The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[clutchngrab 12]

Ozzy on the other hand has had flashes of brilliance, but then continues to let in absolutely back breaking, momentum killing goals.

This

[Carman 387]

Howard didn't play against Nashville because he got the easier Game, the night before, with a well rested Team in front of him, and faced the bottom feeder Duckies.

Just as has happened all Season long.

Most coaches play the "hot" hand, the "better" goaltender against the better Teams, in the tougher situations. Babcock is doing the exact opposite. It's been a pattern all Season long.

Howard is being coddled, and allowed to pad his stats against the worst Teams in the League.

Don't buy that. Teams almost always switch up the goaltending in back-to-back games.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Carman

[clutchngrab 12]

I see real improvement in Howard's game. At the beginning of the season, his positioning, rebound control and puck-handling were atrocious. Now, his positioning has gotten alot better, and since he is a relatively big goalie (compared to Osgood) this helps tremendously. His rebound control still needs work as does his puck handling, but both have improved as well.

Osgood, can look great for stretches of a game but then suddenly give up a goal that he (and the team) would like to have back. Pucks seem to go through him more then they should. My theory is that he does not challenge the shooters as much as he should and is too deep in the net. Because he is so small, it is critical for his game that his positioning be spot on with regards to his depth in net. At 37, and with his experience, I don't think Osgood should be a "project" for Mike Babcock. Howard has every right to be one and is proving to be a good learner.

[Outsider 42]

since the similar record has been brought up a few times for the last ten games I figured I'd post that data:

Howard: Last 10 games:

31 shots…. 28 saves… 3 GA…. 0 GF

40 shots…. 39 saves…. 1 GA…. 0 GF

21 shots…. 17 saves…. 4 GA…. 3 GF

30 shots…. 30 saces…. 0 GA…. 3 GF

32 shots….. 30 saves… 2 GA…. 3 GF

27 shots…. 25 saves…. 2 GA…. 3 GF

26 shots…. 25 saves…. 1GA….. 0 GF

29 shots…. 28 saves…. 1 GA…. 3 GF

36 shots…. 32 saves…. 4 GA…. 1 GF

30 shots…. 29 saves…. 1 GA…. 4 GF

Shots: 302 shots faced…. 283 saved (.937 %). 19 GA… 20 GF

Osgood: Last 10 games:

35 shots… 32 saves… 3 GA…. 0GF

35 shots… 33 saves… 2 GA…. 3 GF

26 shots… 23 saves…. 3 GA (4 including Shootout)…. 3 GF

17 shots… 14 saves…. 3 GA… 0 GF

25 shots… 22 saves…. 3 GA…. 1 GF

20 shots… 18 saves…. 2 GA…. 1 GF

28 shots… 23 saves…. 5 GA…. 1 GF

34 shots… 33 saves…. 1 GA…. 1 GF (2 if including SO)

29 shots…. 29 saves…. 0 GA…. 2 GF

21 shots…. 20 saves… 1 GA…. 3 GF

Shots: 270 shots faced…. 247 saves made (.914)… 23 GA… 15 GF

Mind you, this is pretty subjective, since Osgood's last 10 extend back to when we had a healthy team (only Franzen was out at the time).

It's also pretty subjective considering that of those Games, Osgood faced nearly all of the "real" competition, whereas Howard has been playing, almost exclusively, against bottom feeders.

Howard's "last 10"

Columbus, (twice): 1-0-1

Chicago: 0-1

Dallas: 0-1

Tampa Bay: 1-0

Phoenix: 1-0

Anaheim: 1-0

St. Louis: 0-1

Rangers: 1-0

Oilers: 0-1

Phoenix and Chicago are the ONLY two Teams offering any real, concrete challenge. He STILL went 5-5, against some of the worst Teams in the League.

Now....conversely:

Osgood's "last 10"

Chicago: 0-1

Nashville, (twice): 1-1

The Devs: 0-0-1

Flames, (twice): 1-1

Florida: 0-0-1

Toronto: 0-1

San Jose: 1-0

Boston: 0-1

Nah.....no disparity in talent there at all. The Columbus Blue Jackets, and the Ducks, and the St. Louis Blues are just as tough a Team to face, and beat, as the Flames, the Sharks and the Predators.

