The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Outsider 42]

Hey you're assuming that Chris can still be an elite goaltender. I'm just joining the party.

Wrong.

Chris Osgood is not now, has never been, and will never BE, an elite goaltender.

He can't "still be" something he never was.

[Outsider 42]

Ok.

*points to the stats

Howard's are better, across the board, in damn near every category.

LOL....that wasn't the argument I was referring to. Or is your attention span really that short.

I was referring to the argument that no one expects everyone else on the Team to be in TOP form with so few Games under their belts.

But that you, and others, somehow expect Osgood to be.

Refute it.

[Carman 387]

Wrong.

Chris Osgood is not now, has never been, and will never BE, an elite goaltender.

He can't "still be" something he never was.

Ok, replace it with "decent". Same idea.

[Outsider 42]

Ok, replace it with "decent". Same idea.

Ozzie has proven already this Season, even with his "cold" performance, that he can "still be" a "decent" goaltender. You've stated it yourself.

If you're only going to throw comments out there to stir s*** up, when you don't have any real belief in what you're actually posting, then why bother?

Is it one of those "negative attention is better than no attention at all" situations?

At least have the courage to stand by your convictions, rather than blowing hither an yon with every shift in the breeze.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Outsider

[gcom007 1,465]

This is really more of a general statement than one pointed at the goaltending, but I think people are overly concerned with the "making the playoffs" issue. We're still halfway in and we're still right there in the fight. Sure, it's definitely a more important matter than in years past, but there's a lot of hockey left to be played this year and we're going to get better and healthier down the stretch. That will translate to winning more games as we actually start scoring more goals. Kronwall and Franzen's returns will be huge for this team, as will Z's obviously, though I consider that a lesser injury due to length of time out.

How it relates to the goaltending? Well, I personally don't think Osgood is going to jeopardize our chances of winning any more than Howard. Howard's played well, Osgood's played well. They've both had some rough games and rough goals. Osgood's not letting in enough goals this year to screw us over even if Howard is playing better. At the end of the day, if this team scores 2-3 goals, we can win games with either of our goalies. I think it'd be smarter to have a more balanced rotation. Give a guy a couple starts then give the next guy a couple starts, but get these guys playing 5 games each for every 10 games. Osgood will need more consecutive starts towards the end to really get ready for the playoffs.

So I guess I'm saying I don't think the "making the playoffs" thing matters in regards to our goaltending and defense for that matter. Goals against isn't our issue no matter who's in net. We just need to start scoring more and we're going to win most of our games.

[gcom007 1,465]

Ozzie has proven already this Season, even with his "cold" performance, that he can "still be" a "decent" goaltender. You've stated it yourself.

If you're only going to throw comments out there to stir s*** up, when you don't have any real belief in what you're actually posting, then why bother?

Is it one of those "negative attention is better than no attention at all" situations?

At least have the courage to stand by your convictions, rather than blowing hither an yon with every shift in the breeze.

No offense, but why are you bothering to argue with him? I appreciate your perspective and the time you take to back your stance up, but some people aren't worth the time...

[Outsider 42]

No offense, but why are you bothering to argue with him? I appreciate your perspective and the time you take to back your stance up, but some people aren't worth the time...

You're right, gcom. I guess you can chalk it up to the aforementioned "courage of conviction". Some people call it "Character".

It's rather in short supply these days, unfortunately. Too many people prefer to just be s***-stirrers.

[digitaljohn88 4]

This is really more of a general statement than one pointed at the goaltending, but I think people are overly concerned with the "making the playoffs" issue. We're still halfway in and we're still right there in the fight. Sure, it's definitely a more important matter than in years past, but there's a lot of hockey left to be played this year and we're going to get better and healthier down the stretch. That will translate to winning more games as we actually start scoring more goals. Kronwall and Franzen's returns will be huge for this team, as will Z's obviously, though I consider that a lesser injury due to length of time out.

