The Biggest Problem with the Defense and Osgood

[Datsyerberger 279]

Been thinking about writing this for a while, but I wanted to wait and watch a few more games to make sure I felt solid in this analysis. As has been discussed every so often here, there has been one situation in particular we've seen a lot more this year:

Opposing forwards parking in front of out netminders.

The problem is, we don't have anyone that abuses and shoves those forwards like Holmstrom receives on a regular basis, except maybe Lilja. And in general, except the occasional incident, Lilja is a cleaner physical, stay at home d-man than what we usually go up against. Think of the amount of crosschecks we usually see within a minute on Homer. Other teams know they can get away with this more often than not, and we don't do it at all.

Now, there has been another minor problem related to physicality as well. Our defense doesn't do a particularly great job of physically opposing forwards behind the net, and this enables passes across the slot that expose our netminders.

Now interestingly enough, Osgood usually makes the big saves like that, including this year. Conklin has a little harder time with those, but he does a more than adequate job for a backup.

I've said it in another thread, and I'll say it here: it's not the big stuff that's been getting by Ozzie this year. Plenty of highlight stuff out of him. It's the little things.. the ones that keep nibbling away at our leads.

Tying this all together, I think this is a problem related to screening and Osgood. Due to both a difference in playing styles and a difference in stature, Osgood does not handle screening well as compared to Conks (Osgood's what? 5'10"? Shorter than the vast majority of NHL skaters). This is resulting in a lot of screened shots from the high slot and the boards to go in on Ozzie, as well as deflections and setups from right in front of the net. The latter part of that is probably partly that Ozzie is physically less imposing than Conklin, and the aforementioned front of the net problem.

Mind you, I don't think this is the only problem with our defense (our goaltending), but I do think it is the most damaging of problems (and why Ozzie is playing like ass, or appearing to, and putting up highlight reel saves at the same time). It is a problem we clearly need to get worked out before the playoffs, whether we do a better job of clearing the net (and working behind it), Ozzie adapts to the situation, or both. Preferably both.

Thoughts?

Edited February 19, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[thedatsyukian 7]

Been thinking about writing this for a while, but I wanted to wait and watch a few more games to make sure I felt solid in this analysis. As has been discussed every so often here, there has been one situation in particular we've seen a lot more this year:

Opposing forwards parking in front of out netminders.

The problem is, we don't have anyone that abuses and shoves those forwards like Holmstrom receives on a regular basis, except maybe Lilja. And in general, except the occasional incident, Lilja is a cleaner physical, stay at home d-man than what we usually go up against. Think of the amount of crosschecks we usually see within a minute on Homer. Other teams know they can get away with this more often than not, and we don't do it at all.

Now, there has been another minor problem related to physicality as well. Our defense doesn't do a particularly great job of physically opposing forwards behind the net, and this enables passes across the slot that expose our netminders.

Now interestingly enough, Osgood usually makes the big saves like that, including this year. Conklin has a little harder time with those, but he does a more than adequate job for a backup.

I've said it in another thread, and I'll say it here: it's not the big stuff that's been getting by Ozzie this year. Plenty of highlight stuff out of him. It's the little things.. the ones that keep nibbling away at our leads.

Tying this all together, I think this is a problem related to screening and Osgood. Due to both a difference in playing styles and a difference in stature, Osgood does not handle screening well as compared to Conks (Osgood's what? 5'10"? Shorter than the vast majority of NHL skaters). This is resulting in a lot of screened shots from the high slot and the boards to go in on Ozzie, as well as deflections and setups from right in front of the net. The latter part of that is probably partly that Ozzie is physically less imposing than Conklin, and the aforementioned front of the net problem.

Mind you, I don't think this is the only problem with our defense (our goaltending), but I do think it is the most damaging of problems (and why Ozzie is playing like ass, or appearing to, and putting up highlight reel saves at the same time). It is a problem we clearly need to get worked out before the playoffs, whether we do a better job of clearing the net (and working behind it), Ozzie adapts to the situation, or both. Preferably both.

Thoughts?