No difference whatsoever.

[clutchngrab 12]

You keep making the same assinine argument about compete level. Like somehow lesser teams in the standings are not able to score at the NHL level. Give it a rest already. Your point has been made about 15 times in 2 threads that I know of and its not even that compelling an argument in the first place.

Here's one for you instead: How about comparing Osgoods shootout record against Howards. That should be interesting.

[Carman 387]

Any given night a team can look like a Division leader, or a last place team. NHL competition is NHL competition, they are both playing in front of a depleted line up that isn't scoring and Howard has been better. Face it. Until Howard s***s the bed it is his show. At least in the regular season.

[Guest Shoreline]

I don't think I've ever heard/read Chris sound this insubordinate. Hopefully things are not as tense as this article makes them sound:

Osgood Impatient

Now....not for nothin', but I take exception to this particular Babcock quote:

"It's amazing how it works," Babcock said last week. "If Ozzie had a good night the other night in Chicago (3-0 loss), then he would have started (the next game) and we wouldn't be talking about this....."

You see, that wasn't exactly the case when Osgood had a "good night" against Nashville, stopping 33 of 35 shots for the Win. He SAT the next three Games while Howard got the Starts against the weaker Teams.

When he did get another Start, it was against Chicago, on the second night of b-2-b's for the Wings. He stopped 33 of 35 shots, and lost 0-3. Howard got the next Start against Chicago, on the second night of b-2-b for CHICAGO, and allowed the same number of goals, on fewer shots, and lost 0-3.

He's played both games since, and he'll Start the next game, too.

The following sounds VERY un-Ozzie-like:

"But if you don't play, it's impossible to get to that point. I'm a goalie, OK, and I've been playing for 20-some years since Juniors. What I say (about goaltending) is closer to the facts than what he (Babcock) would say."

I hope this doesn't get ugly. That is the very last thing this Team needs right now.

I hate to say it, but Christopher has a point. He's NOT playing badly. He's facing tougher competition. And, (as he states in the article), he has proven that he's capable of playing. He just has to play.

When the team starts to play bad, it's inevitable that individuals get called out. That's what happens with frustration. I don't agree at all with Babs, but how he coaches is his thing. Maybe there's a reason for saying what he does, who knows. I'm more interested in how the team responds to ass kicking's like what happened against the Hawks, and battles through some obvious adversity, than try and fumble with ambiguous statements made to the media.

[Outsider 42]

Don't buy that. Teams almost always switch up the goaltending in back-to-back games.

Right, Carman. You're right.

And they almost always give the tougher game, against the better opponent, to the "hot" or "better" goaltender, and give the easier game, against the weaker Team, to the "weaker" goaltender.

Once again....Babcock has done the exact opposite, all Season long, with only a single, solitary exception. He played Howard in Montreal, on the second night of back-to-backs, and Osgood in Florida on his first night back after his bout with the flu. Other than that? Take a close look, Carman....

B-2-B: Calgary then St. Louis? Osgood gets Calgary, Howard St. Louis.

B-2-B: New Jersey then Rangers? Osgood gets New Jersey, Howard New York. - Coincidentally, Oz sat for 3 games prior to this Start against NJ.

B-2-B: Anaheim then Nashville? Howard gets Anaheim, Osgood Nashville. - He also sat for 3 games prior to this Start against the tougher Team.

B-2-B: Dallas then Chicago? Howard gets Dallas, Osgood Chicago. - Sat another 3 games, in spite of a fantastic Game against NSH.

Take a look at the schedule closely, Carman.

In every instance where a tough opponent comes up on the schedule, Osgood suddenly gets his "opportunity", whereas Howard is purposely given the weaker of the opponents. Without exception.

[Carman 387]

Maybe, just maybe Babcock expects his veteran goalie Osgood to play like an NHL caliber goaltender with his years of experience? You are such a complete Osgood homer I cannot even being to coherently discuss this situation. Babcock obviously wants to ruin Osgood by playing him against "tougher" teams. Poor Osgood.