How it relates to the goaltending? Well, I personally don't think Osgood is going to jeopardize our chances of winning any more than Howard. Howard's played well, Osgood's played well. They've both had some rough games and rough goals. Osgood's not letting in enough goals this year to screw us over even if Howard is playing better. At the end of the day, if this team scores 2-3 goals, we can win games with either of our goalies. I think it'd be smarter to have a more balanced rotation. Give a guy a couple starts then give the next guy a couple starts, but get these guys playing 5 games each for every 10 games. Osgood will need more consecutive starts towards the end to really get ready for the playoffs.

So I guess I'm saying I don't think the "making the playoffs" thing matters in regards to our goaltending and defense for that matter. Goals against isn't our issue no matter who's in net. We just need to start scoring more and we're going to win most of our games.

THIS ^^

For all the bitching and moaning and arguing we're all doing in this thread, IMO... our goaltending hasn't had that much to do with our wins and losses this year. We lose when the team doesn't score.

Going through both guys' game logs, it is ridiculous how similar all of our losses are in the last couple months:

Ozzies: 0-3, 3-4 OTL, 0-3, 1-3, 1-2 OTL, 1-5

Howards: 0-1 OTL, 0-3, 3-4, 0-1, 1-4, 0-2, 1-3

We just don't score.

[Statts 4]

Jeeeebus H. Christos on a pogo stick.....

Once again....ad nauseum.....becuase you, and most others, simply do NOT appear to be "getting it".....

Howard's level of "hotness" has come against some terrible Teams, during the EASIEST portion of this Season's schedule.

You, and others, are ASSUMING that that "hotness" will continue unchecked, and with the same "excellent' results of SIX AND FIVE, against some of the BEST Teams in the League.

Once again....

His "excellent", "hot" streak netted a record of SIX AND FIVE. Regardless of how much of that was entirely HIS fault, it is what it is. Did he steal any? No. He played "well enough" to keep his Team in Games.....against primarily botter feeder Teams.

Will he be able to do the same against the Chicago's and San Jose's and Pittsburgh's of the League? We don't know. But what we DO know is this:

His "excellent' "hot" performance against Chicago resulted in THREE GOALS on 31 shots against, when his Team was the rested Team, and the 'Hawks were the tired Team, and with plenty of ice time under his belt to get him warmed up for that Game.

Osgood's "crappy" performance aganist Chicago resulted in THREE GOALS on THIRTY FIVE shots against, when his Team was the TIRED Team, and the 'Hawks were the rested Team, and with ZERO ice time under his belt, coming in cold off the bench.

Do we know if Howard, on top of his Game, can "steal" Games against the better/best Teams in the League? Nope. No clue. But past history, even the very recent past history, points toward "probably not" at this point in his career.

Do we know that Osgood, on top of HIS Game, can "steal" Games against the better/best Teams in the League? Yep. You BETCHA he can. Can and HAS.

So....I'd suggest we get the bastard IN there, and GET him "on top of his Game". Because that's where the Wings NEED him to be. And he ain't gonna GET there in freakin' practice, NOR on the bench.

And Osgood's "cold" streak isn't as bad as you'd like to make it out to be. Osgood's "cold streak" has netted a total of 3 of a possible 6 points from some of the BETTER/BEST Teams in the League, all while coming OFF the bench, COLD. Get him warmed up, and he'll be better!

What part of that is so mysteriously incomprehensible to some of you folks?

No where in this garbage of a response did you answer my question.

You have stated yourself that Howard is playing good, for whatever foolish reason you may think. So... I ask again. Considering everything (lack of scoring, standings, ect.) at what point do you pull Howard in favor of Osgood? What price are you willing to pay to let Osgood find his game?

[Outsider 42]

No where in this garbage of a response did you answer my question.

You have stated yourself that Howard is playing good, for whatever foolish reason you may think. So... I ask again. Considering everything (lack of scoring, standings, ect.) at what point do you pull Howard in favor of Osgood? What price are you willing to pay to let Osgood find his game?

And, once again.....because you quite obviously have NOT been paying the least bit of attention whatsoever.....

I never, at any time, under any circumstance, nor in any way advocated PULLING Howard. It is QUITE possible to play BOTH goaltenders without BENCHING either of them.

