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I do.

rose-colored-glasses.jpg

lol +1

i should have said that he strikes me as the type that would take well below market to join any good organization. us, chicago, vancouver, san jose, pittsburgh, etc.

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lol +1

i should have said that he strikes me as the type that would take well below market to join any good organization. us, chicago, vancouver, san jose, pittsburgh, etc.

I think he's a good fit in Nashville, personally.. Trotz system and his play were made for eachother.

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I think he's a good fit in Nashville, personally.. Trotz system and his play were made for eachother.

As much as I'd like to see him here, he seems to be comfortable with Weber in Nashville. He seems to get along with the coaching staff. I don't think he's going anywhere. If anything, he may take a cut to stay in Nashville.

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Suter will be back with nashville if he didn't have any issues with the coaching.

Ya I don't think he's going anywhere but damn he would be nice to have

Of the current roster and prospects expected to be with the team, we have 10 players signed beyond next year, for about $28M. We can probably figure a cap number around $62-65M, assuming the hard cap stays in the next CBA. We have great long-term flexibility, even if we get a couple higher priced guys this year.

We could be looking at something like this in two years (I didn't bother to look up the FAs, so I just filled in prices mostly. And I think my raises and FA prices are pretty liberal.):

FORWARDS

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Brooks Laich ($4.000m)

Johan Franzen ($3.954m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)

Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Helm ($2.500m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)

Jan Mursak ($0.550m) / Abby ($1.750m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.250m)

/ Some Guy ($0.850m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

DEFENSEMEN

Kronner ($5.000m) / Brent Burns ($6.500m)

Stuie ($4.500m) / James Wisniewski ($4.750m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,536,211; BONUSES: $260,000

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $463,789

So we can pick up Wis and Laich, who would both fit our needs nicely this coming season, AND still sign a premier defenseman next summer AND keep our key FAs AND add a couple decent role players, if not even more. And that's not even considering the ability to trade someone to free space.

I really like this roster

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I really like this roster

I prefer one where we A: have someone other than Wiz, and B: Kindl has played well enough to be a full time D-man by that point.

Edited by Datsyerberger

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This is the last time that I'm going to attempt to explain reason to you...because it's looking more and more like an exercise in futility.

#1) I never at any point said that Jovanovski was a better player than Ehrhoff, Bieksa or Wiz. Please post the quote in full if you think I did. I did suggest that Jovanovski would be a better signing than those three because he would come cheaper, and on a one year deal - which would give us more money to pursue someone like Suter next off-season. I still stand by that ---> that him and his short contract would be our best option.

#2) Like I said before, I'm not getting into the money issue with you. It's obvious. It's simple. You don't get it. I don't care that you don't get it. And I don't feel like wasting half an hour explaining it to you.

Wow, your short term memory is a real doozie. Look, the posts are numbered so this should be easy. In the post numbered 21, you responded to a comment I made about why it was dumb to sign Jovanovski or Selanne because they were too old, by saying that we could either sign a "good" player, presumably Jovanovski or Selanne, or a "mediocre" player, presumably Bieksa, Erhoff, or Wizniewski considering I mentioned those players (by name, in the post that you were responding to) as being better options than Jovanovski. AGAIN, THE POSTS ARE NUMBERED. IT WAS YOUR POST. #21.

Also, in post #19 I asked the forum "if I was missing something" because I thought it was a dumb idea to sign Selanne and Jovanovski. You responded by saying that there were no better UFAs in this year's class to sign, and according to you, that's what I was missing. Now, you're saying that Erhoff, Bieksa, and Wiz are better. But in POST #19, when I said it was dumb to sign Jovanovski, you said it was smart to sign him because there were a lack of better FAs available this year. #19.