[mackel 766]

I just hope Osgood retires after the season's over, that way this board can move on... OsGood or OsBad discussions are getting old. He is what he is, a good enough goaltender who can get hot as a fircracker from time to time or who can be ice cold at other times. Other goalies of this ilk include Roloson, Emery, Guigere, Conklin, Vokoun etc. Osgood has had a good run with a great team over a long period of time.

[Guest Shoreline]

I just hope Osgood retires after the season's over, that way this board can move on... OsGood or OsBad discussions are getting old. He is what he is, a good enough goaltender who can get hot as a fircracker from time to time or who can be ice cold at other times. Other goalies of this ilk include Roloson, Emery, Guigere, Conklin, Vokoun etc. Osgood has had a good run with a great team over a long period of time.

Ew, I hope Ozzie retires when he's ready, not to appease some Ozzie haters. I have no problem giving them crap for it.

[Outsider 42]

You keep making the same assinine argument about compete level. Like somehow lesser teams in the standings are not able to score at the NHL level. Give it a rest already. Your point has been made about 15 times in 2 threads that I know of and its not even that compelling an argument in the first place.

Here's one for you instead: How about comparing Osgoods shootout record against Howards. That should be interesting.

LOL...talk about cherry picking stats.

Yes, it's true. Osgood has never been the best shoot-out goaltender, and most shooters know his tendencies.

Howard has been much better in shoot-outs. As was Conklin last year. Odd.....

I wonder if Howard will fare as well once Players build up a "book" on him, too.

Rather like Raycroft. And Hiller. And LeClaire. And Mason. And Price. And Toskala. Oh....

And Legace.

[Outsider 42]

Edit: Double post. Sorry...

Edited December 31, 2009 by Outsider

[Outsider 42]

Maybe, just maybe Babcock expects his veteran goalie Osgood to play like an NHL caliber goaltender with his years of experience? You are such a complete Osgood homer I cannot even being to coherently discuss this situation. Babcock obviously wants to ruin Osgood by playing him against "tougher" teams. Poor Osgood.

Well, it would help your ability to "coherently discuss" this situation if you were able to understand the argument which is being put forward.

I never argued that Babcock wants to ruin Osgood by playing him against the tougher Teams.

What I argued is that

( a ) It is to be expected that Osgood will not fare as well as he, (and we), would like when he is only getting very limited playing time, and only against Teams the Wings have little to NO CHANCE of beating with their current roster. And

( b ) It is to be expected that Howard would be posting better numbers than Osgood, and enjoying more success, when he's getting more vastly more playing time, but ONLY against the weaker Teams in the League, almost without exception.

I'm not sure what part of that is difficult for you to grasp.

[Vladifan 680]

you can bold every word in every post you make and it won't change the fact that osgood is brutal

The fact that you bolded "brutal" must mean you believe he really truly sucks as a goalie. Which pretty much makes your whole argument unbelievable to say the least because he does not. What you're really saying is that you just don't like him.

CHECK HIS STATS. CHECK HIS RECORD. OR JUST CHECK OUTSIDER'S FACTS ON GAMES PLAYED THIS YEAR. OR COMPARE HOWARD'S AND OSGOOD'S RECORDS THIS YEAR. And I'm not really yelling. I just want you to actually see this and MOVE ON.

Ya think? :deal:

Edited December 31, 2009 by Vladifan

[Carman 387]

Well, it would help your ability to "coherently discuss" this situation if you were able to understand the argument which is being put forward.

I never argued that Babcock wants to ruin Osgood by playing him against the tougher Teams.

What I argued is that

( a ) It is to be expected that Osgood will not fare as well as he, (and we), would like when he is only getting very limited playing time, and only against Teams the Wings have little to NO CHANCE of beating with their current roster. And

( b ) It is to be expected that Howard would be posting better numbers than Osgood, and enjoying more success, when he's getting more vastly more playing time, but ONLY against the weaker Teams in the League, almost without exception.

