is franzen special?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Yes

[norrisnick 1]

Most people on here are expecting Franzen to get $4m. It's quite possible Hossa could get $6m. At best, Franzen is Hossa's equal defensively and as far as goal scoring. Franzen is much more injury prone, he is a terrible playmaker while Hossa is a good playmaker.

And no, Franzen is not as good a goal scorer as Zetterberg, Datsyuk, or Hossa. Why do I say this? Because if all four players have similar goal-scoring numbers, and Franzen can do NOTHING but score goals while the other three all can do and are used in other roles, then Franzen being an equal goal scorer should mean he would have more goals scored now due to his limited focus.

I expect the Wings to sign Hossa for about $6m per year, and to give Kopecky and Leino chances to prove themselves in Franzen's slot after Franzen signs away as a UFA for a deal that is $4.5m or $5m per year or more.

The bolded section doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

[eva unit zero 271]

The bolded section doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

The point was that a player who has many talents will likely score fewer goals for the same talent level than a player whose only ability is goal scoring, because instead of always thinking "score" he will be looking at the ice much differently. Wouldn't you agree?

[titanium2 867]

The point was that a player who has many talents will likely score fewer goals for the same talent level than a player whose only ability is goal scoring, because instead of always thinking "score" he will be looking at the ice much differently. Wouldn't you agree?

I think I see what you're getting at. If Zetterberg played on Pavel's wing for an entire season he'd probably be top five in the scoring race.

I agree that Franzen is an average passer and that Hossa is one step ahead in that department. That alone is the reason as to why Franzen doesn't rack up the points as much as those who lead the Wings in point totals. But when it comes to simple goal scoring/finishing/getting open, he's as good a player as they have. You could argue that he has the best shot among the forwards.

However, I think Franzen is better overall defensively than Hossa. Hossa is superb at backchecking because of his great skating ability. We see him skate like a mad man and wreak havoc on the blue line, and it is always impressive. However, what if they already get the puck deep in the zone? When it comes to positioning and anticipating defensively, I think Franzen is one step ahead of Hossa, which may be due to the fact that Franzen's been a checker for almost as long as he's played hockey.

[eva unit zero 271]

I think I see what you're getting at. If Zetterberg played on Pavel's wing for an entire season he'd probably be top five in the scoring race.

I agree that Franzen is an average passer and that Hossa is one step ahead in that department. That alone is the reason as to why Franzen doesn't rack up the points as much as those who lead the Wings in point totals. But when it comes to simple goal scoring/finishing/getting open, he's as good a player as they have. You could argue that he has the best shot among the forwards.

However, I think Franzen is better overall defensively than Hossa. Hossa is superb at backchecking because of his great skating ability. We see him skate like a mad man and wreak havoc on the blue line, and it is always impressive. However, what if they already get the puck deep in the zone? When it comes to positioning and anticipating defensively, I think Franzen is one step ahead of Hossa, which may be due to the fact that Franzen's been a checker for almost as long as he's played hockey.

Franzen has also made some pretty significant defensive errors the last few seasons...he's certainly far from perfect defensively.

[norrisnick 1]

The point was that a player who has many talents will likely score fewer goals for the same talent level than a player whose only ability is goal scoring, because instead of always thinking "score" he will be looking at the ice much differently. Wouldn't you agree?

No. And I don't agree that scoring goals is Franzen's only conscious effort out there.

[Opie 308]

Do any of the season's awards go march to march?

I never said he wasn't going to be special or that you couldn't call him whatever the hell you want.

In my opinion, he is not special. A special hockey player is some one like Dats, Hossa, Malkin, AO etc..

Does Mule do some things that are special, sure.

Some one made the Penner comparison, if Mule gets paid next year and becomes Penner will you stand by your claim he is Special?

If he turns out to be an amazing all world talent great, I never said he couldn't, all I am saying is that one year does not make him special, hence the Jim Carey reference.

My definition of a special hockey player is different than yours.

Look at my post on page 1, look at he things Dats and Hossa did in their first for years, those are special players. Mule is a .5ppg player, this year he has increased that to .8. Again he is improving and could become a great player, but he is going to be 30 soon, athletes start to decline in their early-mid 30's, that is why age with Mule matters.

Some key points I have made so far:

- Mule has played one season over 72 games, Hossa has never played less than 80.

- Mule after 4 years is a .5 ppg player, Dats after 4 years was .84, and Hossa was .75, Zetterberg was .85,

-In Dats 4th year he hit 87 points, and people on here thought he was going to be a bust and that he was getting over paid, lets not change our definition of Special because we like Mule's size. (not you NN but you get the point) Mules 4th year he could if he gets hot reach 60 pts, but he would need 12 points in 11 games. Not impossible by any means but 60 points, Malkin already has 102 this year, note: Malkin is special!