You don't have to BENCH Howard in order to give Osgood MORE ice time. There were 12 Games in October. Babcock stated that he gave Osgood the majority of the Starts so that Howard could get his feet wet in his first NHL Season.

There were 14 Games in November. Osgood got 6 of them, (he missed 3 Games due to the flu), and Howard got 8 of them. See how that worked out? BOTH goaltenders got ice time, NEITHER was "benched".

There were 14 Games in December. Osgood got THREE of them, Howard got 11 of them. ONE goalie was benched, the other got plenty of ice time.

Now, heading into January, and the toughest part of the schedule, everyone wants Osgood to be "on top of his Game". If they want him there, (and they should, because they're going to need him there), he's going to have to get more than THREE Games in a MONTH.

That doesn't mean that you have to PULL Howard. You can play them BOTH.

For the last time....

WHAT PART of this is unclear to you?

[Statts 4]

And, once again.....because you quite obviously have NOT been paying the least bit of attention whatsoever.....

I never, at any time, under any circumstance, nor in any way advocated PULLING Howard. It is QUITE possible to play BOTH goaltenders without BENCHING either of them.

You don't have to BENCH Howard in order to give Osgood MORE ice time. There were 12 Games in October. Babcock stated that he gave Osgood the majority of the Starts so that Howard could get his feet wet in his first NHL Season.

There were 14 Games in November. Osgood got 6 of them, (he missed 3 Games due to the flu), and Howard got 8 of them. See how that worked out? BOTH goaltenders got ice time, NEITHER was "benched".

There were 14 Games in December. Osgood got THREE of them, Howard got 11 of them. ONE goalie was benched, the other got plenty of ice time.

Now, heading into January, and the toughest part of the schedule, everyone wants Osgood to be "on top of his Game". If they want him there, (and they should, because they're going to need him there), he's going to have to get more than THREE Games in a MONTH.

That doesn't mean that you have to PULL Howard. You can play them BOTH.

For the last time....

WHAT PART of this is unclear to you?

You got a whole lot of filler in your posts.

I disagree. I would rather ride Howard until he starts slumping. Being in a bit of a desperation mode right now I don't feel the need to change one of the only things that is going right lately IMO.

Agree to disagree I guess.

P.S. you never answered my second question.

[Outsider 42]

You got a whole lot of filler in your posts.

I disagree. I would rather ride Howard until he starts slumping. Being in a bit of a desperation mode right now I don't feel the need to change one of the only things that is going right lately IMO.

Agree to disagree I guess.

P.S. you never answered my second question.

Fair enough. You would rather ride Howard UNTIL he starts slumping, and then throw a completely cold Osgood in and HOPE he can find his best Game....immediately.

I would rather continue to give Howard the majority of the starts, but give Osgood a chance to get him Game ready, so that when Howard does start to slump, we've got at least a partially warmed up goaltender going in.

You're right, we'll agree to disagree.

And the answer to your second question has already been answered as well. I don't think we'd be paying much, if any, of a price at all by putting Ozzie in net.

[Carman 387]

Fact is Howard is hopefully our future. He is playing well, and until he trips up he should be in net developing. We need to know what we have with him, so far he is responding with very good games behind a beat up Red Wing's team. Osgood will get his chance, but until then he needs to be a good teammate, because the last thing this team needs is someone starting issues when they are playing well.

Howard has the potential to be a great goalie, and quite frankly can play at a level that Osgood has yet to reach in the regular season for a long time. Osgood is not the best goalie for carrying a team and stealing games especially at this stage of his career, Jimmy Howard might just be able to do that, and I'd say his ceiling looks to be much higher than Osgoods at the moment.

Osgood's not going any where, but there is no reason to change something that isn't broken, he'll have plenty of time to get into playoff shape towards the end of the year there is no reason to be urgent about getting a veteran playing time over a rookie goalie in the middle of the season especially when the younger goalie has performed well.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Carman

[Echolalia 2,961]

Fair enough. You would rather ride Howard UNTIL he starts slumping, and then throw a completely cold Osgood in and HOPE he can find his best Game....immediately.