I was starting to get really irritated by this constant back and forth until I realized, while looking at other forums, that you're the same guy who was in favor of signing Joni Pitkanen about three days ago. You believed it was a good idea to sign him, long term, in spite of his "consistancy issue". After everybody on this sight told you what a terrible idea that was, you've moved on to Jovanovski (and very stubbornly, I might add). After reading this I realized, you have no idea what you're talking about. It is likely that as soon as someone (obviously not me) convinces you that Jovanovski is also very inconsistant, overpriced (he's not taking much of a cut, if any), fairly old, and dogged by injuries, you'll probably be on to the next guy. May I suggest Roman Hamerlik? Eventually, through a process of excruciating elimination, you'll finally realize that Wizniewski, Bieksa, or Erhoff are the best options, and all will be right with the world.

Sad as it is to say, the real loser here is me. I'm the dumb one. I can't believe I just spent this much time debating with someone who suggested signing Ed Jovanovski and Teemu Selanne. It should have been obvious you didn't have a clue the second you proposed that humdinger of an idea.

Edited by kipwinger

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You seem to at least be getting a little closer to understanding reason...so I'll go ahead and respond again:

Wow, your short term memory is a real doozie. Look, the posts are numbered so this should be easy. In the post numbered 21, you responded to a comment I made about why it was dumb to sign Jovanovski or Selanne because they were too old, by saying that we could either sign a "good" player, presumably Jovanovski or Selanne, or a "mediocre" player, presumably Bieksa, Erhoff, or Wizniewski considering I mentioned those players (by name, in the post that you were responding to) as being better options than Jovanovski. AGAIN, THE POSTS ARE NUMBERED. IT WAS YOUR POST. #21.

...In that post, I wasn't even considering Bieksa or Ehrhoff in the long-term contract player category...because both will get so much money (like, 7m a season) that they won't even be options for us. If you read through the entire thread thoroughly, instead of jumping to argument-starting conclusions, you would have realized that. I was placing Wiz in that category, however, as his contract would be affordable. He was better than Jovanovski this last season, yes. But I still see him as a risky 'one-hit-wonder' option, and I wouldn't want to give him a long-term contract. Hence, the 'mediocre' label.

Also, in post #19 I asked the forum "if I was missing something" because I thought it was a dumb idea to sign Selanne and Jovanovski. You responded by saying that there were no better UFAs in this year's class to sign, and according to you, that's what I was missing. Now, you're saying that Erhoff, Bieksa, and Wiz are better. But in POST #19, when I said it was dumb to sign Jovanovski, you said it was smart to sign him because there were a lack of better FAs available this year. #19.

...Again, Bieksa and Ehrhoff aren't going to be options once they start getting 7m a season offers. And I've already said my piece with Wisniewski.

I was starting to get really irritated by this constant back and forth until I realized, while looking at other forums, that you're the same guy who was in favor of signing Joni Pitkanen about three days ago. You believed it was a good idea to sign him, long term, in spite of his "consistancy issue". After everybody on this sight told you what a terrible idea that was, you've moved on to Jovanovski (and very stubbornly, I might add). After reading this I realized, you have no idea what you're talking about. It is likely that as soon as someone (obviously not me) convinces you that Jovanovski is also very inconsistant, overpriced (he's not taking much of a cut, if any), fairly old, and dogged by injuries, you'll probably be on to the next guy. May I suggest Roman Hamerlik? Eventually, through a process of excruciating elimination, you'll finally realize that Wizniewski, Bieksa, or Erhoff are the best options, and all will be right with the world.

...Again, a lack of reading comprehension skills, and your rush to get into internet arguments is making you look foolish here. Go back. Read the post thoroughly. I belive I started off the post by admitting that "I haven't seen much of Carolina the last few seasons," said that I'd "read good things about Pitkanen," and asked the board "what they thought of him." I then learned a lot about him from people that had actually watched him play, and changed my mind. Seems like a pretty productive process to me. Jovanovski I have seen a lot of. And I do really like as a one-year signing.

Sad as it is to say, the real loser here is me. I'm the dumb one. I can't believe I just spent this much time debating with someone who suggested signing Ed Jovanovski and Teemu Selanne. It should have been obvious you didn't have a clue the second you proposed that humdinger of an idea.

