The misconception that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are equal

[Slave 31]

lol

seriously

lol

who cares we have them both

[blikst 1]

I don't mind when people say Datsyk is better, he certainly has been this season. What I don't like is people using THIS season as proof that Datsyk has always been better. Before this year it has been really close between them and you could make a case for either of them being the best. The NOW doesn't affect the PRESENT.

Edited March 25, 2009 by blikst

[eva unit zero 271]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=200...bx-skater-stats

Zetterberg's "Shutdown" line let in four goals while on the ice during that game. He didn't finish a minus because he took place in much of the scoring but the point remains. Datsyuk was matched against the first line, primarily Thornton and that line was silent all night. While Z's line was walked all over by Michalek and Clowe.

Well, you are incorrect as Filppula was the center for three (Cheechoo, Michalek, Marleau) of San Jose's six goals, Zetterberg was the center for two (Boyle, Pavelski), and Datsyuk was the center for one (Ehrhoff). Seems like you just can't get things right when you make your vast assumptions. Oh btw...Datsyuk played with Hossa that game too.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I would argue that Zetterberg has never been better than Datsyuk during the respective careers. The only season's in which they were never paired was most of this season and the 05-06 season. Datsyuk played with Shanny and Draper. Zetterberg played with Holmstrom and Samuelsson. That season they both finished with 85+ points.

Back then the argument was that Datsyuk wasn't great defensively, which was completely wrong. He was a faceoff god and two way machine in the 05-06 series against Edmonton but only registered a couple assists so he was considered a choke artist, while Z scored 6 goals in 6 games.

How did Datsyuk go from a 87 point floater to a 97 point Selke winner in two seasons? Was it the fact that his game changed drastically over a season and a half or was it because he was severely underrated by Red Wings fan and virtually unknown except for his dekes outside of Detroit?

See this is where I think you are wrong. Until this year I have always put Zetterberg ahead of Datsyuk, this year Dats has been off the charts good compared to Zetterberg.

What is the main reason I have thought that Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk? You can throw all the stats up that you want but when you need a game changing play or event this is where Zetterberg seems to shine and this is why so many people say he is such a better leader. Look back at the big games in the past 5 years and compare the two players. I can guarantee you that Zetterberg will show up more often than Datsyuk.

Datsyuk scores nicer goals and has the better talent, I don't think anyone will deny that but a couple of years ago there were a lot of people on here (including myself) begging for Datsyuk to be traded after our early round exits and disappearing act that he pulled in the playoffs.

Fact of the matter is that Zetterberg has been much better than Datsyuk has in the playoffs, and to me that is huge and you can throw all the stats at me you want and that won't change my opinion.

[eva unit zero 271]

You have no basis for your claims. If Hossa playing with Datsyuk was an advantage, Hank playing with Hossa should spark his stats, which it has not. You're deliberately avoiding my point that linemates do not matter with Datsyuk. Hes played with EVERYONE and never missed a step, Zetterberg has only showed glimpses of last year while playing with Datsyuk and Homer.

Apparently the reigning Selke winner no longer plays defense.. he stands at the blue line waiting for passes so he can set up his all star wingers.

This is the most asinine discussion of all time. Z and Datsyuk get the same amount of PK time, the same PP time and the same 5 on 5 time. Zetterberg is matched against the top lines on the road by choice, opposing coaches CHOOSE to have their top lines face the Z line and use their "Shutdown lines' against Datsyuk. There are very few teams in the league that use their top line to go one on one with the other teams top line, its simply not the case.

The shutdown center theory is just an excuse.

You keep using offense to justify why Datsyuk is better defensively. Huh?

And explain to me why Zetterberg is the top forward of choice on the PK for Babcock, and then guys like Draper and Cleary are used before Dats?

If Dats were the top defensive forward, he'd be Babcock's first pick on the PK.

[Namingway 146]

See this is where I think you are wrong. Until this year I have always put Zetterberg ahead of Datsyuk, this year Dats has been off the charts good compared to Zetterberg.

What is the main reason I have thought that Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk? You can throw all the stats up that you want but when you need a game changing play or event this is where Zetterberg seems to shine and this is why so many people say he is such a better leader. Look back at the big games in the past 5 years and compare the two players. I can guarantee you that Zetterberg will show up more often than Datsyuk.

Datsyuk scores nicer goals and has the better talent, I don't think anyone will deny that but a couple of years ago there were a lot of people on here (including myself) begging for Datsyuk to be traded after our early round exits and disappearing act that he pulled in the playoffs.

