The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Outsider 42]

Whoa... do we remember the same thing here?

I swear Osgood was injured that year? And that's why they gave Legace the start.

No. We don't remember the same thing here. YOU remember inaccurately.

When Osgood was signed, Babcock stated that there would be a "goalie competition" between he and Legace for the #1 spot, because it didn't matter to him what Osgood had done in the past, nor that Legace had always been a back up.

Osgood was not injured anywhere near the time whent the Play Offs started. He suffered a groin injury in Training Camp. Legace came in and posted a 10-1 record for the month of October, (an NHL record). Based on that strong start, Babcock declared Legace "our guy", while Osgood was down in Grand Rapids in the second Game of his 3 Game conditioning stint, and before Ozzie had had a chance to so much as touch NHL ice that year.

So much for "competition.

Legace played well that Season, including down the stretch....BUT.....

"Cracks" started to show in his mental make-up toward the stretch run. He started sounding all panicky and hysterical. Literally. That's when cooler heads tried to convince Babcock that perhaps, just perhaps, he might want to go with the veteran, CUP WINNING goaltender for the Post Season....at least to start, anyway. If Ozzie faltered, he could always turn to Legace.

No. He was having none of it. Legace was "our guy", and he was "cautiously optimistic" that he'd be more than capable of getting the job done.

Legace started in 04, and did well AT HOME, but failed on the road and Joseph replacing him against Nashville in game 3.

I could be wrong, but I think that since Legace was given the start in two different seasons, by two different coaches says a bit.

Again, it's not that you "could be" wrong. You are wrong.

You also appear to have blocked out the complete scenario leading up to Legace getting the Start against Nashville in 2004

You DO remember the whole "three headed goalie monster" from that Season, don't you?

Hasek coming out of retirement and announcing that he wanted to come back to the Wings? CuJo's "ankle injury" and the necessary surgery, which led to the Wings being unable to trade him once Dom DID come back? The Wings waiving Cujo.....then shuttling him down to the AHL in rather humiliating fashion? Dom's subsequent injury, and his announcement after 14 Games that he was "unable to play"? The Wings calling CuJo back up in a panic, and him driving up from GR with his goalie equipment stuffed in the back of a rental car? The "poison" in the lockerroom when he got there, with Hasek injured, but still hanging around the lockerroom and with the Team every day? The fact that Legace had to be placed BETWEEN them in the lockerroom because the tension was so high? And finally....

JOSEPH'S ANKLE INJURY.....You know....the one which occurred with about 5 or so games left in the Regular Season....FORCING Legace into the Starting role against Nashville?

You don't remember? That's okay. I do. So does USA Today.....follow the linky, please....

Linky linky

As for the whole Ozzie thing, he's a 37 year old vet. If he only plays one game in four, he should be able to step it up and give his team a 60 minute effort, not 3 weak goals and then a 20 minute effort at the end of the game.

When Luongo came back from his rib injury, he replaced Raycroft, and he didn't allow any goals. He hadn't played in two weeks. People always say Osgood is up there with Brodeur and Luongo, but if he is... why can't he play a solid game?

Luongo returned to the net from his cracked rib about midway through the 2nd Period against St. Louis, in relief of Raycroft, who gave up a bucketful of goals. Luongo gave up 2 goals on 17 shots in his return, for and .882 SVP (against the bottom feeder Blues). His first Start after his return from injury was against Detroit. He played well, giving up 2 goal on 28 shots, but lost 1-3.

Coincidentally.....Luongo was given FOUR STRAIGHT STARTS before he came up with his spectacular shut out. Gee....I guess the Canucks figured he needed a little ICE TIME after coming back from injury in order to get his Game back.

What a novel concept......

I know Osgood is a great goalie, but he loses focus from time to time. He's been ok, but not to his own standards. That's where the problem lies.

And you're expecting him to GET TO "his normal standards" from the bench. Right? He's been "okay", he's been "good enough". You're RIGHT. Which means that there's absolutely no justification in outright benching him, giving him no opportunity to improve, and get to "his normal standards".

So the fact that we have been scoring less than 2 goals a game has NOTHING to do with those losses? The fact that in several of those losses he only let in ONE or TWO goals?