...Don't argue with people that are smarter than you.

Edited by blueadams

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...Again, Bieksa and Ehrhoff aren't going to be options once they start getting 7m a season offers. And I've already said my piece with Wisniewski.

:o

Really, blue? 7 million. c'mon now. :rolleyes:

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:o

Really, blue? 7 million. c'mon now. :rolleyes:

Wait, it gets better. After they sign with other teams for seven million each, Selanne will leave the team he wants to retire with, and Jovanovski will take a massive pay cut to leave a team and city that he's happy with, and then the Wings will sign them both and be back in the hunt. This is only logical after all. Thank god he's the smart one here (and clearly not prone to whimsically imagining outrageous salaries and FA destinations and acquisitions without any sort of historical precedent).

Edited by kipwinger
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Wait, it gets better. After they sign with other teams for seven million each, Selanne will leave the team he wants to retire with, and Jovanovski will take a massive pay cut to leave a team and city that he's happy with, and then the Wings will sign them both and be back in the hunt. This is only logical after all. Thank god he's the smart one here (and clearly not prone to whimsically imagining outrageous salaries and FA destinations and acquisitions without any sort of historical precedent).

#1) Even if Jovanovski wants 5mil, we'll be able to give it to him, and it'll still be a good one year investment, with no long-term strings attatched. And there has been no lack of speculation in the media about him wanting to leave Pheonix to win a cup.

#2) I've maintained with each mentioning of Selanne that it'd be a long shot because he loves ANA, and has an outside chance of winning a cup there next season. It'd take a big salary, or Paul Kariya, to get him.

Nice baseless shot though :)

Like I said...don't argue with me.

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I still think a 5 year Wiz is our best investment this season. I wouldn't mind seeing Jovo or Selanne here since they would both fill a role that the Wings lacked last season. The reason I think Wiz would be a nice 5 year plan is, Holland would still have plenty of money to persue Suter next year, plus re-sign Stuart and Kronwall (which I expect done before July 1, 2012.) That way if Lids does retire, there is one less glaring hole to fill with Wiz here long term. If Holland can land a Suter or Burns, you better believe they wouldn't just be one year deals and you would have a top four of Kronwall, Suter(Burns), Stuart, Wiz for four or more years with Kindl and Smith as well... Players like Selanne or Jovo can be one year fill in's to try to win a Cup, but someone as young as Wiz, you gotta sign him up thru his prime, and if it takes $4M to $4.5M to do it, then do it. how about a 5 year $23M contract? Then when Lids retires (and the Cap goes up again in 2012 (if there is a hard cap)) Holland can re-sign Kronwall for $5-6M and Stuart to $4-$5MM and still have a great amount of money to offer a Suter or Burns long term deals. (if they are still available) Bertuzzi and Holmstrom will be off the books, Hudler (if not traded) will either earn a fatter contract by returning to form or he'll fall off the book (or re-sign for FAR less) Abby and Helm will probably top $2M as RFA's (which will wash Bert and Homer)

This could happen for 2012, but this season coming up I do believe Wiz is worth a long term deal and anyone else should be one year investments...

Edited by LeftWinger
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Not opposed if we replace with an equal or better forward without sacrificing too much cap hit we need for D.

Based upon what criteria?

Filppula hasn't been able to carry the second line. If he would produce more, Datsyuk and Zetterberg could stay together on a full-time basis. When they're split up, it's because the Wings need production from 2 lines and Filppula is not a #2 center.

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I prefer one where we A: have someone other than Wiz, and B: Kindl has played well enough to be a full time D-man by that point.