Fact of the matter is that Zetterberg has been much better than Datsyuk has in the playoffs, and to me that is huge and you can throw all the stats at me you want and that won't change my opinion.

QFT.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Namingway

[pavyaz19 1]

i wish Z and Pav could swap their contracts.

[JeffBridges 0]

See this is where I think you are wrong. Until this year I have always put Zetterberg ahead of Datsyuk, this year Dats has been off the charts good compared to Zetterberg.

What is the main reason I have thought that Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk? You can throw all the stats up that you want but when you need a game changing play or event this is where Zetterberg seems to shine and this is why so many people say he is such a better leader. Look back at the big games in the past 5 years and compare the two players. I can guarantee you that Zetterberg will show up more often than Datsyuk.

Datsyuk scores nicer goals and has the better talent, I don't think anyone will deny that but a couple of years ago there were a lot of people on here (including myself) begging for Datsyuk to be traded after our early round exits and disappearing act that he pulled in the playoffs.

Fact of the matter is that Zetterberg has been much better than Datsyuk has in the playoffs, and to me that is huge and you can throw all the stats at me you want and that won't change my opinion.

Game 6 of the 06-07 playoffs against the Ducks. Its the elimination game, wings win, they extend the series. Who scores two goals in the final three minutes to bring the Wings within one? It wasn't Zetterberg... it was Datsyuk.

All of Zetterberg's "Big games' have come while playing on a line with Datsyuk...

The only post lockout playoff series they didn't play on a line together was 05-06 against Edmonton, Datsyuk had a charlie horse, couldn't walk but still played. He was a monster defensively and Zetterberg scored 6 goals in 6 games. Thats the defining moment in Zetterberg vs Datsyuk. Ever since then, Datsyuk will always be considered second class, which is ridiculous, he was far from the reason they lost that series.

Zetterberg has 5 GWGs in the playoffs, Datsyuk has 4.

Zetterberg has 52 points in 62 games

Datsyuk has 54 in 82.

Of course, thats if you include the 2002 playoff run, in which he played fourth line minutes, on one of the deepest teams in history. From 2003 to present:

Zetterberg 52 points, 62 games.

Datsyuk 48 points in 61 games.

Since the lockout:

Datsyuk, 45 games, 18 goals, 42 points.

Zetterberg, 46 games, 25 goals, 47 points.

They're nearly identical in the post season.

[Electrophile 3,554]

They just excel at different things. So they even out at the end. Where one shines, the other hangs back. Pavs is better on offense, Hank is better on defense. And they compliment each other well when Babcock puts them on the same line. In fact, that's the best possible place for them both; with each other.

So they're not equal in that they both do the same things at the same level, they are equal in that when you add their pros plus their cons, they are equivalent. Sort of like how 5+3 and 6+2 both equal 8. You get the same result at the end, you're just going about it in a different way.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Game 6 of the 06-07 playoffs against the Ducks. Its the elimination game, wings win, they extend the series. Who scores two goals in the final three minutes to bring the Wings within one? It wasn't Zetterberg... it was Datsyuk.

All of Zetterberg's "Big games' have come while playing on a line with Datsyuk...

The only post lockout playoff series they didn't play on a line together was 05-06 against Edmonton, Datsyuk had a charlie horse, couldn't walk but still played. He was a monster defensively and Zetterberg scored 6 goals in 6 games. Thats the defining moment in Zetterberg vs Datsyuk. Ever since then, Datsyuk will always be considered second class, which is ridiculous, he was far from the reason they lost that series.

Zetterberg has 5 GWGs in the playoffs, Datsyuk has 4.

Zetterberg has 52 points in 62 games

Datsyuk has 54 in 82.

Of course, thats if you include the 2002 playoff run, in which he played fourth line minutes, on one of the deepest teams in history. From 2003 to present:

Zetterberg 52 points, 62 games.

Datsyuk 48 points in 61 games.

Since the lockout:

Datsyuk, 45 games, 18 goals, 42 points.

Zetterberg, 46 games, 25 goals, 47 points.

They're nearly identical in the post season.

You're throwing stats at me and not putting them in context which is what I alluded to in my initial post suggesting you would do.

Look at last year's playoffs for example... Can you seriously say that Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's performances were nearly identical due to their stats?

Were both amazing last year? Yes.

Did someone take it to the next level? Yes.

Zetterberg did last year and I think that's why you are seeing so many people reference that play against Pittsburgh last year because it was just such a defining moment where you remember witnessing something special that will never show up on a stats sheet but you just know that it is SO huge for the team.