I actually said something to that effect after the last ozzie loss. Agreed on all accounts.

[egroen 384]

There's a decent chance Hal Gill will be available at the deadline

[Datsyerberger 279]

There's a decent chance Hal Gill will be available at the deadline

Haha, he's one of the main people I was thinking of when I wrote this post.

Crosscheck crosscheck shove crosscheck shove shove hold crosscheck bodyslam hold crosscheck.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Interesting.

When there's a defense/goaltending thread that's nothing more than a glorified bitchfest, it goes to 10+ pages.

When it's intended to be an objective discussion with a (seemingly) valid idea, noone really gives a damn, and it goes off the main page with 3 replies in half a day.

Does nobody really have any thoughts on this?

[clutchngrab 12]

I have a few thoughts, but I'm on west coast time. Wings have focused on puck moving defensemen for a long time. Other than Lilja (who has been great this year) we have no D man that consistently blocks shots and makes life difficult for forwards down low. Stuart can as well, but has been off so far this year. Kronwall, who is mobile and can hit between the lines, isn't that great down low. Chelios used to be, but pretty much looks like a rag-doll anymore. The wings D pretty much rely on playing angles and winning stick battles instead of physical battles. They require LOTS of support from the forwards. I think the problem this year has been less about the D which has played about the same level as they have for a number of years as it is the forwards commitment to D. They all want regular season cookies so they aren't working as hard as they should on D. This team thinks more offensively than teams in the past - similar to 2002. During that season Hasek earned his coin if I recall despite some ups and downs. Unfortunately this year the goalie hasn't gotten the memo.

Edited February 20, 2009 by clutchngrab

[RusDRW 155]

I do have some thoughts but many people won't like them

I don't think our problems are related to one or another aspect of the game as you discussed. I think our players just do not give that "small extra effort" which is needed sometimes to prevent a goal. And I can easily understand them. There are a lot of games in April/May that are more important. Remeber that Zetterberg's small effort in SCP that prevented tip-in by Crosby? That is exactly what we miss right now. And it is not only about our defenseman and Ozzy - our defense starts in the offensive zone. You may argue that we do not have any problems with offese. Yes, that is right. The reason is outstanding skill we have up front. I bet Hudler would be first liner on most of the team and he is 3rd liner in Detroit. Also I think when it will matter most this team will show up.

Another reason is that still many teams use Red Wings as a measuring stick. Most of them bring their A game against us. I remeber only few times when it was different. One of those is recent game against Nashville. They did not show up and we simply outplayed them using pure skill we are loaded with. Look at them - Chicago, Nashville, Saint-Louis, Columbus, Colorado, San Jose, Anaheim, etc. all think we have a rivalrly going. The rest are saying "we have to test ourselves how good we are"... Even San Jose players think we are the best and they need their captain to remind that they are still first in the league That is exactly what success brings.

Lately we are playing much better. I think this is mainly because of that "new blood" in our roster. Leino and, especially, Helm give 100% on the ice. Did you notice how good our 3rd and 4th lines were recently?

[stormboy 47]

one thing i have noticed is our play below the goal line and behind the net has been awful this year. add to that our seeming inability to clear players from the front of the net, and it seems like any time an opposition player has the puck behind the net, it's going to result in a goal. interestingly, this has seemed to be much more the case with osgood than with conklin. i don't see any explanation for why that is, other than conks is just staying in better position on those plays to make the quick saves more just by being in the way of the puck than actually moving to make a save.

that's all impressions by me, though...i don't have any data to back it up. it just seems like, especially with ozzie, any play from behind the net results in a goal.

when ozzie's in goal, i always feel much, much, much more nervous when somebody loads up from the blueline than when conks is in net. that might have to do with your screening theory. i don't know why, but it seems like an extremely high percentage of blueline shots go in against ozzie.

but, yeah, at the same time, he does seem to make some pretty big saves. i can't forget that san jose game where he let in two back-to-back breakaways, though. it just seems like there are enough different kinds of bad goals going in against ozzie that the only encompassing theory is that he's playing poorly, though ideas like your screening theory might have some validity on that particular type of goal.