I just realized that I looked at that roster without Lidstrom being on there *shutter* and I agree with you. I would like to have a stud Dman to replace Lidstrom. Someone who I think would be Bouwmeester, he is fast and young.... I know he hasn't played all that great in Calgary but he is someone who would fill a #1 role here nicely

EDIT: just realized he is signed for a few more years in Calgary AND has a NTC so we can't even trade for him :( Also, his contract sucks...... sigh

Edited by Never_Retire_Steve

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Filppula hasn't been able to carry the second line. If he would produce more, Datsyuk and Zetterberg could stay together on a full-time basis. When they're split up, it's because the Wings need production from 2 lines and Filppula is not a #2 center.

Second line offensive players are by their very natures streaky. This is why they tend to be 2nd line players and not 1st liners. Filppula is a 2nd line C by every measure. In the top 60 centers for PPG, in the top 30 for ES PPG, and in the upper 1/3 of those players defensively. The reason Dats and Z get split up is because it's sometimes more favorable to be stacked incredibly deep and roll 3 scoring lines instead of frontloading the offense, to break up matchups.

I just realized that I looked at that roster without Lidstrom being on there *shutter* and I agree with you. I would like to have a stud Dman to replace Lidstrom. Someone who I think would be Bouwmeester, he is fast and young.... I know he hasn't played all that great in Calgary but he is someone who would fill a #1 role here nicely

EDIT: just realized he is signed for a few more years in Calgary AND has a NTC so we can't even trade for him :( Also, his contract sucks...... sigh

Next offseason, Burns would be perfect. No idea what's going to happen between now and then, but I'm cautiously optimistic. If we've gotta pay for him, so be it. Large guy, big shot, good D.. perfect partner for Kronwall for a top pairing. Kronwall re-signed anywhere from 5-6m a year, Burns a bit more, I could live with that honestly.

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ED JOVANOVSKI IS 34 YEARS OLD, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A 6 MILLION DOLLAR PER YEAR, 34 YEAR OLD HOCKEY PLAYER SIGNED A 1 YEAR CONTRACT???? If anything he'd be looking to lock up something for the remainder of his career, and do the rent a player trade for a cup. Plus, if you're going to give him 5-6 million a year for one year, why not give Wisniewski 5 million a year for three or four years and lock up your defensive corps for a couple of years. Remember everybody, when Lidstrom leaves, there is no guarantee that we'll be able to sign Suter or Burns. So going into a Burns/Suter negotiation would you rather know you've got Kronwall, Stuart, and Wisniewski all locked up for a couple years, or would you rather have Kronwall and Stuart locked up with Lidstrom retiring and Jovanovski a free agent to sign or replace the same year. (I realize we have to re-sign Kronwall and Stuart too. Realistically they'll get their raises, probably before the end of the next season).

For the amount of money it would take to sign Selanne (even though it's an incredible long shot) why not invest the money wisely and pursue Dubinsky, Laich, Scottie Upshaw, or Erik Cole, for the same or similar money and lock them up for three or four years.

Datysuk and Zetterberg aren't going to be this good forever, we've got a realistic window of opportunity to be competitive for the cup for the next 2-3 seasons before those guys are getting too old to carry the load anymore. I honestly don't see spending next year filling holes with stop gap measures(any paying a lot for those measure too), hoping for a jackpot the year after, when there are plenty good young hockey players to fill those holes. Plus this year we're in a good position. We're very close to being the most cash heavy of the competitive teams. Something that we may not be able to say in a year or two.

Edited by kipwinger

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I'd take Jovo for the 3rd pair and he'd have to take a massive pay cut to come here.

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I'd take Jovo for the 3rd pair and he'd have to take a massive pay cut to come here.

That's the point, he's not going to take a cut. He's not old enough for that yet. He's going to sign a contract like Roman Hamrlik did with Montreal in 2007 (4 years, 22 million). Hamerlik was 33 at the time and playing good hockey. Jovo is 34 now and playing good hockey. He's not going to take a massive paycut and go year to year at 34 years old. He'll do that at 37-40 when his effectiveness is limited. I have no idea why anybody thinks that Jovo would take a huge paycut. Of course he wants a cup, but he's not at the twilight of his career yet where he's got to either get paid or get a cup, at this point he can still do both. He's got a lot of decent hockey in him, he'll sign a 5-6 million dollar contract for three or four years.