Against Chicago, he and Osgood played equally. Neither was outstanding, but Osgood should be able to be better than Howard. Howard played AS GOOD as Osgood, debatably better, holding the Hawks to only one goal until the third period. Our guys just COULD NOT SCORE.

You really want Howard to start SCORING THE GOALS? That's the only way a few of those games would be Wins instead of Losses....

You'll just ignore me anyways, because you won't have an answer to these things. Just keep saying it's ALL Howard's fault that he's at 6-5.

I'm not ignoring you, Shady. See....I've given your post a nearly "epic" response. So I'll conclude with this.....

I never stated that the 6-5 record WAS Howard's "fault". I've only been stating that that particular record, which was accumulated while Howard was playing "excellent" against MOSTLY TERRIBLE TEAMS. And I'm wondering.....how......when.....and why......most people here seem to believe that his "excellent" play against primarily bottom feeders is going to garner "if he keeps playing like this....the Wings will win" results against some of the BEST Teams coming up on the schedule.

Wow! He held the BLUE JACKETS to one goal or less? Two games in a row? Are you kidding me? And he did the same against the St. Louis Blues for an entire game? And the New York Rangers? AND.....He shut out the Tampa Bay Lightning? Why, then, that there is proof positive that he'll be equally successful against the Caps. And the Sharks. And the Pens. And the 'Hawks.

We need Osgood back. And we need him back, on TOP of his Game. Because as "excellent" as you think Howard has been playing against the Teams on the December schedule, and regardless of WHERE the "fault" lies for the 6-5 record.....

The simple fact remains that his very best effort DID net nothing better than a 6-5 record, against the softest portion of this Season's schedule.

They're going to have to be better than that in January....and beyond. All of them. And as I stated earlier....

An "on top of his Game" Chris Osgood blows an "on top of his Game" Jimmy Howard clear out of the Arena....at least at THIS stage in their respective careers.

You don't have to bench Howard, who has FULLY earned playing time, in an effort to get Osgood MORE of the playing time he both needs, AND deserves.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I get what your saying Harold. Maybe I shouldn't have wrote it that way. I have no idea what Chris is thinking, wanting, etc. It's a select group of fans that like to play the underappreciated hero card on message boards and forums. It's them that I take exception with I guess. I believe Chris gives his best every time he steps on the ice and loves being a Red Wing. Unfortunately sometimes even that isn't enough.

No worries. I shouldn't get bent out of shape about it, but the Ozzy drama has been going on so long here.

I'd like to think when he retires, that will be the end of it. But I'm sure Jimmy and whoever else we have in net will only fill the void of arguing about goaltending here.

[Konnan511 1,736]

This season. JHo>Ozzie

[Outsider 42]

As the team got weaker and more injured the rookie goalie got better and better and Osgood was placed on the bench, in the background

There. Fixed it for ya.

Since his bout with the flu, Osgood has been given FIVE Starts in the last 26 Games. He hasn't "faded into the background". He's been firmly PLACED there, and given little to no real opportunity to work his way back to the forefront.

[thedisappearer 291]

There. Fixed it for ya.

Since his bout with the flu, Osgood has been given FIVE Starts in the last 26 Games. He hasn't "faded into the background". He's been firmly PLACED there, and given little to no real opportunity to work his way back to the forefront.

I'd say that practice is a good place to have a "real opportunity", as it is with most healthy scratches. Apparently, Babcock isn't impressed. Obviously, you are a better judge of performance you haven't seen. Tell me if the next season of Dexter will be any good.

[Outsider 42]

You actually reminded me of something I wanted to say there.

There are no stats that show the one thing Howard has been better than Osgood at. When you're down, 1-0, the team knows they have a chance to grab the lead back. If they can't score, there's not much that the goalie can do. But when we do tie it, 1-1, Howard holds the tie better, allowing the Wings to go up 2-1. Osgood lets in the most untimely goals, the ones that kill momentum, that kill the Wings morale. Howard has not been doing that.

I really believe, that's what Babs wants out of Ozzie. No early goals (first 10 minutes) and no untimely goals (right after we tie, right after we grab the lead). Osgood's play has, at times, killed our confidence, which Howard rarely does. Dallas is a game where he did. I can list 10 times that Osgood did that, end result doesn't matter.

Here I come again.....

