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Travis

Norris Finalists Announced

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If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard.

I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck.

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I was reading some of the comments on TSN and saw this gem:

Great Picks! No Overrated players this year! I think anyone of the finalist would be a great choice. For everybody that thinks Green is such a defensive liability, how does +35 sound! It doesn't matter what team you play for in the NHL if you put up those kind plus/minus numbers you are doing something right. Finally!!! Some good young defenseman that can put up points, the league has been stagnate for that past ten years since the likes of leetch, bourque and coffey were in their prime. Defenseman have been winning the Norris with 40 points (ie Lidstrom, great defenseman but if he was in the league with the three above mentioned names he might have won 'one' Norris!)

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If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard.

I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck.

To whom are you replying? I only saw one post that thought that Lids was maybe a third-place choice. The rest of us just think he's a great d-man whose play may not be what it was when he was young, but is still a fantastic player who we would take over pretty much anyone in a heartbeat.

That he is not a Norris contender is not a statement that he is no good, nor are we upset about this. As you say, it's a changing of the guard. Nick still brings leadership, hockey smarts, grace under fire, and a very high level of play. No homer glasses here.

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To whom are you replying? I only saw one post that thought that Lids was maybe a third-place choice. The rest of us just think he's a great d-man whose play may not be what it was when he was young, but is still a fantastic player who we would take over pretty much anyone in a heartbeat.

That he is not a Norris contender is not a statement that he is no good, nor are we upset about this. As you say, it's a changing of the guard. Nick still brings leadership, hockey smarts, grace under fire, and a very high level of play. No homer glasses here.

The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore.

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If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard.

I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck.

Analogy fail.

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The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore.

Lidstrom is not the best in the game anymore. If you think this then you=homer, pure and simple.

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The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore.

Ah, gotcha. :thumbup: I was just looking at the thread.

In many ways, he is still the best, but in others age has taken its toll.

He may not be the best overall, but he is still the best in a lot of areas. No surprise that he wasn't nominated, but not ready to be put out to pasture yet either.

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The general feel (not on this thread in general but the whole website) is that everyone still thinks Lids is the best in the game. While he is still good he just simply isn't the greatest anymore.

I've said this before, but for me, there's still not a defenseman in this league I'd take over Nick in the last minute of a game whether it's a tie game or a 1 goal game either way. His play is still nothing short of spectacular.

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I've said this before, but for me, there's still not a defenseman in this league I'd take over Nick in the last minute of a game whether it's a tie game or a 1 goal game either way. His play is still nothing short of spectacular.

Yeah but over the course of a full regular season I would probably rather have Keith or Doughty. Well doughty for sure. The problem is is that the game isn't only one minute, its an 82 game grind and age has taken its toll on Nick.

Analogy fail.

Thanks for the input on the thread.

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I'm a HUGE fan of Doughty but you can't argue if either Doughty or Keith win.

As for Green, I'll hold my comments to myself.

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Out of these three, Keith should prolly win. Best overall game, now in his prime, etc..

Puck Daddy favors Doughty:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Norris-Trophy-Finalists-Green-vs-Doughty-vs-K;_ylt=AikQ2RY1WTQc0VHh9VlA..3CfgM6?urn=nhl,236318

...

There are a couple of numbers that I couldn't get past for Mike Green. First, he was on the ice for more goals-against at even strength (50) than Doughty (45) in fewer games, and Doughty had a better goals-against-per-60-minutes of even-strength hockey (1.95) than Green (2.36) and Keith (2.77).

Keith played against the toughest opponents 5-on-5, with a Quality of Competition rating of 0.081. (Head here for an explanation for how it's computed.) Doughty's (0.027) was higher than Green's (0.005). All stats are via Behind the Net.

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I figured Keith would be a finalist, pleasantly surprised to see Doughty in the running, disappointed that Green is being considered.

I feel strongly that Keith will win this year, but Doughty will likely win multiple times before his career is over, he's just that good. Maybe not the best shutdown defenseman, but as others have said he is highly visible when on the ice, has great hockey sense and no glaring weaknesses.

As far as I am concerned, Mike Green is basically a forward playing the point, and since Washington plays like they are on the power play all game, he never gets to play his true position. In all seriousness, he is a defensive liability on a good day, on a bad day he is painful to watch (just see the highlight package from game 2 of the Montreal series above), the only reason he is more than an afterthought is because of his numbers, which admittedly are impressive but are misleading if you ignore his play in the defensive zone.

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If you take off the Homer glasses guys its easy to see that Lids didn't really deserve to win or really get nominated. Its an award for best defenseman, Nick has been shakier then usual this year on the defensive end with almost no offensive output. Doughty and Keith are both deserving, not Green however. Nick simply isn't the best in the game anymore, its a changing of the guard.

I'm pretty sure its awarded to the best defenseman not best defensive defenseman. Noone has ever said defenseman aren't supposed to put up points too, just like forwards aren't supposed to just forecheck.

Yes, it's awarded to the best all-around defenseman. No, Lidstrom has not been as good this year as he was three or five years ago.

That doesn't mean he's not one of the three best defensemen in the league.

Duncan Keith deserves the Norris. He deserved to be a first teamer last year and he deserves the Norris this year. Drew Doughty deserves to be nominated as well. But Mike Green being nominated is a joke. An absolute joke.

Even just looking at offensive performance, his offensive performance was worse than last season despite the fact the other four members of the top unit were more productive offensively. The support cast of the Capitals was also better offensively, leading to a team that scored more goals than any team in fifteen years. A 50-goal increase by his team, and despite that his offensive performance was worse even as a key offensive cog on that team.