I'm not sure what part of that is difficult for you to grasp.

The part where you believe NHL teams have that much disparity on a goaltenders performance. It's not like Howard was getting 10 shots against verse a Bantam team and Osgood had to stop All Star teams with 70+ shots.

[b.shanafan14 733]

I think Howard has been great this season and has really been a pleasant surprise. That said, Osgood hasn't gotten a fair shake in my eyes. He hasn't played horrible and when he does play a good game he seems incapable of earning another start, win or lose. I think Ozzy is owed a better shot because as good as Howard is, Osgood still has two amazing post-seasons behind him and is our best bet this season.

I'm not saying Osgood should be the guy right this moment, but he deserves more than one start in ten, especially since goaltending is the least of the Wings' issues.

[Outsider 42]

Any given night a team can look like a Division leader, or a last place team. NHL competition is NHL competition, they are both playing in front of a depleted line up that isn't scoring and Howard has been better. Face it. Until Howard s***s the bed it is his show. At least in the regular season.

As with Conklin last Season.....I wouldn't be too sure about that.

If you think that Howard isn't being used in a very specific, very calculated way, you're delusional. It's so obvious, it's almost embarrassing. And it is not being done to "ruin" Osgood.

It's being done to "insulate" and "protect" Howard. And It. Is. Working.

Howard has been exposed to the minimum amount of challenge and adversity possible, while at the same time having had his opportunity for success maximized to the greatest extent possible. He has capitalized on both ends of the spectrum.

To be honest, he would have to be almost utterly inept NOT to have done so.

As for "It's Howard's show".....again, I wouldn't be too sure about that. It was "Conklin's show" too, wasn't it? That is, right up until Babcock basically jabbed Ozzie and told him "Move! Now! We need you, because we all know that YOU give us the best chance!"

I think Babcock learned his lesson with Legace in 2005-2006. Not for nothing, but he was "advised" by many of the vets on that Team.....a couple of whom are gone now....that it would probably be in everyone's best interest to go with Ozzie, regardless of how well Legace was playing that Regular Season. The vets weren't necessarily pleased, but it was Babcock's Team, and it was his call.

He ignored the "advice", and went with "his" guy.

We all know how that turned out.

[Guest Shoreline]

I think Howard has been great this season and has really been a pleasant surprise. That said, Osgood hasn't gotten a fair shake in my eyes. He hasn't played horrible and when he does play a good game he seems incapable of earning another start, win or lose. I think Ozzy is owed a better shot because as good as Howard is, Osgood still has two amazing post-seasons behind him and is our best bet this season.

I'm not saying Osgood should be the guy right this moment, but he deserves more than one start in ten, especially since goaltending is the least of the Wings' issues.

To the bold, he never has. Even when he helps take the team to a Stanley Cup, you still have a niche of people who, the following season, declare him the worst 'tender in Wings history and that he should be out of a job, as well as anyone can do his job. It's a fair assessment that Osgood will have less leniency than those who have a superstar name like Patrick Roy, and will never be given that "fair shake" by those few.

As mentioned, though, when your team is losing, fans tend to start picking on individuals, and Osgood is a particular favorite from some people (some very few, yet vocal people) who love to show their appreciation for the Wings by taking a complete s*** on a Wing when the team loses any games, particularly one who has helped the team win 3 cups. I would say they are stupid and picked a silly battle, but it might be jealousy from the fact that a successful tender has not established a celebrity status like a Roy or Brodeur.

[Carman 387]

I do think Osgood should start in the playoffs. Just going to make that clear. Osgood is a goalie that usually is all or nothing with his performances, and I believe Babcock is waiting for Osgood to be great before he gives him the reins for more then a game.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Howard didn't play because it was a back-to-back not because he lost and it was Osgood's chance.

I can always count on you to miss the point completely.

[Outsider 42]

The part where you believe NHL teams have that much disparity on a goaltenders performance. It's not like Howard was getting 10 shots against verse a Bantam team and Osgood had to stop All Star teams with 70+ shots.

Really? It's not?

Hmm.....

