Goalie Issues...

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Like it or not these are the guys that we will be counting on for the rest of the year

[Blueliner 69]

Unless he can be traded, the Wings can not just 'dump' Osgood. Like Draper, he signed a multi-year contract after the age of 35 so whether he retires, gets sent to the minors or even dies, the Wings are still on the hook for his salary cap.

I guess that's what I was trying to say. Kind of like when they got rid of him when Hasek came to town. I forget how he ended up in Long Island, whether he was traded, waived, released or free agency.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

It is quite the love/hate relationship with Ozzie in Detroit

[Guest tini]

Our goalie situation isn't as bad as it looks. Our bigger issue at the moment is our road penalty killing, and our D's tendency to give up the puck in our own zone. I think at the end of the year, we'll have the same goaltending duo that you see out there now, and with any luck, Ozzie will be back to his old self. You really can't get on Conklin...the guy's been stellar, and nobody's perfect. The defense, however, needs to step it up a bit and get themselves back to the level they played at last year.

Overall...we're still 31-9-6...an awesome record. These hiccups will happen, and a 6-game road trip is where they're most likely to occur.

I agree. It seems to be that alot of people want to put alot or all of the blame on our goalies (which is the downside of being a goalie) However in my opinion if our defense was where it should be we wouldnt be letting as many goals in as we have been.

[Broken 16 381]

Like it or not these are the guys that we will be counting on for the rest of the year

I'm fine with going into the playoffs with a multiple Cup winner as our starter and the guy who carried a Stanley Cup finalist for a large chunk of the season last year as his back-up. Even Pen fans admit that Conklin was a huge factor in their success last year.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Broken 16

[thedisappearer 291]

Unless he can be traded, the Wings can not just 'dump' Osgood. Like Draper, he signed a multi-year contract after the age of 35 so whether he retires, gets sent to the minors or even dies, the Wings are still on the hook for his salary cap.

Not that I wish it, but if they actually *died*, we still take the cap hit? That's kinda dumb as f***. "Sorry your starting goalie died and all... but you still have the cap hit."

[chrisdetroit 189]

quite frankly i'd call the last 2 games pretty s***ty. 11 goals vs teams that we WILL be facing in the playoffs!

Any word on how Datsyuk is? Stuart?

W will NOT be facing the Sharks in the playoffs. The Wings and Sharks will finish 1-2 or 2-1 which means we couldn't play them until the WCF (fixed) and the Sharks always lose before that.

hahahahahah

Edited January 22, 2009 by chrisdetroit

[chrisdetroit 189]

Don't expect the Wings to pick up a goalie this season. No contending team is going to trade their goalie and there aren't any teams not contending that have a decent goalie. They'll ride it out with what they have. Osgood will start the playoffs. If he can't perform, I'm sure Conklin will step in.

Here's what I think will happen going into next year. If Osgood does well in the playoffs, he will be back next year with Howard as the back up. If he doesn't perform, I think there's a good chance the Wings will dump him and go get someone like Backstrom and bring up Howard. For all the Larsson lovers out there, the reason why I think Howard will be the back up is because he is no longer waiver exempt after this season. And it gives Larsson more time to develop while we get to see if Howard pans out.

But as for now, Osgood and Conklin will the goalies for the rest of the year.

Backstrom makes 3.1 mil this year and with the season he is having he's easily 4mil a year. where are the Wings going to get the cap space?

ANd if you think Minny would trade him... It's not gonna happen.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

W will NOT be facing the Sharks in the playoffs. The Wings and Sharks will finish 1-2 or 2-1 which means we couldn't play them until the WCF (fixed) and the Sharks always lose before that.

hahahahahah

Yeah, that's what people said about Detroit from 03-07, and probably 91-97 too. Dont count San Jose out, espicially now that they have alot of leadership in that lockeroom.

[interminded 1]

It is quite the love/hate relationship with Ozzie in Detroit

....

[Outsider 42]

It is quite the love/hate relationship with Ozzie in Detroit

Exactly what I posted elsewhere. Love/hate, indeed....

Wings fans love to hate him when he loses, and they hate to love him when he wins. Been that way for the past decade+.

I'm sure he's quite used to it, by now.

[egroen 384]

Not that I wish it, but if they actually *died*, we still take the cap hit? That's kinda dumb as f***. "Sorry your starting goalie died and all... but you still have the cap hit."

Pretty sure it is to discourage GMs from hiring hitmen in order to cover up their signing mistakes...