That's how Ozzie's been treated his whole career. Somehow I'm not any more worried about a rusty Osgood in net compared to one who's played the past 10 games.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Echolalia

[clutchngrab 12]

One of my biggest flaws is I'm too persistent with people who are pretty off in lala land. I shouldn't even bother.

Hey it's tough dealing with manic depressives when they are on the "up". I gave up posts ago. You are the mother teresa of LGW forum.

[clutchngrab 12]

Well, maybe the rest of the forum members would like to read the discussion...

If it is between you and him and do not want others to follow along, then take it to PM!

wow. Way to add value.

[Miller Brew 0]

How can Osgood ever get an opportunity in net when Howard is so f'ing hot!?!? This is a GREAT problem to have!

[BlueMonk 102]

I took the games listed on the first page of this thread and added the two games that have been played since then. I then ranked where each opposing team ranks in the standings as of today, 1st through 30th, and averaged them by goalie.

Osgood: 10.00

Howard: 17.56

That's a pretty big difference. Ozzie's average opponent ranks 10th in the NHL overall, which likely means a middle-seed playoff team in either conference. Howard's average opponent is closer to 18th, which would miss the playoffs in at least one of the conferences.

Now, that's a measure of the quality of opponent, but it's not a measure of the kinds of offense each goalie is facing. So, I ranked the teams by GFA and did the same thing for each goalie.

Osgood: 12.17

Howard: 15.64

Here, it gets closer, but Ozzie still has had the tougher task. Ozzie is facing teams that rank about 12th league-wide in goal scoring while Howard faces a team closer to 16th.

Howard's save percentage is significantly better and it can't all be explained by the quality of offenses he's facing; he's simply been the better goalie thus far. But Ozzie has definitely had the tougher opposition and is performing better than a casual glance would indicate.

[FedorovMan91 1]

I took the games listed on the first page of this thread and added the two games that have been played since then. I then ranked where each opposing team ranks in the standings as of today, 1st through 30th, and averaged them by goalie.

Osgood: 10.00

Howard: 17.56

That's a pretty big difference. Ozzie's average opponent ranks 10th in the NHL overall, which likely means a middle-seed playoff team in either conference. Howard's average opponent is closer to 18th, which would miss the playoffs in at least one of the conferences.

Now, that's a measure of the quality of opponent, but it's not a measure of the kinds of offense each goalie is facing. So, I ranked the teams by GFA and did the same thing for each goalie.

Osgood: 12.17

Howard: 15.64

Here, it gets closer, but Ozzie still has had the tougher task. Ozzie is facing teams that rank about 12th league-wide in goal scoring while Howard faces a team closer to 16th.

Howard's save percentage is significantly better and it can't all be explained by the quality of offenses he's facing; he's simply been the better goalie thus far. But Ozzie has definitely had the tougher opposition and is performing better than a casual glance would indicate.

I agree with you that Osgood has faced tougher teams by the records but since both goalies' save percentage is extremely huge, their performances cannot be explained solely by the teams they faced against. And since no one know's the future, it is hard to tell which team is good and which team is bad. They are all professional players. Although there must be skill gap between bad teams and good teams, it is not huge.

Osgood will get a chance to play as the season goes toward the end of the season. The one thing I want to say is this season is not like last season. Although our D was awful last season, our rank was high since offense was great. This season, we do not have much time to test each goalie for playoff. We are in unsafe position to make playoff.

I hope Osgood bounces back. Last year, at the end of the season, Osgood showed his improvement. That why we believed Osgood had a chance to return in his form. If that does not occur, Howard may get a chance to start.

Last, it is extremely stupid to bring back the histories of Osgood and Wings. The past is the past and the presence is presence. Nearly pointess to compare the past and the present.

[Outsider 42]

I took the games listed on the first page of this thread and added the two games that have been played since then. I then ranked where each opposing team ranks in the standings as of today, 1st through 30th, and averaged them by goalie.

Osgood: 10.00

Howard: 17.56

That's a pretty big difference. Ozzie's average opponent ranks 10th in the NHL overall, which likely means a middle-seed playoff team in either conference. Howard's average opponent is closer to 18th, which would miss the playoffs in at least one of the conferences.

