Ericsson/Downey Up; Helm/Leino to GR

[jvxp 0]

Well, I use to play hockey... And yes i watch about 200 games a year, and try to catch 5 Wings games in person, and 10 to 20 Griffins games a year.

(just to show you what i mean by 200, all 82 wings games+playoffs, + all the san jose, boston, dallas and montreal games i can get, and WMU Broncos and other college games)

I don't believe you...but oh well that's fine.

[jvxp 0]

That is a funny video!!!!

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Downey dressed for 56 games last year and the Red Wings won the President's Trophy. This year, his roster spot - or, more accurately, the spot that a rotating platoon of Downey, Drake and McCarty filled last season - has been replaced by Marian Hossa. That's right; Marian Freakin' Hossa. And they're probably not going to win the President's Trophy this season. <snip>

I get what you're aiming for, that the team easily won the President's Trophy last season even with a "good for nothing" (detractor's words, not mine) Aaron Downey in the lineup. But that doesn't validate his having a roster spot any more than it does Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Lidstrom. We all watch the games, we can determine the play of these guys based on their own merits.

I know a lot of people say "Downey could contribute more than Kopecky," and I don't argue that -- though as a digression I'll say Kopecky's played a whole heck of a lot better recently, and his GWG against LA is at least one point in the standings we might not have had otherwise -- to me that feels more like an argument against Tomas Kopecky than it does for Downey.

If we had Helm and Leino up full time and Kopecky wasn't around anymore, what you say to sending one of them down in favor Downey? Yeah, he brings something they don't, but that doesn't necessarily mean he contributes more to the team. I'm not reaching for any judgments here, I'm just posing the question.

And perhaps more to an overarching point, the 5-10 minutes of play by any 4th liner of your choosing does not win or lose the Red Wings the President's Trophy. There are far, far too many variables in play, many of considerably more significance that Downey or Kopecky or Leino.

[uk_redwing 495]

And perhaps more to an overarching point, the 5-10 minutes of play by any 4th liner of your choosing does not win or lose the Red Wings the President's Trophy.

I think what we're getting at, is our current 4th liners might not get enough ice time to make a huge difference, but for Downey its almost as much about what he does off the ice as well as on it.

Against St Louis tomorrow when Downey's in you can bet your ass the entire team is going to be hitting and grinding like nobody's business

[Shaman 713]

I get what you're aiming for, that the team easily won the President's Trophy last season even with a "good for nothing" (detractor's words, not mine) Aaron Downey in the lineup. But that doesn't validate his having a roster spot any more than it does Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Lidstrom. We all watch the games, we can determine the play of these guys based on their own merits.

I know a lot of people say "Downey could contribute more than Kopecky," and I don't argue that -- though as a digression I'll say Kopecky's played a whole heck of a lot better recently, and his GWG against LA is at least one point in the standings we might not have had otherwise -- to me that feels more like an argument against Tomas Kopecky than it does for Downey.

If we had Helm and Leino up full time and Kopecky wasn't around anymore, what you say to sending one of them down in favor Downey? Yeah, he brings something they don't, but that doesn't necessarily mean he contributes more to the team. I'm not reaching for any judgments here, I'm just posing the question.

And perhaps more to an overarching point, the 5-10 minutes of play by any 4th liner of your choosing does not win or lose the Red Wings the President's Trophy. There are far, far too many variables in play, many of considerably more significance that Downey or Kopecky or Leino.

Its too bad that Leino has more points in 11 games then Downey in the last 3 seasons...Personally Ive been talking mostly out of being pissed off about Leino going down to GR

[BlueMonk 102]

I get what you're aiming for, that the team easily won the President's Trophy last season even with a "good for nothing" (detractor's words, not mine) Aaron Downey in the lineup. But that doesn't validate his having a roster spot any more than it does Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Lidstrom. We all watch the games, we can determine the play of these guys based on their own merits.

This is definitely part of what I'm saying.

The other thing is, the team has played differently this year despite minimal turnover. Less physical, much worse team defense. A team's mindset is hugely important, and a good roster with the right components and chemistry are what ultimately is decisive in this league. Just adding a more talented piece is not enough. Look at the Stars pre-Avery and post-Avery; they certainly haven't gotten more talented, but they're winning now.