You mean, he's capable of holding the Blue Jackets, the Blues, and the Rangers to one goal....Excellent. But those are pretty terrible Teams, with some "issues" either scoring goals, and/or holding leads.

So what about Phoenix. I seem to recall that the Wings scored TWICE in the first 10 minutes of the 1st Period, and the 'Yotes once toward the end of the same period. Then the Wings scored again about two minutes into the 2nd. And the 'Yotes scored in the closing seconds of that same period. No need to "hold them in". They never relinquished the lead.

What about Dallas? Edmonton? Anaheim?

You also might want to take a second gander at some of those Games, Shady.

In many of them....not all....but many......

When Howard is in net, the Wings get BETTER defensively as the Game wears on, locking it down and allowing fewer shots on net in the later periods when they're either trying to protect the lead, or trying to keep a deficit from getting any larger.

When Osgood is in net, they tend to keep it tight early on, and then open it up later in the Game, trusting that Oz will hold the fort while they go balls out trying to score. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Bear in mind that that's a LOT more dangerous chance to take when you're facing San Jose, or Nashville, or New Jersey than it is against a Team like Columbus, or Anaheim, or even Colorado who, (despite their good record), happen to have a terrible 3rd Period goal differential, allowing 16 more goals than they score in the 3rd. For reference? Their goal differential in the 1st Period is 39/32. In the 2nd Period it's 50/35. It's 33/49 in the 3rd.

The one real knock on the Avs this Season is that their young Team has had a real problem either holding the lead, or taking the lead, in the 3rd Period.

On Thursday night, they were able to tie it up but, (as has been typical for them all year), they were unable to keep their opponent from outscoring them in the 3rd.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Outsider

[Outsider 42]

I'd say that practice is a good place to have a "real opportunity", as it is with most healthy scratches. Apparently, Babcock isn't impressed. Obviously, you are a better judge of performance you haven't seen. Tell me if the next season of Dexter will be any good.

Hmmm.....I don't recall Babcock stating that he wanted Osgood to "get better". His exact words were....."the best you can be."

From MLive

Ayup.....those were his words, alright....(from the link....)....

"It’s about being the best you can be. He knows all this"

Yes. Ozzie DOES know all this. Which is exactly what he said in the article on the first page. He also knows that the only way to GET to "the best he can be" is to PLAY.

Hmmmm.....I wonder why so many fans don't lament early season "sluggishness" from their entire Team. Why the popular argument is always "It's early. Wait until they've had a chance to gel, and get warmed up. By mid-season they'll be fine." Could it be that they recognize that it's not really realistic to expect these guys to be THE BEST THEY CAN BE until they've got a few Games under their belts?

Nah! Impossible.

And before you go stating that it IS mid-Season, and Osgood STILL is not at his best.....

Kindly remember that for Osgood, he hasn't SEEN any Games since the beginning of the Season. He's played in NINE Games in the past TWO MONTHS. Expecting him to be "the best he can be" based on nothing more than PRACTICE, is both ridiculous, and unrealistic.

That's what he is saying. And I agree with him.

[Outsider 42]

You actually reminded me of something I wanted to say there.

There are no stats that show the one thing Howard has been better than Osgood at. When you're down, 1-0, the team knows they have a chance to grab the lead back. If they can't score, there's not much that the goalie can do. But when we do tie it, 1-1, Howard holds the tie better, allowing the Wings to go up 2-1. Osgood lets in the most untimely goals, the ones that kill momentum, that kill the Wings morale. Howard has not been doing that.

I really believe, that's what Babs wants out of Ozzie. No early goals (first 10 minutes) and no untimely goals (right after we tie, right after we grab the lead). Osgood's play has, at times, killed our confidence, which Howard rarely does. Dallas is a game where he did. I can list 10 times that Osgood did that, end result doesn't matter.

I'm with Doc. I'd like to see your take on the "10 times", too.

[Shady Ultima 40]

Let me have some time to go back and do the actual research.

The Vancouver game where he gave up 2 in the first 10 minutes is one though. Started the team off on a bad foot.

The thing you were saying about how with Howard in net they play tighter D with a lead in the 3rd is interesting though. That's the STYLE of the Wings. Watch the majority of our games in the past. We would score a few in the first 2... and then tighten it up for the 3rd to kill the opposing team. Even in the playoffs we were doing that.