- Zach Parise is a .76 PPG player in the same span as Mule. This year alone Parise has 44 goals and 41 assists for 85 points and besides his rookie campaign has never tallied less than 60 points.

-Was Sammy's 05-06 season special? 71 games 23 goals 22 assists 45 points, Mule last year in 72 games had very similar numbers, and Sammy gets about the same numbers every year.

Again, I am not saying he is not good, actually in this thread I have listed many things I think he does well, however imo he is not yet a special hockey player YET. He does a few things that are special, but overall he is a very good NHL talent and should continue to get better the next 3-5 year. Hope he is a wing when he becomes special.

[egroen 384]

Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk and even Hudler can all create scoring chances for themselves. While Franzen is better at creating chances for himself than say, Holmstrom, he still needs most of his goals served on a platter for him. Franzen needs to play with a legitimate first tier playmaker or he is not going to be scoring.

He is not an "ok" passer, he is a pretty bad passer, at least on this team.

With the proper linemates he can be a goal-scoring machine though, and that is special. I am still dieing to see Franzen, Hudler and Hossa on one line -- I feel like that line could score goals in buckets.

[norrisnick 1]

Do any of the season's awards go march to march?

I never said he wasn't going to be special or that you couldn't call him whatever the hell you want.

In my opinion, he is not special. A special hockey player is some one like Dats, Hossa, Malkin, AO etc..

Does Mule do some things that are special, sure.

Some one made the Penner comparison, if Mule gets paid next year and becomes Penner will you stand by your claim he is Special?

If he turns out to be an amazing all world talent great, I never said he couldn't, all I am saying is that one year does not make him special, hence the Jim Carey reference.

My definition of a special hockey player is different than yours.

Look at my post on page 1, look at he things Dats and Hossa did in their first for years, those are special players. Mule is a .5ppg player, this year he has increased that to .8. Again he is improving and could become a great player, but he is going to be 30 soon, athletes start to decline in their early-mid 30's, that is why age with Mule matters.

Some key points I have made so far:

- Mule has played one season over 72 games, Hossa has never played less than 80.

- Mule after 4 years is a .5 ppg player, Dats after 4 years was .84, and Hossa was .75, Zetterberg was .85,

-In Dats 4th year he hit 87 points, and people on here thought he was going to be a bust and that he was getting over paid, lets not change our definition of Special because we like Mule's size. (not you NN but you get the point) Mules 4th year he could if he gets hot reach 60 pts, but he would need 12 points in 11 games. Not impossible by any means but 60 points, Malkin already has 102 this year, note: Malkin is special!

- Zach Parise is a .76 PPG player in the same span as Mule. This year alone Parise has 44 goals and 41 assists for 85 points and besides his rookie campaign has never tallied less than 60 points.

-Was Sammy's 05-06 season special? 71 games 23 goals 22 assists 45 points, Mule last year in 72 games had very similar numbers, and Sammy gets about the same numbers every year.

Again, I am not saying he is not good, actually in this thread I have listed many things I think he does well, however imo he is not yet a special hockey player YET. He does a few things that are special, but overall he is a very good NHL talent and should continue to get better the next 3-5 year. Hope he is a wing when he becomes special.

Read the first post. You're flying off on a tangent that wasn't even hinted at.

[titanium2 867]

I am still dieing to see Franzen, Hudler and Hossa on one line -- I feel like that line could score goals in buckets.

Hasn't that line been the second power play unit when Datsyuk and Zetterberg are together on the first?

[Opie 308]

Read the first post. You're flying off on a tangent that wasn't even hinted at.

I'm sorry what in the hell are you referencing as the tangent, are you referring to the OP or your first post.

Either way the OP asked if what Mule was doing is special, no there have been plenty of late bloomers in the NHL, and he has done some special things, but in my opinion is not a special hockey player, what is your point?

So you are saying that putting two seasons worth or work in which you pick which games to use and not use is the equivalent of a season, did you have Eva write that post for you.

Show me ONE SEASON, not one season's equivalent of games, on season's worth of stats that make him special, one season's.

Just one like Zach Parise's season, or dats fourth season or Hossa's fourth season, or anything remotely close to what Malkin did this year, go ahead I will wait.

[OsGOD 3]

.....ed

he is good and all, but I think Sir Dallas Drake was more special

[norrisnick 1]

I'm sorry what in the hell are you referencing as the tangent, are you referring to the OP or your first post.

Either way the OP asked if what Mule was doing is special, no there have been plenty of late bloomers in the NHL, and he has done some special things, but in my opinion is not a special hockey player, what is your point?

So you are saying that putting two seasons worth or work in which you pick which games to use and not use is the equivalent of a season, did you have Eva write that post for you.

Show me ONE SEASON, not one season's equivalent of games, on season's worth of stats that make him special, one season's.