I look at the greatest captain that ever played the game and think back to moments that really made a difference. I remember Detroit being down 6-0 against the Avalanche and Yzerman is out there blocking shots late in the third period. Next game Detroit comes back and beats Colorado 6-0. I also remember in 2002 when he literally played on one leg and was so weak that anytime he went in the corners he would get knocked down and it would seem like an eternity for him to get up, he still won these battles around the net and scored some big goals and led the team in scoring on one leg. I remember Harry Neale "He is playing better on one leg than everyone else is on two!!" yet most people won't look at the record books and know how important he was to that team, they will see that Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe and say well he must have been better than Yzerman. I love Lidstrom and thought he was amazing that year but I thought it was offensive that Yzerman didn't win the Conn Smythe that year. The exact same way I would've felt if Datsyuk won the Conn Smythe last year over Zetterberg even though they were both amazing.

All that being said, Datsyuk is clearly the better player THIS year... but IMO definitely not in their careers.

[55fan 5,133]

I'm really sorry about the formatting, but that's the best I can get it. The first set of numbers is for the regular season, the second is regular season/game. The third set is playoff numbers, the last set is playoff/game.

........Reg Season.....RS/game..........Playoffs............Pfs/game

........PavelHank.......PavelHank........PavelHank.......PavelHank

GP....518 424..................................82 62

G 169 181 .326 .427 ........21 28 .256 .452

A 345 218 .667 .514 ........39 30 .476 .484

P 514 399 .992 .941 ........54 52 .659 .839

PIM 137 156 .264 .368 ........18 34 .220 .548

GW 24 37 .046 .087 ........4 5 .049 .081

If we look at these, we'll see that they are quite close, but each shines at different points.

I believe that if each of looked at this table, we'd come to different conclusions. Some things matter to some people, other things matter to others, and we can all look and say "yeah, but back in (insert year) remember that (insert player) was playing (under insert conditions).

We aren't going to agree. They're both pretty darn good.

Raw talent? I'd give it to Dats. Overall impact on the team? Tossup. It depends on what you look for, and we could argue it all day.

Edited March 25, 2009 by 55fan

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

This will be the first season since the lockout where there is an appreciable difference in scoring between Hank and Pavel that can't be accounted for by missed games. He certainly didn't lose his touch overnight, but he's definitely been a bit off this year. Whether that can be attributed to his back or if it's just been an off year for him, I can't say. If it's the former and it persists then we've got a problem on our hands, but otherwise, given their past totals, it'd be folly to use just this one year to make judgments about them.

[JeffBridges 0]

This will be the first season since the lockout where there is an appreciable difference in scoring between Hank and Pavel that can't be accounted for by missed games. He certainly didn't lose his touch overnight, but he's definitely been a bit off this year. Whether that can be attributed to his back or if it's just been an off year for him, I can't say. If it's the former and it persists then we've got a problem on our hands, but otherwise, given their past totals, it'd be folly to use just this one year to make judgments about them.

The conclusion that is easily drawn is that Zetterberg has never outscored Datsyuk in a full season. When paired, Zetterberg's production increases, when separated it decreases. Datsyuk had a career season last year playing with Zetterberg, they were separated for half of the year and Datsyuk continued rolling, scoring at a higher pace than last years "career year".

Put 2 and 2 together... Zetterberg's top end potential is 95 point, selke worthy hockey playing WITH Datsyuk. Datsyuk's top potential isn't known, hes improved every single season, who knows if this is his peak? But hes scoring at a higher rate than ever playing with anyone on his line, including Zetterberg for a short amount of time.

Z isn't having an off year, hes playing exactly where he should be. 80 point, Selke hockey. Datsyuk is in another league, which is why the "Big 3" is now being called the "Big 4".

Datsyuk scoring 105 points next season, baring injuries doesn't seem ridiculous. Zetterberg scoring 90 seems like a reach unless the Z-D-H line is reunited for a full season.

[Namingway 146]

The conclusion that is easily drawn is that Zetterberg has never outscored Datsyuk in a full season. When paired, Zetterberg's production increases, when separated it decreases. Datsyuk had a career season last year playing with Zetterberg, they were separated for half of the year and Datsyuk continued rolling, scoring at a higher pace than last years "career year".

Put 2 and 2 together... Zetterberg's top end potential is 95 point, selke worthy hockey playing WITH Datsyuk. Datsyuk's top potential isn't known, hes improved every single season, who knows if this is his peak? But hes scoring at a higher rate than ever playing with anyone on his line, including Zetterberg for a short amount of time.

Z isn't having an off year, hes playing exactly where he should be. 80 point, Selke hockey. Datsyuk is in another league, which is why the "Big 3" is now being called the "Big 4".