Now, with Osgood, we're tight in the first... and then we're down, so for period 2 and 3 we're playing catchup.

I'd rather they play Offense at first and defense later, because that's the way we played when we had a healthy team.

[Pucks 66]

No worries. I shouldn't get bent out of shape about it, but the Ozzy drama has been going on so long here.

I'd like to think when he retires, that will be the end of it. But I'm sure Jimmy and whoever else we have in net will only fill the void of arguing about goaltending here.

I think he's one of the most polarizing players to ever play in Detroit. Some want him enshrined, some want him drawn and quartered. I try to remind myself that his salary is smaller than most starters, so he provides value. I think we all just want to ice the best team possible regardless of the name on the back.

[thedisappearer 291]

Hmmmm.....I wonder why so many fans don't lament early season "sluggishness" from their entire Team. Why the popular argument is always "It's early. Wait until they've had a chance to gel, and get warmed up. By mid-season they'll be fine." Could it be that they recognize that it's not really realistic to expect these guys to be THE BEST THEY CAN BE until they've got a few Games under their belts?

Nah! Impossible.

And before you go stating that it IS mid-Season, and Osgood STILL is not at his best.....

Kindly remember that for Osgood, he hasn't SEEN any Games since the beginning of the Season. He's played in NINE Games in the past TWO MONTHS. Expecting him to be "the best he can be" based on nothing more than PRACTICE, is both ridiculous, and unrealistic.

That's what he is saying. And I agree with him.

I think you need a nap. You're getting cranky.

[Rivalred 630]

I think you need a nap. You're getting cranky.

I agree with Outsider. Osgood needs to play to get to reach his potential and your post does not add any fact/base to the thread.

[Outsider 42]

Let me have some time to go back and do the actual research.

The Vancouver game where he gave up 2 in the first 10 minutes is one though. Started the team off on a bad foot.

The thing you were saying about how with Howard in net they play tighter D with a lead in the 3rd is interesting though. That's the STYLE of the Wings. Watch the majority of our games in the past. We would score a few in the first 2... and then tighten it up for the 3rd to kill the opposing team. Even in the playoffs we were doing that.

Now, with Osgood, we're tight in the first... and then we're down, so for period 2 and 3 we're playing catchup.

I'd rather they play Offense at first and defense later, because that's the way we played when we had a healthy team.

Mmmmm.....Nope. Gonna haveta go 'head and disagree with that.

Firstly, go back through the Game Logs last Season. Both Osgood's Games and Conklin's Games. The Wings typically, (definitely not always, but typically), allowed fewer shots in 1st periods, more shots in the 2nd, and then opened it up in the 3rd. As a matter of fact, it appears as though the 2nd period is where they really allowed the most shots against per game. That's regardless of whether is was Osgood or Conklin in net.

Secondly, this:

That's the STYLE of the Wings. Watch the majority of our games in the past. We would score a few in the first 2... and then tighten it up for the 3rd to kill the opposing team. Even in the playoffs we were doing that.

This is not the past, where the Wings had the Offensive fire-power to "score a few in the first 2" OR to "tighten it up in the 3rd to kill the opposing Team".

They've got 200+ goals from "the past" either on Injured Reserve, OR playing elsewhere. They've also got both Kronwall and Ericsson on IR, and are trying to "kill" the other Team Defensively with a Lidstrom who is obviously not himself, with Lebs getting more ice time, and with Meech and Janik on the blue-line.

What has worked "in the past" is not necessarily what will work now.

It been relatively successful against Teams like Columbus, St. Louis, and the like. It's been a crap shoot against the better Teams in the League.

[Outsider 42]

I think you need a nap. You're getting cranky.

Refute it, please.

[Statts 4]

I agree with Outsider. Osgood needs to play to get to reach his potential and your post does not add any fact/base to the thread.

I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that point, but at what cost? At this point in the season, with the Wings in the position they are in, should the Wings pull a hot Howard in favor of a cold Osgood?

[Vladifan 680]

You are wrong, he is wrong! We are all wrong!

Do not look at me in that tone of voice.

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of many, except when it comes to goals

Who ya wanna be? I do wish I was an astronaut (do hope you know I am teasing)

Alright; back to reality.

This entire team needs to stay focused and not dwell on the "look at me" factor. The team does not need any conflict at the moment, all the injuries have caused enough.