[Blueliner 69]

I'm fine with going into the playoffs with a multiple Cup winner as our starter and the guy who carried a Stanley Cup finalist for a large chunk of the season last year as his back-up. Even Pen fans admit that Conklin was a huge factor in their success last year.

Conklin was the only reason why they even made the playoffs. They sucked until Fleury got hurt. I remember watching the game that it happened. He went out and Conklin came in and I remember thinking that I had never heard of this guy. He went on the beat Vancouver I believe in a shootout that game. They then went on like a ten game win streak. Conklin carried that team. Fleury is extremely overrated. He just benefited from being on a good team in a very weak conference.

[eva unit zero 271]

Not a Kipper fan? I see the numbers, but I would still take Kipper over Huet or Khabibulin, or just about anyone else on that list. Every goaltender statistic is impacted, for better or worse, by the team in front of them, the numbers can't tell the whole story.

Kipper has not consistently played up to the level he is rated at for years. He has had maybe one game here and there where he has been really good, but his reputation has stayed as that of an elite stopper and people have acted like he is as good as or better than Brodeur even in the past couple seasons when he has not consistently played at that level and isn't at that level now.

But the big question I have is: People act like Nabokov or Kiprusoff are allowed to put up lower numbers when they play almost every game, but then when goalies like Brodeur and Backstrom play almost every game while among the league leaders in save percentage and goals against average nobody gives them a 'games played' credit. Beyond that, Osgood and guys like him has always gotten the 'good team' discredit where if he posts good stats, it doesn't count because his team is good so he obviously didn't have any effect on his own numbers.

How come some guys can post decent numbers and be Vezina finalists while other guys can post solid, but more importantly, better stats and not even get a thought for the Vezina? It doesn't make sense.

I'll point something out. Let's take a look at the 11 guys who received Vezina votes last season, and each goalie's basic stat line.

1) Martin Brodeur 77 GP, 44 W- 27 L- 6 OT, 2.17 GAA, .920%, 4 SO

2) Evgeni Nabokov 77 GP, 46 W- 21 L- 8 OT, 2.14 GAA, .910%, 6 SO

3) Henrik Lundqvist 72 GP, 37 W- 24 L- 10 OT, 2.23 GAA, .912%, 10 SO

4) Jean-Sebastien Giguere 58 GP, 35 W- 15 L- 6 OT, 2.12 GAA, .922%, 4 SO

5) Miikka Kiprusoff 76 GP, 39 W- 26 L- 10 OT, 2.69 GAA, .906%, 2 SO

6) Nicklas Backstrom 58 GP, 33 W- 13 L- 8 OT, 2.31 GAA, .920%, 4 SO

7) Roberto Luongo 73 GP, 35 W- 29 L- 9 OT, 2.38 GAA, .917%, 6 SO

8) Cristobal Huet 52 GP, 32 W- 14 L- 6 OT, 2.32 GAA, .920%, 4 SO

9) Carey Price 41 GP, 24 W- 12 L- 3 OT, 2.56 GAA, .920%, 3 SO

9) Tim Thomas 57 GP, 28 W- 19 L- 6 OT, 2.44 GAA, .921%, 3 SO

11) Chris Osgood 43 GP, 27 W- 9 L- 4 OT, 2.09 GAA, .914%, 4 SO

Kiprusoff is the only goalie that was not a finalist who received a first-place vote. Now...look at those numbers and tell me he was anything but the worst goalie on that list in the 07-08 season. Price and Thomas received two third-place votes each, and Osgood received one third-place vote. Tell me seriously how those three keepers weren't better than Kipper in 07-08, let alone guys like Luongo, Backstrom, and Huet. Kiprusoff finished fifth in Vezina voting based entirely on his rep.

Ryan Miller is where the biggest question is raised.

Ryan Miller 76 GP, 36 W- 27 L- 10 OT, 2.64 GAA, .906%, 3 SO

He posted a virtually identical stat line to Kiprusoff. Slightly better, in fact. How does Miller not get a single vote while Kiprusoff gets 5th place, including a first place vote? How could their performances have been so different yet yielded such identical statistics?

Miller is generally considered one of the top goalies in the league, and his performance didn't earn him a single vote. So I would have to say that would point towards the argument that Kiprusoff is heavily overrated as he received a ton of votes towards being among the best with the same kind of mediocre performance.

