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A case for #91 in the rafters?


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#101 adamic

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:42 AM

He left. He screwed us. Did you forget that? If he would have stayed and kept playing at a high level, maybe.

#102 wingedone

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 07:07 AM

When I go and look at the tapes of the 1997. 1998, and 2002 playoffs and how Feds played his butt off, I am still amazed at his tenacity and skill.

Put it up there, he deserves to be remembered as an integral part that brought Stanley back to Detroit.

#103 egroen

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 08:14 AM

QUOTE
He played centre for the Leafs but also played other positions in Detroit when needed. He did not ONLY play D. If some pleb in Australia like me knew this, surely you guys did too.

He was used as a forward occassionally on the power play for the Red Wings (or when there were forward injuries)... but obviously not enough for him to not be considered one of the greatest defensemen of the time. His game was a lot like Lidstrom's: very cerebral. Ironically, he was a golden gloves boxer, but rarely used it on the ice.

Edited by egroen, 16 October 2008 - 08:15 AM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#104 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 08:19 AM

Fedorov vs Draper.[/b] Draper has spent most of his time in Detroit as a defensive specialist playing the same or lesser quality defense than Fedorov was playing at the same time. Both have always been lightning-quick skaters, and Fedorov's offensive ability and physical strength while having the same speed and defensive skills really sets him apart from a guy like Draper. Draper has spent most of his time in Detroit as a third or fourth line grinder...Fedorov spent his entire career in Detroit as a first or second line forward while playing both on the power play and the penalty kill due to his amazing two-way abilities. Draper will never even get a sniff of jersey retirement, and everyone but cracked out Draper fans know it.



Eva, you are such a tool. hehe.gif I say that in a nice way.

I mean c'mon. Draper has been a fantastic defensive forward forever. Do you realize when you throw these little, bulls*** comments into your posts. Do you seriously think people will just read it and accept it.

Why disparage Draper. Anybody in hockey will tell you he's been one of the best defensive forwards for a decade. Why is it necessary to make a statement that he only played the same or "lesser" defense than Fedorov. There's no substance behind that statement.

Give me a friggin' break. You'll say anything to try and make a case for your love child Feds.

Oh, and by the way, since we're comparing players to Fedorov.

Draper = tenure with the Wings
Draper = never signed offer sheet TO WILLINGLY LEAVE DETROIT RED WINGS (talk your way out of that one Casanova)


At the end of the day, pissed off Fedorov fans like yourself are just going to have to suck up your pride and come to grips with the FACT that nobody whose opinion matters wants 91 hanging from the rafters. Find a way to friggin' cope with that s*** already. This is getting so old.

Edited by GordieSid&Ted, 16 October 2008 - 08:21 AM.

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#105 egroen

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 08:32 AM

Retiring Draper would open the rafters up, however... unlike Fedorov.
Osgood would go up for sure. Holmstrom has an equal case with Draper and Maltby is not far behind. Hell, we would probably be hearing McCarty's jersey should be retired. Draper should definitely be an "Honored Member" of the alumni association, which is actually pretty exclusive company if you care to look at the members and quite an honor in its own right. --- Sorta reminds me of the exclusive "7 Timer" club for hosts of Saturday Night Live (if you have ever seen that one).

Edited by egroen, 16 October 2008 - 08:34 AM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#106 eva unit zero

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:00 AM

QUOTE (Doggy @ October 16, 2008 - 03:20AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Red Kelly actually played pretty much every position. Except goal. Dunno where you heard otherwise.


Ok, I'll rephrase for clarity. He did not play D outside of Detroit.
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#107 union drone

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:33 AM

Why doesn't anyone make a case for Ebbie Goodfellow?

1) Played only for Detroit (1929-1943)

2) Won Hart trophy in 1940

3) Was a first team all-star on multiple occasions

4) Was a key player on Detroit's Stanley cup wins in 1936, 1937, and 1943.

5) Was the last NHL player to win the cup as a player-coach in 1943, after which he retired.

6) Hall of Famer since 1963.

Probably because no one remembers him.

Edit: corrected a fact, Wings won in 1943, not 1940.

Edited by union drone, 16 October 2008 - 09:58 AM.

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#108 egroen

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:37 AM

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Why doesn't anyone make a case for Ebbie Goodfellow?

I agree with you... Aurie and Goodfellow would be excellent representatives of Detroit's early Cups.

Aurie
Goodfellow
Kelly

There is no doubt in my mind those guys should be in.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#109 eva unit zero

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:41 AM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ October 16, 2008 - 09:19AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I mean c'mon. Draper has been a fantastic defensive forward forever. Do you realize when you throw these little, bulls*** comments into your posts. Do you seriously think people will just read it and accept it.

Why disparage Draper. Anybody in hockey will tell you he's been one of the best defensive forwards for a decade. Why is it necessary to make a statement that he only played the same or "lesser" defense than Fedorov. There's no substance behind that statement.

Give me a friggin' break. You'll say anything to try and make a case for your love child Feds.

Oh, and by the way, since we're comparing players to Fedorov.