[Reds4Life 51]

No they are not linked together. Osgood sucks, Conklin doesn't. Why do you still search for all kinds of excuses for Osgood. He was incredible last year but is just brutal this season.

[Doggy 130]

Our defensive problems are pretty simple... no in-depth analysis required. I'm shocked none of these have been mentioned.

• Clearing the zone.
• Turnovers in the neutral zone.
• Turnovers in our own zone.
• Communication b/w goalie and defensemen.
• Clean, decisive passing out of our zone.
• Aggression on the PK.

When the Red Wings play without these issues, opponents don't score.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Sorry guys/gals, but I don't like to play the scapegoat game. Both Osgood has been bad this year a good bit, and the defense has been bad some, and not shockingly both have been bad at the same time at plenty portions of this season. A little bit of Column A, a little bit of Column B. And spare me the I'm an Osgood apologist or looking for excuses for him. Both him and defense have been bad plenty this year, although the defense looks to be rounding into form.

The Wings don't have a goalie that is going to steal 30 games a year for you. Just not going to happen and it isn't realistic to think it is going to happen.

If the defense ultimately shores up to a lot of its play last postseason, Osgood's numbers will go down in all likelihood. Osgood is certainly capable of reducing his numbers on his own at stretches, but I'd count on the former more than the latter.

Not to say that I have zero faith in Osgood whatsoever, far from it. Just saying that every goalie needs help from his defense every now and then, I don't care how good or bad he is.

I trust both Osgood and Conklin, have no choice to since in all likelihood these are the 2 goalies the WIngs are going to go with in the playoffs. If they are playing around the top of their game and the defense continues to improve, things will be mighty promising.

[Wombat 26]

In reading this thread, there is one question that comes to mind... how is there a big problem this year with opposing forwards parking in front of the net against this defense when it is exactly the same defense that shut everyone down last year? RusDRW I think hit it on the head. It's the little things that are missing. Stick lifts, tying up opposing sticks just outside the crease, making the smart, simple play instead of the riskier play. I don't think the Wings need someone to cross check guys in front of the crease, but what they need to do is a better job controlling what that player can and can't do.

When the skaters don't do the little things, and the goalie is not playing as well, you end up with all these extra goals allowed. That said, I think the Wings still CAN play like last year because we've seen it multiple times. 6-0 vs SJ, 4-0 vs CHI, 6-1 vs DAL, 3-1 vs BUF, 3-0 vs PIT... those are some of the games that most remind me of last year's team. They play even during the first period, and simply ratchet up the intensity and puck control as the game goes on and they just choke out the other team.

The obvious thing that sticks out to me for those particular 5 games? Conklin started 4 of them.

[eva unit zero 271]

The obvious thing that sticks out to me for those particular 5 games? Conklin started 4 of them.

Conklin started 4 of them. And there were 18 other skaters playing like the Wings of last season rather than the Wings of this season, with the huge difference in defense and controlling the game. Which is the entire point many of us have made about how the defense has played differently for Conks than Ozzie.

[Dawgs 0]

Ozzies problems are mostly of his own making. The defense could have been one of the causes early in the season but its all Ozzie now.

Clearing the front of the net hasnt been in the Wings repetoire for more than a decade.

I do see opposing forwards coming from behind the goal line way more often than in seasons past tho. The D is staying closer at home perhaps because the forwards havent been as responsible in thier own zone.

I thought giveaways were probably higher than years past, but according to the stats in another threed, turnovers are actually down.

Yes alot of the little things it takes to stop GA arent being done with as much tenacity.

They are just not aggressive enough on the penalty kill this season. They are content to stay in the box. Part of the Stanley Cup hangover thing.

Most of these problems will be fixed when the games mean more. Ozzie may be a lost cause for the remainder of this season tho. When the problems in a goalies head it usually takes an offseaon to fix. Thats why I would have put Ozzie on LTIR in December instead of waiting til its almost do or die time.