[Doggy 130]

If this is how you judge goalies eva, do you also think Osgood is one of the worst goalies in the league?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Pretty sure it is to discourage GMs from hiring hitmen in order to cover up their signing mistakes...

And yet Garth Snow made Yashin disappear.

[egroen 384]

If this is how you judge goalies eva, do you also think Osgood is one of the worst goalies in the league?

Are you saying he hasn't been... this year?

[OsGOD 3]

Oye.....

I will tell you one thing... LetsGoWings is good for a certain group of people.... Those afraid of change... cause you leave for a month or two and its still the same damn discussions going on as when you left.

Hahaha i love it!

You can all kiss ozzies ass once again and pretend "you were with him all along" once again when he hoists the cup over his head... thanks...good day!

[lets go pavel 2]

Kipper has not consistently played up to the level he is rated at for years. He has had maybe one game here and there where he has been really good, but his reputation has stayed as that of an elite stopper and people have acted like he is as good as or better than Brodeur even in the past couple seasons when he has not consistently played at that level and isn't at that level now.

But the big question I have is: People act like Nabokov or Kiprusoff are allowed to put up lower numbers when they play almost every game, but then when goalies like Brodeur and Backstrom play almost every game while among the league leaders in save percentage and goals against average nobody gives them a 'games played' credit. Beyond that, Osgood and guys like him has always gotten the 'good team' discredit where if he posts good stats, it doesn't count because his team is good so he obviously didn't have any effect on his own numbers.

How come some guys can post decent numbers and be Vezina finalists while other guys can post solid, but more importantly, better stats and not even get a thought for the Vezina? It doesn't make sense.

I'll point something out. Let's take a look at the 11 guys who received Vezina votes last season, and each goalie's basic stat line.

1) Martin Brodeur 77 GP, 44 W- 27 L- 6 OT, 2.17 GAA, .920%, 4 SO

2) Evgeni Nabokov 77 GP, 46 W- 21 L- 8 OT, 2.14 GAA, .910%, 6 SO

3) Henrik Lundqvist 72 GP, 37 W- 24 L- 10 OT, 2.23 GAA, .912%, 10 SO

4) Jean-Sebastien Giguere 58 GP, 35 W- 15 L- 6 OT, 2.12 GAA, .922%, 4 SO

5) Miikka Kiprusoff 76 GP, 39 W- 26 L- 10 OT, 2.69 GAA, .906%, 2 SO

6) Nicklas Backstrom 58 GP, 33 W- 13 L- 8 OT, 2.31 GAA, .920%, 4 SO

7) Roberto Luongo 73 GP, 35 W- 29 L- 9 OT, 2.38 GAA, .917%, 6 SO

8) Cristobal Huet 52 GP, 32 W- 14 L- 6 OT, 2.32 GAA, .920%, 4 SO

9) Carey Price 41 GP, 24 W- 12 L- 3 OT, 2.56 GAA, .920%, 3 SO

9) Tim Thomas 57 GP, 28 W- 19 L- 6 OT, 2.44 GAA, .921%, 3 SO

11) Chris Osgood 43 GP, 27 W- 9 L- 4 OT, 2.09 GAA, .914%, 4 SO

Kiprusoff is the only goalie that was not a finalist who received a first-place vote. Now...look at those numbers and tell me he was anything but the worst goalie on that list in the 07-08 season. Price and Thomas received two third-place votes each, and Osgood received one third-place vote. Tell me seriously how those three keepers weren't better than Kipper in 07-08, let alone guys like Luongo, Backstrom, and Huet. Kiprusoff finished fifth in Vezina voting based entirely on his rep.

Ryan Miller is where the biggest question is raised.

Ryan Miller

76 GP, 36 W- 27 L- 10 OT, 2.64 GAA, .906%, 3 SO

He posted a virtually identical stat line to Kiprusoff. Slightly better, in fact. How does Miller not get a single vote while Kiprusoff gets 5th place, including a first place vote? How could their performances have been so different yet yielded such identical statistics?

Miller is generally considered one of the top goalies in the league, and his performance didn't earn him a single vote. So I would have to say that would point towards the argument that Kiprusoff is heavily overrated as he received a ton of votes towards being among the best with the same kind of mediocre performance.

I understand what you're saying, if you go by statistics you are absolutely right, Kipper is toward the bottom of that list -- although that's not a bad list to be toward the bottom of. I think most will also concede that last year he, and the Flames, were not at the top of their game, and that is reflected statistically.