Draper = tenure with the Wings
Draper = never signed offer sheet TO WILLINGLY LEAVE DETROIT RED WINGS (talk your way out of that one Casanova)


Fedorov was a Selke nominee his second season in the league. Fedorov was ahead of Draper in Selke votes his last year with the team. I don't think there is a year in history that Draper received more Selke votes than Fedorov when the two played on the same team.

Draper has been a very good defensive forward for a long time. But he didn't get serious Selke consideration until Yzerman's knee was really causing him trouble skating and Fedorov had left.

Fedorov in 1997 was the league's best player. He signed an offer sheet when it was put to him more than halfway through the season. And you know what? The offer was for less than his market value. Fedorov signed a contract for LESS THAN HIS MARKET VALUE. And this was AFTER HOLDING OUT ALL SEASON because the Wings wouldn't offer him a reasonable contract. I am all for cheering on the crest on the front over the name on the back...but realistically, what the hell was going on there?

Honestly, I don't care if Fedorov's number gets retired. I think he deserves it, but will it break my heart if it doesn't happen? No. I guess I'm not that emotionally invested in the fate of whether a player's number is retired, especially when that player is still playing in the NHL and could therefore potentially change the argument.

Oh, and btw...no Wings player has ever had their jersey retired who didn't start their career with the Wings. This knocks off Draper and Shanahan, as well as Chelios.

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#110 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ October 16, 2008 - 10:41AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fedorov was a Selke nominee his second season in the league. Fedorov was ahead of Draper in Selke votes his last year with the team. I don't think there is a year in history that Draper received more Selke votes than Fedorov when the two played on the same team.

Draper has been a very good defensive forward for a long time. But he didn't get serious Selke consideration until Yzerman's knee was really causing him trouble skating and Fedorov had left.

Fedorov in 1997 was the league's best player. He signed an offer sheet when it was put to him more than halfway through the season. And you know what? The offer was for less than his market value. Fedorov signed a contract for LESS THAN HIS MARKET VALUE. And this was AFTER HOLDING OUT ALL SEASON because the Wings wouldn't offer him a reasonable contract. I am all for cheering on the crest on the front over the name on the back...but realistically, what the hell was going on there?

Honestly, I don't care if Fedorov's number gets retired. I think he deserves it, but will it break my heart if it doesn't happen? No. I guess I'm not that emotionally invested in the fate of whether a player's number is retired, especially when that player is still playing in the NHL and could therefore potentially change the argument.

Oh, and btw...no Wings player has ever had their jersey retired who didn't start their career with the Wings. This knocks off Draper and Shanahan, as well as Chelios.



I'm sure Fedorov did get more votes. Although you should admit to the fact that the voting has always been skewed towards forwards who can score as well. Draper wasn't much of a scorer and you know and I know that has played a major influence on how the voting has gone. I don't need the screwed up voting system, to which we all agree has been screwed up forever...i don't need that to tell me Draper is/was every bit as good as any forward in the league the past 10 years at playing defense. Votes, schmotes, the selke voting has almost never been applied properly.

For the record, i'm not clamoring for anybody but Lids to have their number retired. A case can be made for Fedorov and certainly, IMO a case can be made for Ozzie, Draper and even Homer depending upon how they finish up their careers. Doesn't matter to me if none of them end up with the honor.


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#111 HomeNugget

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE (union drone @ October 16, 2008 - 09:33AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why doesn't anyone make a case for Ebbie Goodfellow?

1) Played only for Detroit (1929-1943)

2) Won Hart trophy in 1940

3) Was a first team all-star on multiple occasions

3) Was a key player on Detroit's Stanley cup wins in 1936, 1937, and 1940.

4) Was the last NHL player to win the cup as a player-coach in 1943, after which he retired.

5) Hall of Famer since 1963.

Probably because no one remembers him.


Detroit didn't win a Stanley Cup in 1940, and Jack Adams coached every wings game from 27'-28' through 46'-47'. I agree though, it should have been retired. I believe he wore number 5 though, so it will be up in the rafters before too long.

#112 union drone

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:59 AM

QUOTE (HomeNugget @ October 16, 2008 - 10:56AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Detroit didn't win a Stanley Cup in 1940, and Jack Adams coached every wings game from 27'-28' through 46'-47'. I agree though, it should have been retired. I believe he wore number 5 though, so it will be up in the rafters before too long.


That's a typo on my part. I typed 1940 and should have typed 1943. I fixed the typo. Thanks.

As for the player-coach info, I got it from here:

click here

Perhaps the Wings had both a coach and a "player-coach" at that time, although that seems a bit strange. Anyone with more information?

Edited by union drone, 16 October 2008 - 10:05 AM.

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#113 union drone

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 10:19 AM

QUOTE (egroen @ October 16, 2008 - 10:37AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with you... Aurie and Goodfellow would be excellent representatives of Detroit's early Cups.

Aurie
Goodfellow
Kelly

There is no doubt in my mind those guys should be in.


As long as we're discussing old-timers, how about Jack Stewart:

1) three-time first team and two-time second team all-star on defense

2) key contributor to Wings' cups in 1943 and 1950

3) Inducted into Hall of Fame in 1964

4) considered one of the most punishing defensemen of his era

5) Rated #97 in The Hockey News' top 100 players of all time.