Just one like Zach Parise's season, or dats fourth season or Hossa's fourth season, or anything remotely close to what Malkin did this year, go ahead I will wait.

The tangent being that people are arguing that Franzen is a special player. The only argument made and the intent of the thread was to establish whether or not the meteoric rise of Franzen's goalscoring prowess is a special case. And it is. Name one player that has bloomed as late and as spectacularly as Franzen has.

Why one season? What is the significance of 82 games from October to April that somehow isn't present in 90-some games from March to March? There is none. It's arbitrary nonsense. Even then he's scored 30 this season. After missing 10 games to injury, with 10 games left to play. That's a top shelf goalscoring rate from a guy that scored 10 in a checking line role two seasons ago. But I guess I've missed the dozens of grinders that turn into 30-40 goal scorers at the drop of a hat.

[eva unit zero 271]

The tangent being that people are arguing that Franzen is a special player. The only argument made and the intent of the thread was to establish whether or not the meteoric rise of Franzen's goalscoring prowess is a special case. And it is. Name one player that has bloomed as late and as spectacularly as Franzen has.

Why one season? What is the significance of 82 games from October to April that somehow isn't present in 90-some games from March to March? There is none. It's arbitrary nonsense. Even then he's scored 30 this season. After missing 10 games to injury, with 10 games left to play. That's a top shelf goalscoring rate from a guy that scored 10 in a checking line role two seasons ago. But I guess I've missed the dozens of grinders that turn into 30-40 goal scorers at the drop of a hat.

Well, if Kopecky is given the same kind of second line time with power play time (in Franzen's "breakout year he played 2:49 per game on the PP") he could replicate Franzen's sudden change, as Kopecky's production this year is very similar to Franzen's ten goal season after adjusting for ice time (Kopecky is on pace to finish with ten goals with about as much total ice time played as Franzen had) and Kopecky is the same age as Franzen was then. Couple that with the fact that Franzen is likely to leave in the offseason...I say next season's second line should be either Hudler/Zetterberg/Kopecky or Hudler/Kopecky/Hossa. Either way, Kopecky should be reliable for a good level of production.

[eva unit zero 271]

Hossa, Zetterberg, Datsyuk and even Hudler can all create scoring chances for themselves. While Franzen is better at creating chances for himself than say, Holmstrom, he still needs most of his goals served on a platter for him. Franzen needs to play with a legitimate first tier playmaker or he is not going to be scoring.

He is not an "ok" passer, he is a pretty bad passer, at least on this team.

With the proper linemates he can be a goal-scoring machine though, and that is special. I am still dieing to see Franzen, Hudler and Hossa on one line -- I feel like that line could score goals in buckets.

Someone you left out of your list of people who can create scoring chances for themselves; Mikael Samuelsson.

[norrisnick 1]

Well, if Kopecky is given the same kind of second line time with power play time (in Franzen's "breakout year he played 2:49 per game on the PP") he could replicate Franzen's sudden change, as Kopecky's production this year is very similar to Franzen's ten goal season after adjusting for ice time (Kopecky is on pace to finish with ten goals with about as much total ice time played as Franzen had) and Kopecky is the same age as Franzen was then. Couple that with the fact that Franzen is likely to leave in the offseason...I say next season's second line should be either Hudler/Zetterberg/Kopecky or Hudler/Kopecky/Hossa. Either way, Kopecky should be reliable for a good level of production.

Franzen is exponentially stronger on the puck than Kopecky. Kop is too slight and easily knocked around. He can't bull the puck through traffic like Franzen can. Nor are his hands anywhere near Franzen's. Kop might work his way up to 15-20G 30-40P seasons, but he's not going to score goals like Franzen.

Franzen isn't any more likely to leave than Hossa is, and Kop might follow Marian to meet up with the other Marian wherever he goes.

[dawings1905 2]

Most people on here are expecting Franzen to get $4m. It's quite possible Hossa could get $6m. At best, Franzen is Hossa's equal defensively and as far as goal scoring. Franzen is much more injury prone, he is a terrible playmaker while Hossa is a good playmaker.

And no, Franzen is not as good a goal scorer as Zetterberg, Datsyuk, or Hossa. Why do I say this? Because if all four players have similar goal-scoring numbers, and Franzen can do NOTHING but score goals while the other three all can do and are used in other roles, then Franzen being an equal goal scorer should mean he would have more goals scored now due to his limited focus.

I expect the Wings to sign Hossa for about $6m per year, and to give Kopecky and Leino chances to prove themselves in Franzen's slot after Franzen signs away as a UFA for a deal that is $4.5m or $5m per year or more.