How many goals has Columbus scored in their past TEN, giving credence to Howard's "spectacular!", "amazing!" Games against them?

Fourteen. Fourteen goals. That's how many. Guess what? They're making EVERY goaltender they face look BETTER than they actually are. Just as the Wings have been doing.

For some persective: How many goals have the offensively inept, "We can't score! We can't SCORE!" Red Wings put up in their past 10 Games?

Seventeen. Seventeen goals. That's 3 more than Columbus has put up in the same timeframe.

Hmmmm.....

A "crappy" performance against a "very good" Team from Osgood nets 3 goals on 35 shots, on the second night of back-to-back games, on the Road, when his Team is outshot 20-35, and vastly outplayed for the entire Game.

A "good" performance against that very same "very good" Team from Howard nets an equal amount of goals, on fewer shots, facing a Team on the second night of back-to-back games, at Home, in a Game where his Team outshoots the opponent by a slim margin of 33-31

Hmmmm......

For yet MORE perspective: How many goals had Nashville scored in the 10 games prior to Osgood's impressive Win against them?

Thirty One. Thirty One goals. Wow. That's, like, 3.1 goals per Game, on average. And, (just for arguments sake), how many have they scored SINCE facing the Wings when they scored slightly less than TWO, (due to the very brief OT period), against the "brutal" Chris Osgood?

Hmmm..........

Thirty three. Thirty three goals. In EIGHT Games. Gee.....that's......that's over FOUR goals per Game, on average.

I can certainly see what you mean, Carman.

Nope. Absolutely NO disparity in one Teams ability to score goals, regardless of opponent, and another Teams INability to score goals, regardless of opponent.

No disparity whatsoever. None.

[Stiffy 0]

It's hard to take anything from visual text on the internet. If there was a video you could at least read body language or listen to their voices.

If I were the typical nitpicking a$$hole on these forums I would ask you if it is also hard to take anything from non-visual text, but I am not. I'm a different and more unique kind of a$$hole.

Seriously, you are absolutely right. This can be given "tone," positive or negative, that has nothing to so with the state of mind of either. I think they are both big boys and this is nothing to worry about.

[Carman 387]

Really? It's not?

Hmm.....

How many goals has Columbus scored in their past TEN, giving credence to Howard's "spectacular!", "amazing!" Games against them?

Fourteen. Fourteen goals. That's how many. Guess what? They're making EVERY goaltender they face look BETTER than they actually are. Just as the Wings have been doing.

For some persective: How many goals have the offensively inept, "We can't score! We can't SCORE!" Red Wings put up in their past 10 Games?

Seventeen. Seventeen goals. That's 3 more than Columbus has put up in the same timeframe.

Hmmmm.....

A "crappy" performance against a "very good" Team from Osgood nets 3 goals on 35 shots, on the second night of back-to-back games, on the Road, when his Team is outshot 20-35, and vastly outplayed for the entire Game.

A "good" performance against that very same "very good" Team from Howard nets an equal amount of goals, on fewer shots, facing a Team on the second night of back-to-back games, at Home, in a Game where his Team outshoots the opponent by a slim margin of 33-31

Hmmmm......

For yet MORE perspective: How many goals had Nashville scored in the 10 games prior to Osgood's impressive Win against them?

Thirty One. Thirty One goals. Wow. That's, like, 3.1 goals per Game, on average. And, (just for arguments sake), how many have they scored SINCE facing the Wings when they scored slightly less than TWO, (due to the very brief OT period), against the "brutal" Chris Osgood?

Hmmm..........

Thirty three. Thirty three goals. In EIGHT Games. Gee.....that's......that's over FOUR goals per Game, on average.

I can certainly see what you mean, Carman.

Nope. Absolutely NO disparity in one Teams ability to score goals, regardless of opponent, and another Teams INability to score goals, regardless of opponent.

No disparity whatsoever. None.

Someone is just angry that Osgood is turning into the Ville Leino of the NHL goaltenders.

[Stiffy 0]

I can always count on you to miss the point completely.

Well, at least... sniff...sniff... you... sniff... have someone... sniff... sob... you can count on.