It's not all about scoring. If you have a guy who fits in well and serves a role, that's worth something. If his presence makes everyone else play an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier, that's worth something. Maybe having a tough guy in the lineup didn't make them better, but it certainly didn't seem to make them worse.

Meanwhile, we get hockey fights! Which I have never shied away from admitting I love.

[waitahochiminute 2]

This should be real insteresting

I really wanna see Ericsson play, we need defense right now

I would much rather see Abdelkader play than Downey

It should give Holmstrom plenty of time to get ready for the playoffs

[norrisnick 1]

I think what we're getting at, is our current 4th liners might not get enough ice time to make a huge difference, but for Downey its almost as much about what he does off the ice as well as on it.

Against St Louis tomorrow when Downey's in you can bet your ass the entire team is going to be hitting and grinding like nobody's business

And it will have exactly nothing to do with Downey and entirely everything to do with giving a full on s***-on-a-stick effort the previous outing where they were embarassed 8-0 by a non-playoff team.

This team is predictable. Great effort one night. Refuse to show up the following. Get chewed out, and show up the next. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[ben_usmc 253]

Well I hope Downey realizes this time what he is being brought up to do, be our enforcer. I also hope Big Rig knows if he wants a chance of seeing the playoffs he needs to clearing the crease and playing like that mean dman we've all been asking for.

[uk_redwing 495]

And it will have exactly nothing to do with Downey and entirely everything to do with giving a full on s***-on-a-stick effort the previous outing where they were embarassed 8-0 by a non-playoff team.

If thats the case, please explain why the team showed so much more energy and willingness to hit when Downey was in the line-up against Dallas?

And explain the improved physicality the team showed last season that seems to have dissapeared this season without Downey? (except the Dallas game of course)

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Its too bad that Leino has more points in 11 games then Downey in the last 3 seasons...Personally Ive been talking mostly out of being pissed off about Leino going down to GR

So because some euro who you happen to like got sent down, you wind up posting nonsense about Downey being a goon who is completely useless.

Why do you think they called him up if he's such a bum?

Get over your man-crush on Leino. He'll probably be back in no time.

[Shaman 713]

So because some euro who you happen to like got sent down, you wind up posting nonsense about Downey being a goon who is completely useless.

Why do you think they called him up if he's such a bum?

Get over your man-crush on Leino. He'll probably be back in no time.

Id be pissed if he was a Canadian, American, or even from the south pole, the kid is exciting to watch

[uk_redwing 495]

like that mean dman we've all been asking for.

You called?

[norrisnick 1]

If thats the case, please explain why the team showed so much more energy and willingness to hit when Downey was in the line-up against Dallas?

And explain the improved physicality the team showed last season that seems to have dissapeared this season without Downey? (except the Dallas game of course)

Was he in the lineup against San Jose last week?

They wanted to work because they had something to prove. Being the Cup Champs greatly lessens the "something to prove" factor. Cup Hangover is alive and well.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Preemptive apology here. This is gonna be kinda long.

The other thing is, the team has played differently this year despite minimal turnover. Less physical, much worse team defense. A team's mindset is hugely important, and a good roster with the right components and chemistry are what ultimately is decisive in this league. Just adding a more talented piece is not enough.

It's not all about scoring. If you have a guy who fits in well and serves a role, that's worth something. If his presence makes everyone else play an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier, that's worth something.

Here's the thing, the things you're saying in that second paragraph are implicit in the first. Have the Wings been less physical and had worse team defense and a poorer mindset because of any one guy being or not being in the lineup? No. To me, it stinks of Stanley Cup hangover segwaying nicely into regular season boredom. The Wings played pretty big and tough against the Sharks, wouldn't you agree? They did a number on the Pens before that, and the Hawks before that.

I'm not saying, and have never said, that Downey couldn't help the team. Hell, he already helped the team in his only game this year. But it's very easy to take these notions of toughness and run with them well beyond the point of reason. Does one player really alter the whole team's mindset? They were capable of performing tough without that player, or one like him, in the examples I gave.

A player can lift the team, and a player can fundamentally alter a team's mindset -- we've seen both, it can even be from an enforcer; but it doesn't look to me at all like Aaron Downey is the latter. The team doesn't need him to play hard nosed hockey. He might help them to do that, on occasion, but the rest of the gang can absolutely do it on their own.