But my point is that the statistics only tell part of the story, because each of the goalies on that list play for different teams, so you can't objectively compare them simply using statistics. For example, Ozzie's save % is lower than most on that list, but he also faced significantly fewer shots per game than most of the other goalies. There's no way to know whether his save % would have gone up or down had he faced more shots, but it at least raises the question.

How many of those goalies played for defense-oriented teams or with all-star caliber defensemen? How many didn't? How many of them were in close games night-in and night-out? How many played in a lot of blowouts? How many had nagging injuries, or played healthy all year? All of these variables and more factor into a goalie's statistics, and there's no way to account for them empirically. I can't justify Kipper's Vezina votes to you, and you may be right that they were based more on reputation than performance, but I can certainly make an argument that his performance may have been better than his statistics indicate.

Let's say goaltender A faces 20 shots, allows 1 goal, and his team coasts to a 5-1 game. Goaltender B faces 40 shots, allows 4 goals, but makes a number of huge saves as his team sweaks out a 5-4 victory. Statistically goaltender A had the better night, but goaltender B may have had the better performance. I'm not saying this was Kipper's deal last year, but again, it does demonstrate the limitations of statistics.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Exactly what I posted elsewhere. Love/hate, indeed....

Wings fans love to hate him when he loses, and they hate to love him when he wins. Been that way for the past decade+.

I'm sure he's quite used to it, by now.

I'm not his biggest fan as a goaltender, but off the ice he seems like one of the best guys in the league

[Nogood 0]

Detroit goalies, lately, have had the best gig in hockey. Two Selke nominees/winners, complete puck possession and twenty shots a game. Up until this season, thats been the case for nearly a decade. The goalies deserve as much, if not more criticism then they get.

[eva unit zero 271]

I understand what you're saying, if you go by statistics you are absolutely right, Kipper is toward the bottom of that list -- although that's not a bad list to be toward the bottom of. I think most will also concede that last year he, and the Flames, were not at the top of their game, and that is reflected statistically.

But my point is that the statistics only tell part of the story, because each of the goalies on that list play for different teams, so you can't objectively compare them simply using statistics. For example, Ozzie's save % is lower than most on that list, but he also faced significantly fewer shots per game than most of the other goalies. There's no way to know whether his save % would have gone up or down had he faced more shots, but it at least raises the question.

How many of those goalies played for defense-oriented teams or with all-star caliber defensemen? How many didn't? How many of them were in close games night-in and night-out? How many played in a lot of blowouts? How many had nagging injuries, or played healthy all year? All of these variables and more factor into a goalie's statistics, and there's no way to account for them empirically. I can't justify Kipper's Vezina votes to you, and you may be right that they were based more on reputation than performance, but I can certainly make an argument that his performance may have been better than his statistics indicate.

Let's say goaltender A faces 20 shots, allows 1 goal, and his team coasts to a 5-1 game. Goaltender B faces 40 shots, allows 4 goals, but makes a number of huge saves as his team sweaks out a 5-4 victory. Statistically goaltender A had the better night, but goaltender B may have had the better performance. I'm not saying this was Kipper's deal last year, but again, it does demonstrate the limitations of statistics.

My point is that there are a lot of goalies with stats better that several guys on that list who DIDN'T get votes. Granted, the bottom four guys combined only had one second place vote and six third place votes. But why is Kiprusoff so high? In all the games I saw of the two goalies last season, which was several, Luongo outplayed him by a large margin. Luongo is also generally considered a better goalie by the media. I just don't understand how Kiprusoff ended up so high.

[lets go pavel 2]

My point is that there are a lot of goalies with stats better that several guys on that list who DIDN'T get votes. Granted, the bottom four guys combined only had one second place vote and six third place votes. But why is Kiprusoff so high? In all the games I saw of the two goalies last season, which was several, Luongo outplayed him by a large margin. Luongo is also generally considered a better goalie by the media. I just don't understand how Kiprusoff ended up so high.

I agree with you, but if you look at the votes, only the top 4 guys had more than 3 votes apiece. Kipper got a 1st and two 3rds, Luongo got a 2nd and two 3rds, so really not much of a difference. Truthfully, there's not really a meaningful difference between anyone after #4. So one sportswriter has a thing for Kipper ... probably from Calgary?

[GoWings1905 2,694]

The goalies will get better when the defense decides to show up on a nightly basis.

Otherwise, the Red Wings will be lucky to win a round in the playoffs.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Thread should be renamed to "Goalie Issues... Had to see this thread coming"