main concern is dropping the gloves but look at the team we have now. Obviously the Wings aren't a 'fighting' team that sends messages with their fists, they don't have to be. Stuart fights, he'll stick up for his teammates, as will Lilja and Cleary to an extent and Kopecky will fight the lower middle weights if needed. If Quincey sticks you know he'll want to make his mark and he'll try to do that with his fists.

I guess the problem comes with word definitions. I believe the Wings are as tough as any team in the league, they just don't fight as much. The Wings never back down or get rattled, they initiate contact and dole out just as much punishment as recieved. Having a guy like Downey or McCarty is great because they fit into the team concept, the concept that has worked for 15+ years. It's not going to change just because people are worried now for some reason that because the Wings won the cup now we have to worry about teams gunning for us? The course is exactly the same as if lost in the first round last year.

I think we're on the same page harold, one or two guys who will do the fighting is fine, they players like it, hell they liked Brad Norton. But the notion that something actually needs to be changed is foolish. 2008 Stanley Cup Champions.