If all of the above is a given (and I'm sure there are some that disagree), then it becomes easier for us to decide who has what value to the team.

Look at the Stars pre-Avery and post-Avery; they certainly haven't gotten more talented, but they're winning now.

One bad apple spoils the whole bunch... Point made, but in context it doesn't apply to the Wings' fourth line conundrum.

Maybe having a tough guy in the lineup didn't make them better, but it certainly didn't seem to make them worse.

Which is great and all, but not any reason to keep him around vs. another jobber then, eh?

Meanwhile, we get hockey fights! Which I have never shied away from admitting I love.

Hey man, no argument here.

[uk_redwing 495]

Was he in the lineup against San Jose last week?

They wanted to work because they had something to prove. Being the Cup Champs greatly lessens the "something to prove" factor. Cup Hangover is alive and well.

Wernt you that guy that came over to hockeyfights.com and started posing for some reason?

[norrisnick 1]

Wernt you that guy that came over to hockeyfights.com and started posing for some reason?

I'm pretty sure I haven't posted there in over a year, though I may be mistaken by a month or two.

[uk_redwing 495]

I'm pretty sure I haven't posted there in over a year, though I may be mistaken by a month or two.

It may have been a while ago...fun times eh?

[norrisnick 1]

Apparently, if you remember it. I like a hockey fight as much as the next guy. But the fighter better be able to play hockey. The ability to play trumps anything else.

[sureWhyNot 19]

I'm going to go ahead and leave your section bolded for you and respond to that. You claimed earlier that you have a plethora of hockey knowledge, which I'm not here to argue, however you do have quite a disconnect with what teams are supposed to get production wise out of their 4th line players. 4th line players are their to bump, hit, grind, and be responsible defensively while chipping in with the occasional goal or fight if necessary. I'd love to come to your fantasy world were every 4th liner is getting 40 points a season .

The section you highlighted was from a post which was made by an individual that I has managed to show what little he knows about the Red Wings -- period. This guy is posting GARBAGE that deserves no recognition what so ever.

He claimed that he wanted a guy like McCarty who in 97-00 would get into scraps and score 40 points a season. First of all McCarty had one year with with over 40 points total (96-97 he had 49) and one season with exactly 40 points (98-99).

1993-94: 26 points

1994-95: 13 points

1995-96: 29 points

1996-97: 49 points

1997-98: 37 points

1998-99: 40 points

1999-00: 12 points

2000-01: 22 points

2001-02: 12 points

2002-03: 22 points

2003-04: 11 points

Now, with this established (his point totals in his first stint as a Red Wing) I think it is also very important to look at the years where McCarty was most productive (that being 96-97, 97-98 and 98-99) and the general makeup of the Red Wings roster. You will find that during these years, the Red Wings dressed a handful of guys that chipped in on the enforcing/grit front -- more or less, McCarty wasn't the only one there to do it, thus allowing him to focus also on his overall play and not just policing for his teammates. Here are the FM totals, and the names of the grinders Detroit employed in the lineup during the years McCarty was at his offensive best:

In 1996-97 the Red Wings had a total of 62 fighting majors total. Pushor had 13, McCarty 10, Lapointe 10, Shanny 9, Konstantinov 5, Kocur 4, Ward with 3, Maltby with 2 and then a handful of guys with one.)

In 1997-98 the Red Wings had a total of 34 fighting majors. McCarty had 11, Pushor with 5, Kocur with 5, Shanahan with 4, Maltby with 3, Lapointe with 2 and then a handful of guys with 1 FM.

In 1998-99 the Red Wings had a total of 27 fighting majors. McCarty had 9, Kocur had 6, Lapoint/Shanny had 4 a piece, then a handful of guys had one.

So while McCarty without a doubt was the guy fighting most, he wasn't the only guy willing to do so. In fact you have to believe that the fact we had Kocur in the lineup did some enforcing on it's own. All I am saying is that you can not expect a guy to be the sole tough guy and expect 40 point seasons from him -- that simply isn't going to happen.