#1 Bolded: LOVED all those movies, especially the newest one. Thanks for the fond memories.

#2 Bolded: Ecshhhualllly, I wanted to be a doctor until I found out I had to take a lot of chemistry and physics (the educational kind) to move on. And yeah, I know you were teasing and it's fahn by me.

[Outsider 42]

I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that point, but at what cost? At this point in the season, with the Wings in the position they are in, should the Wings pull a hot Howard in favor of a cold Osgood?

Jeeeebus H. Christos on a pogo stick.....

Once again....ad nauseum.....becuase you, and most others, simply do NOT appear to be "getting it".....

Howard's level of "hotness" has come against some terrible Teams, during the EASIEST portion of this Season's schedule.

You, and others, are ASSUMING that that "hotness" will continue unchecked, and with the same "excellent' results of SIX AND FIVE, against some of the BEST Teams in the League.

Once again....

His "excellent", "hot" streak netted a record of SIX AND FIVE. Regardless of how much of that was entirely HIS fault, it is what it is. Did he steal any? No. He played "well enough" to keep his Team in Games.....against primarily botter feeder Teams.

Will he be able to do the same against the Chicago's and San Jose's and Pittsburgh's of the League? We don't know. But what we DO know is this:

His "excellent' "hot" performance against Chicago resulted in THREE GOALS on 31 shots against, when his Team was the rested Team, and the 'Hawks were the tired Team, and with plenty of ice time under his belt to get him warmed up for that Game.

Osgood's "crappy" performance aganist Chicago resulted in THREE GOALS on THIRTY FIVE shots against, when his Team was the TIRED Team, and the 'Hawks were the rested Team, and with ZERO ice time under his belt, coming in cold off the bench.

Do we know if Howard, on top of his Game, can "steal" Games against the better/best Teams in the League? Nope. No clue. But past history, even the very recent past history, points toward "probably not" at this point in his career.

Do we know that Osgood, on top of HIS Game, can "steal" Games against the better/best Teams in the League? Yep. You BETCHA he can. Can and HAS.

So....I'd suggest we get the bastard IN there, and GET him "on top of his Game". Because that's where the Wings NEED him to be. And he ain't gonna GET there in freakin' practice, NOR on the bench.

And Osgood's "cold" streak isn't as bad as you'd like to make it out to be. Osgood's "cold streak" has netted a total of 3 of a possible 6 points from some of the BETTER/BEST Teams in the League, all while coming OFF the bench, COLD. Get him warmed up, and he'll be better!

What part of that is so mysteriously incomprehensible to some of you folks?

[thedisappearer 291]

Refute it, please.

Refute that you are cranky and need a nap?

[thedisappearer 291]

Randomly Capitalizing words and Using CAPS LOCK for no valid Reason EQUALS internet WIN.

[Carman 387]

Howard has just been a lot better in every way then Osgood. Osgood needs to retire and become an equipment manager for Jimmy, maybe even a personal chef.

[Outsider 42]

Refute that you are cranky and need a nap?

Refute the argument, td.

[Outsider 42]

Randomly Capitalizing words and Using CAPS LOCK for no valid Reason EQUALS internet WIN.

Not that it matters, td, but it's how I emote in text format.

Some people use the infernal, ridiculous little smilie bastards....known as EMOTicons.

I categorically, on principle, refuse to use them. Therefore I "roll my eyes", "rant", looked "confused", and laugh my ASS off at some people.....With formatted text.

Just a different manner of posting, really. Oh....and the "random" capitalization isn't "random".

League. Team. Game. Win. Play Offs. Post Season. Season. Cup. Coach. Management. Organization. Captain.

They appear "random" to you. They're not, I assure you.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Outsider

[Outsider 42]

Howard has just been a lot better in every way then Osgood. Osgood needs to retire and become an equipment manager for Jimmy, maybe even a personal chef.

That's totally unfair, Carman.

You're just assuming that Chris can cook.

[thedisappearer 291]

Refute the argument, td.

Ok.

*points to the stats

Howard's are better, across the board, in damn near every category.

[Carman 387]

That's totally unfair, Carman.

You're just assuming that Chris can cook.

Hey you're assuming that Chris can still be an elite goaltender. I'm just joining the party.