Datsyuk scoring 105 points next season, baring injuries doesn't seem ridiculous. Zetterberg scoring 90 seems like a reach unless the Z-D-H line is reunited for a full season.

There you go defending your opinions on Datsyuk being the better player based on offensive statistics again

Sure, Datsyuk won the Selke. He is a great defensive forward, one of the best if not the best. Awards are awards. Just because Z won the Conn Smythe last year, does it mean he's still the most valuable player to the team today? Not necessarily. Like 55fan said, we can argue this forever because in the end it comes down to your own opinions.

Try going on the Pens board and asking them who they think is better out of Crosby and Malkin. I'm sure you'd get the same kind of argument there as well.

Yes, Datsyuk does show leadership through action more than words. Does that make him a better leader? Not necessarily. I think the Red Wings organization would know better than some random on LGW on who the better potential leader would be.

I'm not trying to bring Datsyuk down by any means, I love him just as much as any other Wings fan but I will argue about it if any random such as yourself tries throwing their own opinions out there and belittling Z while they're at it.

I can easily say Datsyuk is better than Kopecky, Lidstrom is better than lebda. Those are facts. But I think nobody should be able to say Datsyuk is better than Zetterberg and try to mean it as a fact. Like you said, it's Yzerman and Feds all over again. Apples and Oranges.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Namingway

[pockets 9]

WE HAVE BOTH!!!!

Who cares

But to make a point while Z is damn good defensively and his 5 on 3 PK is epic in its own right to base your argument on that sole fact alone is stupid

Last years Super Bowl that Tyree guy had that amazing catch but does that automatically make him the Giants best WR

When Derrick Fisher hit that shot for the lakers in the PO's with .8 secs left to win a game did that make him better then Kobe

No it didnt

Im sure i could name several more but i wont the simple fact is during the Playoffs someone almost always steps up last year it was Z, this year who knows

Dats is having a great season without Z, Z having a good season without Dats plain and simple. Dats has the ability to make anyone he plays with good. So does Z but to a lesser extent

So heres food for thought if Rafls has an epic moment like Zs 5 on 3 PK does that make Ralfs better then Lids?

And did i mention we have both?

[puckbags 863]

The conclusion that is easily drawn is that Zetterberg has never outscored Datsyuk in a full season. When paired, Zetterberg's production increases, when separated it decreases. Datsyuk had a career season last year playing with Zetterberg, they were separated for half of the year and Datsyuk continued rolling, scoring at a higher pace than last years "career year".

Put 2 and 2 together... Zetterberg's top end potential is 95 point, selke worthy hockey playing WITH Datsyuk. Datsyuk's top potential isn't known, hes improved every single season, who knows if this is his peak? But hes scoring at a higher rate than ever playing with anyone on his line, including Zetterberg for a short amount of time.

Z isn't having an off year, hes playing exactly where he should be. 80 point, Selke hockey. Datsyuk is in another league, which is why the "Big 3" is now being called the "Big 4".

Datsyuk scoring 105 points next season, baring injuries doesn't seem ridiculous. Zetterberg scoring 90 seems like a reach unless the Z-D-H line is reunited for a full season.

Did Z sleep with your wife/gf/mom/dog or something...you have serious hate on for the guy....its kinda creepy actually in a jealous man love kinda way..get over it !!! Oh and just remember DATS TRUSTS HIS EYES TO DR. RAHMANI AND SO SHOULD YOU !!!

[Nev 1,085]

People seem to be getting all het up over a very minor and somewhat pointless argument.

This season Dats has clearly been the better player. Before this season, probably Zetterberg. I expect Zetterberg will come strong again in the future. Give him a healthy back, a decent off-season and no contract talks weighing him down and he will most likely break Hakan Loobs record of goals in a season by a Swede (stated objective of his).

Especially if Dats is his centre

Fact is we're damn lucky to have both.

[Doggy 130]

How many more seasons will it take before this belief is squashed? The stats and tape show that Datsyuk consistantly can play with anyone on the team and put up 85+ points. Z's biggest career season came while playing with Datsyuk last season.

This is mainly in reaction to Babcock calling Datsyuk the "Best forward in the game".

What else does Datsyuk need to do to actually take claim as the best forward on this team? It seems like every comparison thread has Datsyuk or Zetterberg as equal and its simply not the case. They get the same minutes, Zetterberg has better linemates and hes 20 points behind Datsyuk.

In before eva or others say "Zetterberg is better defensively, the Selke is a sham" and somehow Zetterberg's unrecognized defense somehow puts him on the same level as Datsyuk.