Not as much of a case for him as with Goodfellow, and also didn't play all of his best years for the Wings, but still a case could be made.

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#114 egroen

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 10:44 AM

QUOTE
As long as we're discussing old-timers, how about Jack Stewart:

"Black" Jack Stewart smile.gif
A player like him should be in before the secondary cup-contributors of this generation, but much better cases can be made for Aurie and Goodfellow -- I really think those early Cup teams deserve some representation in the rafters. Syd Howe is another guy that should warrant consideration, but again, not before Aurie and Goodfellow.

The 50s dynasty team marks the best chapter in Wings history, and they should be well represented in the rafters: Howe, Sawchuk, Lindsay, Abel and Delvecchio all deserve to be up there -- and so does Red Kelly (weird that he is not). But they make up over 80% of the names currently in the rafters, which ignores a lot of other Red Wings greats over the years.

The latest team should see Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov and possibly Osgood go up - good and accurate representation. But those early teams are really lacking, and I would love to see the Illitches honor them.

Edited by egroen, 16 October 2008 - 10:45 AM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#115 betterREDthandead

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE (wingedone @ October 16, 2008 - 08:07AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Put it up there, he deserves to be remembered as an integral part that brought Stanley back to Detroit.

Agreed....but why does it have to be in the form of a retired number? I think people have this notion that if the number isn't retired, then the player remains 100% unhonored and forgotten. Fedorov can be honored in other ways, like, isn't there a Hall of Fame in the Joe with plaques and such? Retiring a number should IMO be the absolute pinnacle of honor. It's not as if you either retire the number or forget the guy entirely.
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#116 sagnam

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:06 AM

egroen now has 8 numbers. That's the box I'm talking about.

#117 FedorovGurl

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:09 AM

QUOTE (betterREDthandead @ October 16, 2008 - 11:58AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed....but why does it have to be in the form of a retired number? I think people have this notion that if the number isn't retired, then the player remains 100% unhonored and forgotten. Fedorov can be honored in other ways, like, isn't there a Hall of Fame in the Joe with plaques and such? Retiring a number should IMO be the absolute pinnacle of honor. It's not as if you either retire the number or forget the guy entirely.



Sigh...
I have to agree.
And no one loves Fedorov more than I (hence the name). He will always be one of my favorite Red Wings of all time but I think retiring numbers should be reserved for players who were truly extraordinary or it starts to mean less and less.
(Oh and if Shanahan's number ever hangs there, you will find me hanging on a noose right next to it!)
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#118 egroen

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE
egroen now has 8 numbers. That's the box I'm talking about.

Aurie
Goodfellow
Kelly

I would put those three up right now - do you disagree with any of them? They have nothing to do with Fedorov.

Lidstrom
Fedorov

Should be the next ones.

QUOTE
I think retiring numbers should be reserved for players who were truly extraordinary or it starts to mean less and less.

What is not "truly extraordinary" about Fedorov's time in Detroit?
Howe, Lidstrom, Kelly, Lindsay and Yzerman are probably the only better Red Wings in history.

Edited by egroen, 16 October 2008 - 11:20 AM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#119 DenJ91

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:00 PM

hey everyone i'm back!! been a while since i've been on this forum. hello to my friends again

now, do you really need me to chime in on this? i don't think so, i've been there done that, but i might just get tempted too. haha. it's probably the 100th time this topic has been started and i'm guilty of creating one last season.


OF COURSE, feds should have his # retired, and if you can't figure out why you have problems. you gotta leave the departure thing aside and simply go by what he's done and only a couple have done more in the history of this great hockey team.
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#120 Barrie

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:06 PM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ October 16, 2008 - 09:19AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Eva, you are such a tool. hehe.gif I say that in a nice way.

I mean c'mon. Draper has been a fantastic defensive forward forever. Do you realize when you throw these little, bulls*** comments into your posts. Do you seriously think people will just read it and accept it.

Why disparage Draper. Anybody in hockey will tell you he's been one of the best defensive forwards for a decade. Why is it necessary to make a statement that he only played the same or "lesser" defense than Fedorov. There's no substance behind that statement.

Give me a friggin' break. You'll say anything to try and make a case for your love child Feds.

Oh, and by the way, since we're comparing players to Fedorov.

Draper = tenure with the Wings
Draper = never signed offer sheet TO WILLINGLY LEAVE DETROIT RED WINGS (talk your way out of that one Casanova)


At the end of the day, pissed off Fedorov fans like yourself are just going to have to suck up your pride and come to grips with the FACT that nobody whose opinion matters wants 91 hanging from the rafters. Find a way to friggin' cope with that s*** already. This is getting so old.

Eva's comments were harmless. If this was another franchise (Toronto or Montreal, or the New York Yankees laugh.gif) Draper may be considered for number retirement.

It a tough call, it's nice to see numbers retired and our favorite players honored, but it's good to see a franchise like Detroit keep it elite. As I mentioned, if standards weren't as high as they are, the Wings could have 16 numbers in the rafters within the next 15 years.
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