[Wombat 26]

Conklin started 4 of them. And there were 18 other skaters playing like the Wings of last season rather than the Wings of this season, with the huge difference in defense and controlling the game. Which is the entire point many of us have made about how the defense has played differently for Conks than Ozzie.

I couldn't agree more. The team defense has been better in front of Conklin than Osgood. That was what I was trying to imply... for whatever reason, Conklin starting more often leads the team to playing like last year's squad than Osgood starting. Personally I think the team has more confidence in Conklin and therefore plays a looser, stronger, puck possession game. Some might say it's coincidence.

[Sepster 0]

Which is the entire point many of us have made about how the defense has played differently for Conks than Ozzie.

I'm sorry, but this argument is just plain absurd.

Actually, it's the exact same argument that was made when Osgood split time with Vernon, when Osgood split time with Legace (Legace's numbers were better) and now when Osgood splits time with Conklin (Conklin's numbers are better).

The argument that the team doesn't have as much confidence in the "back-up" goalie so they in turn play tighter defense is rediculous. That's really been the mentality of this team for the past 13 years? I don't think so.

The reason why the defense looks confused when one goalie is in, and looks on top of things when the other is in, is because the one goalie doesn't have a clue how to control rebounds where the other does.

Osgood has been notorious throughout his career at being very poor concerning rebounds. Last year during the playoffs he somehow pulled it together and played out of his mind, "absorbing" every shot. He even mentioned that himself, that he was so focused he just absorbed everything.

Now, as before with his other goal parteners, his rebound control is non-existent and THAT is why the defense looks like its scrambling and the shots against totals have gone up. More rebounds equals more shots, equals more scrambling, equals more goals against.

Watch games when Conklin is in, he generally gives up very few second chances.

Is Conklin our answer for the playoffs? I'm concerned, I'll say that.

Is our current version of Osgood going to get us out of the first round? Not a chance.

[soultrain 43]

your totally right brotha.

[Broken 16 381]

Been thinking about writing this for a while, but I wanted to wait and watch a few more games to make sure I felt solid in this analysis. As has been discussed every so often here, there has been one situation in particular we've seen a lot more this year:

Opposing forwards parking in front of out netminders.

The problem is, we don't have anyone that abuses and shoves those forwards like Holmstrom receives on a regular basis, except maybe Lilja. And in general, except the occasional incident, Lilja is a cleaner physical, stay at home d-man than what we usually go up against. Think of the amount of crosschecks we usually see within a minute on Homer. Other teams know they can get away with this more often than not, and we don't do it at all.

Now, there has been another minor problem related to physicality as well. Our defense doesn't do a particularly great job of physically opposing forwards behind the net, and this enables passes across the slot that expose our netminders.

Now interestingly enough, Osgood usually makes the big saves like that, including this year. Conklin has a little harder time with those, but he does a more than adequate job for a backup.

I've said it in another thread, and I'll say it here: it's not the big stuff that's been getting by Ozzie this year. Plenty of highlight stuff out of him. It's the little things.. the ones that keep nibbling away at our leads.

Tying this all together, I think this is a problem related to screening and Osgood. Due to both a difference in playing styles and a difference in stature, Osgood does not handle screening well as compared to Conks (Osgood's what? 5'10"? Shorter than the vast majority of NHL skaters). This is resulting in a lot of screened shots from the high slot and the boards to go in on Ozzie, as well as deflections and setups from right in front of the net. The latter part of that is probably partly that Ozzie is physically less imposing than Conklin, and the aforementioned front of the net problem.

Mind you, I don't think this is the only problem with our defense (our goaltending), but I do think it is the most damaging of problems (and why Ozzie is playing like ass, or appearing to, and putting up highlight reel saves at the same time). It is a problem we clearly need to get worked out before the playoffs, whether we do a better job of clearing the net (and working behind it), Ozzie adapts to the situation, or both. Preferably both.

Thoughts?

Osgood sucks this year. End of story. You think too much. The simplest solution is usually the best. Osgood is unfocused and/or complacent.

As the old saying goes: Your best penalty killer should be your goaltender.

Look at our PK... 'nuff said.