Yeah, and you were probably one of the ones saying that you would take Huds over the Mule. Tell me again, how is Huds doing this month? Just sayin.... Everyone wanted to Bash Mule earlier in the season for having somewhat of a slump. Around that time everyone wanted Huds (They playmaker, which we don't have many of) over Franzen (The power Forward, that we have tons of)LOL. So if Franzen was going through a slump, then Huds is in a serious drought. Not saying he is, just making a comparison in those terms of thinking. I think Franzen has proven which one is more valuable to the team. I would be curious as to what Huds and Franzens PPG were now? I wish we could keep them all, and I like Huds. Just think the thought that he is more valuabe than Franzen is a little shaky.

[BuckeyeWingsfan80 209]

Is the Mule a good player? Certainly. There are 29 other teams in the NHL that would take him in a heartbeat and put him on their first line.

Is the Mule a great player? Depends on your definition of great and if you think he'll be as good or better in a system other than Detroits'.

Personally, I think he's a good player with decent scoring ability who can handle himself on the defensive end. I don't, however, think he'll be as good on the offensive end without a couple of Hall of Famers in Lids, Datsyuk and Hank feeding him the puck. I could be proven wrong, but I think he's as much of a product of the system as his skills add up to him being "great"....

For all that, I'd like him to remain a Red Wing, but if it came down to him and Hossa (who is special in my opinion), I'd take Hossa 100 times out of 100.

[Dabura 12,232]

I agree that Franzen is an average passer and that Hossa is one step ahead in that department. That alone is the reason as to why Franzen doesn't rack up the points as much as those who lead the Wings in point totals.

Hossa's simply more talented -- and that applies to his defensive game as well. And don't forget: Mule has more experience with the Wing's system.

[Doggy 130]

Well, if Kopecky is given the same kind of second line time with power play time (in Franzen's "breakout year he played 2:49 per game on the PP") he could replicate Franzen's sudden change, as Kopecky's production this year is very similar to Franzen's ten goal season after adjusting for ice time (Kopecky is on pace to finish with ten goals with about as much total ice time played as Franzen had) and Kopecky is the same age as Franzen was then. Couple that with the fact that Franzen is likely to leave in the offseason...I say next season's second line should be either Hudler/Zetterberg/Kopecky or Hudler/Kopecky/Hossa. Either way, Kopecky should be reliable for a good level of production.

Only eva could be asked, "Name one player that has bloomed as late and as spectacularly as Franzen has." and answer with some diatribe about a completely unrelated players possible linemates next season and imply exaggerated, unrealistic projections of his future.

Your segues are about as natural as an elephant banging a cat.

[The Secret 304]

Here is Johan's "special chicken dance" that I was referring to earlier.

Youtube

Hahaha, you are right that was special. It was the Popeye corkscrew punch to the back of the head which sends your opponent spinning to the ice... not many people can pull that off.

[eva unit zero 271]

Only eva could be asked, "Name one player that has bloomed as late and as spectacularly as Franzen has." and answer with some diatribe about a completely unrelated players possible linemates next season and imply exaggerated, unrealistic projections of his future.

Your segues are about as natural as an elephant banging a cat.

Give it time. If Franzen ditches, Kopecky replaces him and plays on the top two lines next season and puts up Franzen-esque numbers, this whole forum will be in more shock than if Lilja were to win the Norris.

[Mors 201]

Well, if Kopecky is given the same kind of second line time with power play time (in Franzen's "breakout year he played 2:49 per game on the PP") he could replicate Franzen's sudden change, as Kopecky's production this year is very similar to Franzen's ten goal season after adjusting for ice time (Kopecky is on pace to finish with ten goals with about as much total ice time played as Franzen had) and Kopecky is the same age as Franzen was then. Couple that with the fact that Franzen is likely to leave in the offseason...I say next season's second line should be either Hudler/Zetterberg/Kopecky or Hudler/Kopecky/Hossa. Either way, Kopecky should be reliable for a good level of production.

I'm really trying hard here Eva, but you're making it pretty difficult. I think you have more ambitious plans for Kopecky than Kopecky does for himself. I'm still standing by what I said, I'll admit if he proves me wrong, but his -5 in the last 5 games isn't helping the cause either.

[blikst 1]

Give it time. If Franzen ditches, Kopecky replaces him and plays on the top two lines next season and puts up Franzen-esque numbers, this whole forum will be in more shock than if Lilja were to win the Norris.

Kopecky turning into a "Franzen" would be a much bigger surprise than Franzen's development. At least in Franzen you could see glimpses of what he does now when he first came here. I just don't see that in Kopecky.

[eva unit zero 271]

Kopecky turning into a "Franzen" would be a much bigger surprise than Franzen's development. At least in Franzen you could see glimpses of what he does now when he first came here. I just don't see that in Kopecky.

There have been probably 6-8 games this season where Kopecky was the team's best player. That's a pretty good number, and more than most of his teammates.