There are plenty of guys out there who can put up points and who are willing the drop them when needed -- look no further then Chicago. Ben Eager finally got the chance to play some minutes and he is putting up pretty good numbers (10 goals & 4 assists with 9 FM). Then there are guys like Aaron Asham (5 goals, 7 assists & 15 FM this year) who has had a couple years with numbers comparable to McCarty in his prime (34 pts in 02-03, 24 in 03-04, 24 in 05-06 and 23 in 06-07. All with the league worst Islanders mind you), then there's BJ Crombeen (10 goals, 6 assists & 18 FM), David Clarkson (14 goals, 13 assists & 16 FM), Steve Montador (4 goals, 17 assists & 11 FM), etc, etc, etc. The list really goes on and on and on -- all guys who have the snarl we would like and put up numbers. The best thing about them is that they are all making close to league minimum.

Another guy that fits the bill in terms of reflecting McCarty is Chris Neil. He is struggling this year, but the same can be said with the team he is playing on overall. He could be had cheap -- will we get him? Probably not.

I am fine with people who are honest and come out and say they don't think there is room for an enforcer in this lineup. That is completely fine, and that is there opinion. But I am sick of people saying that they want guys who will fight and put up points like McCarty did -- Those guys are available every frigging year and could be had for dirt cheap yet people never seem to realize it. I remember two off seasons ago I mentioned wanting to pick up Asham, it was during the off season and we could had him fir 500k a year -- I was absolutely panned by the other posters, ripped per say for such an "idiotic" idea.

The argument of wanting guys like McCarty in their prime are made by those who simply need to clutch onto something in their decent of dressing guys like Downey. But truth be told, these same guys never seem to chirp about wanting guys who play a hard nosed, fighting is always an option type of game when it matters. They simply toss it out there when it's convenient to their narrow and naive argument -- like in this case, in an argument against dressing Downey (even when you have Hossa fighting and Lilja getting knocked out.) After the Nashville game I really don't think there is a worse possible outcome in regards to getting beat -- Meech was a -5, Stuart a -4, and Helm as well as a whole bunch of others a -2. With that said, I do not think having Downey would have changed the outcome, I want to make that clear. But I definitely do not think the addition of him could possibly have a worse effect then what we saw with a lineup of guys who play a rather soft style of hockey.

Its too bad that Leino has more points in 11 games then Downey in the last 3 seasons...Personally Ive been talking mostly out of being pissed off about Leino going down to GR

Welcome to the club of being pissed off. I have been pissed off that Kopecky is in the lineup nearly every night, I am not happy with Flip's contract size and then his complete inability to put the puck in the net, I am pissed that guys like Hossa are forced to fight, I am pissed that Lilja is forced to drop the gloves only to get knocked out in an 8-0 rout to the 27th best offense in the league.

Everyone who posts on this board could list a plethora of things or instances that piss them off -- so what. Leino will be gone for a couple of games max, deal with it. The same goes with Helm and his 0 goals, 1 assist and -1 -- he will be back soon.

If you are this pissed over Downey's call up I can only imagine what you would go through if the team tried this again (see video below). God knows the horrid consequences that decision made on the overall success of the team:

[Rivalred 630]

Good ole Vladdy... Man could play D, hit, fight, score, and pass.

Hurry back Leino!

Edited March 3, 2009 by Rivalred

[jjd06e 10]

to those saying that we cant win the cup without the likes of Downey, how many games did he play in the playoffs?

[uk_redwing 495]

to those saying that we cant win the cup without the likes of Downey, how many games did he play in the playoffs?

Im bored of people posting this sort of trash.

[sureWhyNot 19]

to those saying that we cant win the cup without the likes of Downey, how many games did he play in the playoffs?

There is not a single person who believes that -- you know that, and yet you still ask it. You are not witty my friend, and in fact you come across more like an idiot then anything else.

But on the topic of questions -- I have one. When is the last time we won a cup without dressing a guy with at least 5 fighting majors? Can you answer me that one since assinine questions seem to be your thing and all.

Edited March 3, 2009 by sureWhyNot

[Doggy 130]

Again, not a Downey hater at all. But I can't find a boxscore to confirm. Didn't we lose to Dallas in the game we played? Easily? At home?

I must be mistaken because everyone keeps saying he helped us that game but I could've sworn it didn't go well for us.