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That's the point, he's not going to take a cut. He's not old enough for that yet. He's going to sign a contract like Roman Hamrlik did with Montreal in 2007 (4 years, 22 million). Hamerlik was 33 at the time and playing good hockey. Jovo is 34 now and playing good hockey. He's not going to take a massive paycut and go year to year at 34 years old. He'll do that at 37-40 when his effectiveness is limited. I have no idea why anybody thinks that Jovo would take a huge paycut. Of course he wants a cup, but he's not at the twilight of his career yet where he's got to either get paid or get a cup, at this point he can still do both. He's got a lot of decent hockey in him, he'll sign a 5-6 million dollar contract for three or four years.

Jovo may be only 34 but he has alot of tread on his tires. He's an old 34. I'd rather another team overpay for him thinking it's 1996 again. Wisniewski is the better option. He's just entering his prime and will likely get better.

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Jovo may be only 34 but he has alot of tread on his tires. He's an old 34. I'd rather another team overpay for him thinking it's 1996 again. Wisniewski is the better option. He's just entering his prime and will likely get better.

Agreed. All I'm saying is that Jovo will definitely make the money, and if they're roughly the same price, or if Wiz is cheaper, lock him up.

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Here's something interesting to check out. I was looking at Erhoff, Wisniewski, Bieksa, and Suter (for next year's class) career comparisons and I noticed something pretty striking. Their numbers are pretty much identical for all intents and purposes. They are all roughly the same age, put up the same kind of numbers, are all career plus, and average the same time on ice. Admittedly, each player is a different guy. Wisniewski is bigger and more physical than the rest, Erhoff has the best offensive numbers, Suter plays the most and has been consistently a top pair guy, etc. Obviously, each player is a different fit for each team looking to sign them, but as far as any one of them being far and away a better player than the rest statistically, or monetarily, there's just not that much difference. Here's the links to each, have a look and see what you think.

Suter...http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/_/id/3047/ryan-suter

Erhoff...http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/_/id/1965/christian-ehrhoff

Wisniewski...http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/_/id/2966/james-wisniewski

Kevin Bieksa...http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/_/id/3269/kevin-bieksa

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It doesn't matter what happens, the next year (or two) will be stop-gap years, Holland said so himself. That's why you get a Jovo for one year at whatever money because it simply doesn't matter, he's only going to be here for one year. Mr. Holland did say he'd be willing to trade for a defensemen. If he could somehow pull off getting Cam Fowler and one of Ryan Getzlaf or Corey Perry I'd s*** my pants.

Keep telling my friends it's gonna be a different 2-4 years than what we're used to but they are adamant it's not going to be. They aren't going to suck by any means but they aren't going to be the perennial favorites they usually are.

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ED JOVANOVSKI IS 34 YEARS OLD, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A 6 MILLION DOLLAR PER YEAR, 34 YEAR OLD HOCKEY PLAYER SIGNED A 1 YEAR CONTRACT????

Marian...something?? I can't remember. Think he was even younger though??

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Marian...something?? I can't remember. Think he was even younger though??

He wanted to sign long term with the Wings and we didn't have the cap space because we signed Zetterberg long term the same year and had to re-sign Franzen in the offseason. That's why he went to Chicago and signed long term. To give credit to you (can't believe I'm saying this) he did in fact sign the one year deal, although he certainly wanted more.

"Late in the regular season, on March 23, 2009, Hossa was quoted as saying he would like to sign a long-term career deal with the Red Wings for the upcoming season. He also stated he is willing to take less money to continue to play for Detroit, saying, "I know if I go somewhere else, I could have more, but I'm willing to take less to stay here. Hopefully things work out." Hossa's comments came just several months after the Red Wings signed forward Henrik Zetterberg to a twelve-year contract extension."