Now, that's a measure of the quality of opponent, but it's not a measure of the kinds of offense each goalie is facing. So, I ranked the teams by GFA and did the same thing for each goalie.

Osgood: 12.17

Howard: 15.64

Here, it gets closer, but Ozzie still has had the tougher task. Ozzie is facing teams that rank about 12th league-wide in goal scoring while Howard faces a team closer to 16th.

Howard's save percentage is significantly better and it can't all be explained by the quality of offenses he's facing; he's simply been the better goalie thus far. But Ozzie has definitely had the tougher opposition and is performing better than a casual glance would indicate.

Not only that, BlueMonk....

Take a look at Columbus in particular. While they rank pretty low in the Offensive category....take a real CLOSE look at where they ranked AT THE TIME when Howard faced them.

In the 10 Games leading up to the 1st time Howard faced them, they scored 14 goals. That's an average of 1.4 GF per Game. Howard faced them, and put up "GREAT!" numbers when they were busy making EVERY goaltender in the League look like Vezina Candidates.

In the four Games SINCE that 1st Game Howard faced them? A total of FOUR goals.

[Carman 387]

Gah, what is the fascination of picking apart the teams he's faced in order to deflect attention away that he is putting up very good numbers at the NHL level. Jimmy Howard is playing fantastic for Jimmy Howard, with as much as he is struggled with consistency at the NHL and AHL level it is completely insane to me how there are fans that want to see Jimmy Howard not progress. He needs these starts much more then Osgood does, he needs the experience of having the team rely on him for stretches, the playoffs are not right around the corner. There isn't a reason in the world to pull a young developing goalie that is playing great in favor of a veteran netminder in the middle of the season. Osgood will get his chance when Howard inevitably has a bad game, until then he can keep practicing, collecting a pay check and keep his mind focus on his task of helping Howard progress and getting ready for the playoff run.

Right now we are winning as a team, that's what should be the story. Not the current back-up going to the press crying about playing time. We all know what Osgood can do, now is the time to find out what Howard can do. This year has enough struggles without having to deal with a situation that is due to personal frustrations. Osgood would have a point if the team was losing, and Howard was the reason. But that is not the case. I'm not mad at Osgood, he is competitive and to be honest this is made out to be a much larger deal than it is. It has already been taken care of in the locker room and Osgood won't be harmed one bit from being sat some games in the middle of a season, especially when the goalie in front of him might be the future of the team and is winning games.

[Statts 4]

^

Well said. Agree 100%

[clutchngrab 12]

IMO: Babcock has NEVER liked Ozzy as his goalie for whatever reason. Holland is the one who fights for him.

Could be completely wrong.

I think Oz will show something good when he gets the chance.

Maybe cause Mike, for all his other faults, is a performance based coach. Osgood spent all of last season crapping the bed, and this season, while not exactly crapping, has laid a few wet farts in the sheets.

Edited January 3, 2010 by clutchngrab

[Slabby 3]

I think the team plays better in front of Howard because he's really predictable. He makes a first stop and he puts out a huge rebound. Now that the D knows to expect a rebound essentially every shot, they're in position and they chip it out. With Osgood, you have absolutely no idea what's going to happen. He might be the best goalie in the world and he might play like an AHLer with weak fundamentals, sometimes all in the same game.

I think the team has confidence in Jimmy right now, and he's playing confident too. I mean, what do you say about a goalie when he's stopping the puck? That's the same crowd that ragged on Hasek for years for his style, yet nobody stopped the puck better in his prime. If Howard collapses, that's a problem. But you know you're a harsh fanbase when you're criticizing a rookie goalie for putting up a .924 save percentage and a 2.20 GAA.

Reading this thread, it seems like some posters believe that a truly great goalie should never give up any goals at all. I guess being the goalie in Detroit truly IS one of the toughest jobs in sports.

P.S. Counting the game tonight, Howard has a better GAA and SV% than Luongo.

Is he as good as Luongo? Absolutely not. But you'd better believe that beating Roberto Luongo at goaltending, even on paper, is something to brag about.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Slabby

[Pucks 66]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/318486-...ew-role-on-team