Lidstrom started the season poorly (mainly offensively, and that's why it was widely noticed). But he was playing as well as any defenseman in the league by mid November and from that point on. Unfortunately when a guy like Lidstrom is playing well, there are no "Lidstrom is doing really well, doesn't feel he is in a slump he has to break out of" articles that people who don't watch the Wings read.

Green is a good offensive defenseman. But seriously, I find it hard to say he's that much better, if better at all, than Brian Rafalski. Lidstrom over Green ten out of ten, Kronwall over Green ten out of ten. Swap Rafalski for Green and see what happens. A speedy defenseman with a hard, accurate shot? Rafalski would probably put up better numbers than Green does, given the fact Green is not as slick a playmaker and Rafalski would be even more deadly if feeding Ovechkin and Semin on the PP.

Keith, Lidstrom, Doughty, Weber, Boyle would have probably been my ballot. Others in consideration would have been Kronwall, Pronger, Kaberle, Pitkanen, Ehrhoff, Chara, and perhaps Streit and Bouwmeester.

egroen, puckbags and 55fan like this

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I was talking to a friend today about the nominees for the Norris.

I mentioned that it was crazy for the first time in what seemed like forever that Norris Nick wasn't on the ballot...

I also mentioned that it is stupid that Green is on the ballot, and that I hoped that the trophy would not turn into "the defenseman with the most points" award.

What he said really shocked me... he said that when Lidstrom started winning the Norris... it was only because he was putting up so many points, and not being a real defensive defenseman

I didn't even know how to respond to that...

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Keith was better and deserves it.

Doughty should be second (he was not as good defensively as Keith but was incredibly flashy and is noticed every time he is on the ice), with either Lidstrom or Pronger (maybe) as third.

Green's offense on a purely offensive team does not deserve a mention at all.

Agreed, and somewhere Paul Coffey is smiling.

In all seriousness there needs to be an award for the best defensive Dman...I know it's a redundant topic, but IMHO guys like Green getting nominated is a slap in the face for guys who actually play in their own end of the ice.

They are really going to need a Bobby Orr award if they are going to nominate players like Green. Like the opposite of a Selke, best offensive defenseman instead of defensive forward. Green is absolute s*** on defense, period. Half the goals Stamkos scored this season were when he was playing the point I believe, what stops them from nominating him?

There ya go :thumbup:

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Yes, it's awarded to the best all-around defenseman. No, Lidstrom has not been as good this year as he was three or five years ago.

That doesn't mean he's not one of the three best defensemen in the league.

Duncan Keith deserves the Norris. He deserved to be a first teamer last year and he deserves the Norris this year. Drew Doughty deserves to be nominated as well. But Mike Green being nominated is a joke. An absolute joke.

Even just looking at offensive performance, his offensive performance was worse than last season despite the fact the other four members of the top unit were more productive offensively. The support cast of the Capitals was also better offensively, leading to a team that scored more goals than any team in fifteen years. A 50-goal increase by his team, and despite that his offensive performance was worse even as a key offensive cog on that team.

Lidstrom started the season poorly (mainly offensively, and that's why it was widely noticed). But he was playing as well as any defenseman in the league by mid November and from that point on. Unfortunately when a guy like Lidstrom is playing well, there are no "Lidstrom is doing really well, doesn't feel he is in a slump he has to break out of" articles that people who don't watch the Wings read.

Green is a good offensive defenseman. But seriously, I find it hard to say he's that much better, if better at all, than Brian Rafalski. Lidstrom over Green ten out of ten, Kronwall over Green ten out of ten. Swap Rafalski for Green and see what happens. A speedy defenseman with a hard, accurate shot? Rafalski would probably put up better numbers than Green does, given the fact Green is not as slick a playmaker and Rafalski would be even more deadly if feeding Ovechkin and Semin on the PP.

Keith, Lidstrom, Doughty, Weber, Boyle would have probably been my ballot. Others in consideration would have been Kronwall, Pronger, Kaberle, Pitkanen, Ehrhoff, Chara, and perhaps Streit and Bouwmeester.

Lidstrom hasn't been that great defensively either this year compared to usual. You can really tell he's getting old. Instead of being the elite of the elite in the league he's starting to look like just an average number 1 defenseman. He's been making turnovers you would have never seen last season. He's just not the same guy, and I'm really not surprised Green is nominated over him. Is Green better? No, but he is putting up huge numbers so he's getting an honourable mention. Lids really didn't deserve top 3 honestly.

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i'm fine with those three

as long as green doesn't win ;)

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Keith, Lidstrom, Doughty, Weber, Boyle would have probably been my ballot. Others in consideration would have been Kronwall, Pronger, Kaberle, Pitkanen, Ehrhoff, Chara, and perhaps Streit and Bouwmeester.

Bouwmeester? Lmao, are you kidding me? Where do you come up with this stuff? He was a total bust in Calgary this year, he did nothing offensively, was terrible defensively, it was his worst season in the NHL so far. Can you provide some details as is why he would even be mentioned in the top 20 d men in the league this year. s*** I think I would put Rafalski ahead of him this year !

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No surprises here. Top 3 in points as well. Ho-hum.

I don't like Pronger, but he got snubbed this year. He's been better than 2 of those guys and imo you could make a case for him being #1.

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Thats another -1 for Green right now. Lol.

Since people seem to think his +/- stat during the regular season is worthless, what exactly does that tell us? ;)

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