In all honesty, Datsyuk is doing nothing but getting better while Z seems to have hit his career potential without being paired with Datsyuk. A Selke finalist, 75 point player is nothing to put down but its clearly not the same as a 100 point Selke season.

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

I think the reason it's not discussed is the same reason no-one was trashing Datsyuk in the playoffs when Hank outplayed him. Most Wings fans don't hate Zetterberg or Datsyuk. They're content with the way they're playing and just because Datsyuk is playing exceptionally well this season, doesn't create a need to trash Zetterberg because he hasn't been as good.

I gotta say, each one of your posts have had the whiniest tone from the first syllable to last. I doubt you'll be around much longer anyway because you'll soon go back to your normal account, whichever one that may be. You're definitely not a new poster, that's for sure.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

When paired, Zetterberg's production increases, when separated it decreases.

Does it? I think that's a valid line of inquiry, and the same goes for Pavel's production remaining the same when separated from Hank.

[RusDRW 155]

looks like many people in this thread are taking it too personally. Saying that Dats is better (and he clearly is) does not mean no one likes what Zetterberg brings to the table. We are lucky to have them both. However, I do not see any aspects of the game where Dats is worse (even slighly) than Zetterberg.

PS it is really strange to see that offense is so underrated on these boards. You are not going to win without scoring...

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

How many more seasons will it take before this belief is squashed? The stats and tape show that Datsyuk consistantly can play with anyone on the team and put up 85+ points. Z's biggest career season came while playing with Datsyuk last season.

This is mainly in reaction to Babcock calling Datsyuk the "Best forward in the game".

What else does Datsyuk need to do to actually take claim as the best forward on this team? It seems like every comparison thread has Datsyuk or Zetterberg as equal and its simply not the case. They get the same minutes, Zetterberg has better linemates and hes 20 points behind Datsyuk.

In before eva or others say "Zetterberg is better defensively, the Selke is a sham" and somehow Zetterberg's unrecognized defense somehow puts him on the same level as Datsyuk.

In all honesty, Datsyuk is doing nothing but getting better while Z seems to have hit his career potential without being paired with Datsyuk. A Selke finalist, 75 point player is nothing to put down but its clearly not the same as a 100 point Selke season.

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

No. If that was the case, Zetterberg would have a harder time winning the Conn Smythe last year in the playoffs.

Calling Datsyuk the best forward in the game right now this season has some pretty good merit to it. Between the two, it's easy to say that Datsyuk has been better than Zetterberg overall this year. Zetterberg has been far from a slouch though. Last year though, probably the other way around with Zetterberg being better overall than Datsyuk, and obviously not trying to shun Datsyuk that way either.

Neither player has to carry one another, both are world-class players.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

lol

seriously

lol

who cares we have them both

[norrisnick 1]

Zetterberg isn't Russian but Pavel is which is totally unfair because Fedorov wasn't as beloved as Yzerman. That's pretty much what it boils down to for Yzyman.

[Namingway 146]

Zetterberg isn't Russian but Pavel is which is totally unfair because Fedorov wasn't as beloved as Yzerman. That's pretty much what it boils down to for Yzyman.

Either that or the fact that Feds played lazy when he wasn't godly. I don't think I've yet to see Datsyuk play lazy but that's just me

[wingfan40 1]

How many more seasons will it take before this belief is squashed? The stats and tape show that Datsyuk consistantly can play with anyone on the team and put up 85+ points. Z's biggest career season came while playing with Datsyuk last season.

This is mainly in reaction to Babcock calling Datsyuk the "Best forward in the game".

What else does Datsyuk need to do to actually take claim as the best forward on this team? It seems like every comparison thread has Datsyuk or Zetterberg as equal and its simply not the case. They get the same minutes, Zetterberg has better linemates and hes 20 points behind Datsyuk.

In before eva or others say "Zetterberg is better defensively, the Selke is a sham" and somehow Zetterberg's unrecognized defense somehow puts him on the same level as Datsyuk.

In all honesty, Datsyuk is doing nothing but getting better while Z seems to have hit his career potential without being paired with Datsyuk. A Selke finalist, 75 point player is nothing to put down but its clearly not the same as a 100 point Selke season.

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

I will agree that Dats is better than Z.

But....I have two thigns to say.

1. I don't think Z has hit his full ptoential. He is having an off season but I feel that can mostly be attributed to the fact that he's been on the 2nd line all season and babcock constantly changes the wingers on him. There is no chance for chemistry.

2. I am pretty sure Z usually plays more on the PK than Pav, which is pretty important.

Both are great players in the end.