"On July 1, 2009, Hossa signed a 12 year contract with the Chicago Blackhawks worth $62.8 million. The contract is front-loaded with $59.3 million due in the first eight years for an average cap hit of $5.2 million per season.[28] It was also the most lucrative deal in team history until defenceman Duncan Keith signed a 13-year, $72 million contract several months later in December 2009.["

Edited by kipwinger

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#1) Even if Jovanovski wants 5mil, we'll be able to give it to him

That's the point, he's not going to take a cut. He's not old enough for that yet. He's going to sign a contract like Roman Hamrlik did with Montreal in 2007 (4 years, 22 million). Hamerlik was 33 at the time and playing good hockey. Jovo is 34 now and playing good hockey. He's not going to take a massive paycut and go year to year at 34 years old. He'll do that at 37-40 when his effectiveness is limited. I have no idea why anybody thinks that Jovo would take a huge paycut. Of course he wants a cup, but he's not at the twilight of his career yet where he's got to either get paid or get a cup, at this point he can still do both. He's got a lot of decent hockey in him, he'll sign a 5-6 million dollar contract for three or four years.

No, please dear GOD no. At no point in his career has Jovanovski been worth that much. As for right now? You do know that while Jovanovski started the season as the Yotes' #4, they acquired Klesla during the season (who played ahead of him) and rookie David Schlemko passed him on the depth chart? Would you pay $5m for the #6 defenseman from a team that had the third-worst SA/G and the fifth-worst PK? A defenseman whose ONLY purposes on his team (Jovo scored 14 points in 50 regular season games, and did not play the PP) were leadership and defense/PK?

I sure as hell wouldn't foot that bill. He's at least learned that his defensive zone exists, though, even if he still isn't very good there.

Jovo might be a good fit on the third pairing to replace Ericsson. He's got some speed, he's physical, and he's as good defensively. But I wouldn't pay him more than $1.5m to do it. Past that you can get much better players.

It doesn't matter what happens, the next year (or two) will be stop-gap years, Holland said so himself. That's why you get a Jovo for one year at whatever money because it simply doesn't matter, he's only going to be here for one year. Mr. Holland did say he'd be willing to trade for a defensemen. If he could somehow pull off getting Cam Fowler and one of Ryan Getzlaf or Corey Perry I'd s*** my pants.

Hmm.

Filppula+Franzen+1st+Axelsson for Getzlaf+Fowler+Blake+3rd

Anaheim gets two solid top-six forwards, a 1st pick, and a high-end prospect while Detroit gets a top end playmaking center, a solid defenseman, a decent winger, and a good pick. Anaheim gets rid of a bad contract, and acquires a combination of two forwards who have excellent chemistry while also cutting $4m in cap space by dumping Blake's deal, and can now replace him with a cheaper, but equally or even more skilled forward - likely a playmaking center as they now have four skilled scoring wingers in Perry, Ryan, Franzen, and Selanne.

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"No, please dear GOD no. At no point in his career has Jovanovski been worth that much. As for right now? You do know that while Jovanovski started the season as the Yotes' #4, they acquired Klesla during the season (who played ahead of him) and rookie David Schlemko passed him on the depth chart? Would you pay $5m for the #6 defenseman from a team that had the third-worst SA/G and the fifth-worst PK? A defenseman whose ONLY purposes on his team (Jovo scored 14 points in 50 regular season games, and did not play the PP) were leadership and defense/PK?

I sure as hell wouldn't foot that bill. He's at least learned that his defensive zone exists, though, even if he still isn't very good there.

Jovo might be a good fit on the third pairing to replace Ericsson. He's got some speed, he's physical, and he's as good defensively. But I wouldn't pay him more than $1.5m to do it. Past that you can get much better players."

I agree dude, I wasn't arguing in favor of Jovo, I don't want him. I'm just saying I don't think he's going to take a big paycut to go somewhere else. He'll get 5-6 million, and hopefully it won't be from us.

Edited by kipwinger

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