[lets go pavel 2]

I think trying to pinpoint one thing that the defense or goalie is doing to cause the "problem" is pointless. Everything that has been mentioned here has happened at some point. The defense has made Osgood look worse by giving up too many quality scoring chances (caused by many of the things listed in previous posts), and Ozzie has made the defense look worse by allowing most of the scoring chances to get by him. I think the bottom line is that they have their own problems that have nothing to do with each other, and they need to get them fixed. The defense seems to be improving, hopefully Ozzie will do the same.

[boomer 0]

I'm sorry, but this argument is just plain absurd.

Actually, it's the exact same argument that was made when Osgood split time with Vernon, when Osgood split time with Legace (Legace's numbers were better) and now when Osgood splits time with Conklin (Conklin's numbers are better).

The argument that the team doesn't have as much confidence in the "back-up" goalie so they in turn play tighter defense is rediculous. That's really been the mentality of this team for the past 13 years? I don't think so.

The reason why the defense looks confused when one goalie is in, and looks on top of things when the other is in, is because the one goalie doesn't have a clue how to control rebounds where the other does.

Osgood has been notorious throughout his career at being very poor concerning rebounds. Last year during the playoffs he somehow pulled it together and played out of his mind, "absorbing" every shot. He even mentioned that himself, that he was so focused he just absorbed everything.

Now, as before with his other goal parteners, his rebound control is non-existent and THAT is why the defense looks like its scrambling and the shots against totals have gone up. More rebounds equals more shots, equals more scrambling, equals more goals against.

Watch games when Conklin is in, he generally gives up very few second chances.

Is Conklin our answer for the playoffs? I'm concerned, I'll say that.

Is our current version of Osgood going to get us out of the first round? Not a chance.

[boomer 0]

Just to tell you Kari Lehtonen from the Thrashers is officially on the trading block.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Just to tell you Kari Lehtonen from the Thrashers is officially on the trading block.

Never say never, but Holland stated he's not on the market for a goalie at the trade deadline. It's slim/none that it is going to be anybody different than Osgood/Conklin in the playoffs, barring injury of course.

[Superman54 91]

I think its very unlikely that we will see a goalie heading our way before the deadline. Conklin had done everything we have asked from him, and Ozzie is just too close to the organization to be shipped away. Hopefully Howard playing tommorow is a wake up call, and gets Ozzie's ass back on gear. I'll be honest, my confidence with Ozzie in net has faulted quite drastically, but I still believe he can prove himself in 2008 form. Sure the bounces haven't gone right, and the defense maybe below par, but the guy has got to admit too himself that his play is unacceptable. Excuses only go so far...

[clutchngrab 12]

I'm sorry, but this argument is just plain absurd.

Actually, it's the exact same argument that was made when Osgood split time with Vernon, when Osgood split time with Legace (Legace's numbers were better) and now when Osgood splits time with Conklin (Conklin's numbers are better).

The argument that the team doesn't have as much confidence in the "back-up" goalie so they in turn play tighter defense is rediculous. That's really been the mentality of this team for the past 13 years? I don't think so.

The reason why the defense looks confused when one goalie is in, and looks on top of things when the other is in, is because the one goalie doesn't have a clue how to control rebounds where the other does.

Osgood has been notorious throughout his career at being very poor concerning rebounds. Last year during the playoffs he somehow pulled it together and played out of his mind, "absorbing" every shot. He even mentioned that himself, that he was so focused he just absorbed everything.

Now, as before with his other goal parteners, his rebound control is non-existent and THAT is why the defense looks like its scrambling and the shots against totals have gone up. More rebounds equals more shots, equals more scrambling, equals more goals against.

Watch games when Conklin is in, he generally gives up very few second chances.

Is Conklin our answer for the playoffs? I'm concerned, I'll say that.

Is our current version of Osgood going to get us out of the first round? Not a chance.

Spot on - it's totally about the rebounds - especially since the "new" NHL and our lack of physical D since even before the Vlady days. That means rebounds = great chances

[TheOwl 77]

Small goalies suck, no one under 6'1.